More speed estimation trolling

Nate Nagel > wrote in
:

> On 07/14/2012 02:08 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
>> In article
>> >,
>> gpsman > wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 13, 11:50 pm, Nate Nagel > wrote:
>>>> On 07/13/2012 12:54 PM, gpsman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 13, 11:33 am, N8N > wrote:
>>>>>> On Jul 13, 11:16 am, gpsman > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 13, 8:31 am, N8N > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 10:11 pm, gpsman > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of the various quantities a driver is called upon to judge,
>>>>>>>>> speed is the only one for which instrumented quantitative
>>>>>>>>> feedback is provided on a regular basis.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Laughable.
>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're referring to your tendency to misunderstand what you
>>>>>>> read and forward straw men I think the word you're looking for
>>>>>>> is "pitiful".
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can see oil pressure, water temperature, fuel level, and
>>>>>>>> engine RPM easily, and of those, really only engine RPM is even
>>>>>>>> easily estimable without a gauge. Depending on vehicle I might
>>>>>>>> also be seeing engine vacuum, oil temperature, and/or ATF
>>>>>>>> temperature. With a little effort I can also see things like
>>>>>>>> intake air temperature, throttle opening, A/F ratio, etc.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Straw man. The premise is not what a motorist can "see".
>>>>
>>>>>>> Many if not most vehicles have no such gauges in your...
>>>>>>> examples... other than your ridiculous inclusion of fuel, and do
>>>>>>> not provide much if anything in the way of "feedback" to
>>>>>>> operator input.
>>>>
>>>>>> Odd, all of my vehicles do, save for the company hawler, and they
>>>>>> most certainly do provide feedback. E.g. if the water temp is
>>>>>> too high, that is an indication to reduce load, turn on heater,
>>>>>> or both (and subsequently investigate what condition caused that
>>>>>> to happen in the first place.) If oil pressure is lower than
>>>>>> expected, or starts fluctuating between load/no load at a
>>>>>> constant RPM, then something needs to be investigated (and
>>>>>> drastically low oil pressure of course is an indication to pull
>>>>>> over and shut down immediately.)
>>>>
>>>>> Lol. "Regularly"...?
>>>>
>>>>>>> Oil pressure and water temp. gauges are typically only
>>>>>>> representations of "normal" and so do not provide much if any
>>>>>>> "quantitative feedback on a regular basis".
>>>>
>>>>>> Really? My oil pressure and water temperature gauges read
>>>>>> accurately, within tolerances for error and slightly but not
>>>>>> significantly damped. Yes, even the factory ones.
>>>>
>>>>> How did you determine their degrees of accuracy and lag...?
>>>>
>>>>>>> If you had an oil temp gauge it wouldn't mean anything to you.
>>>>>>> It's not as if you're going to motor more gently until the oil
>>>>>>> warms to "operating" temp.
>>>>
>>>>>> Unsupported assertion. As usual.
>>>>
>>>>> Lol. Hardly. It's supported by 10+ years of your idiocy and
>>>>> bull****.
>>>>
>>>>> You don't have the patience to lift off the throttle for a second
>>>>> for an "impaired merger", no way you're going to wait 10-20
>>>>> minutes for your engine to reach operating temp.
>>>>
>>>> If your engine requires 10-20 minutes to reach operating temp, I
>>>> would recommend replacing the thermostat, and possibly looking into
>>>> an oil-to-water heat exchanger if you live in a cold climate
>>>> (seriously, I noticed a drastic improvement in warm up time for the
>>>> oil after adding the factory GTI/GLI oil cooler to my Scirocco.)
>>>> But even without the latter, that's an awful long time.
>>>
>>> You only say that because you've never heard the adage that driving
>>> less than 20 minutes doesn't heat the oil enough to boil off the
>>> condensation that accumulates when a hot engine cools, and you've
>>> never had a digital oil temperature gauge that displays 1°
>>> increments.
>>
>> You do say the most ridiculous things. Where is there a place where
>> vapour can condense into the oil and why would it even be there if it
>> boils off when the engine reaches temp and you've just claimed that
>> it appears when a hot engine cools?
>
> Eh, it actually can happen, but when your oil temp is stabilized at
> 110-115C it's a fair bet that there's no condensed water in it. Or I
> guess now someone's going to say that VDO gauges as supplied to VW
> aren't even accurate to within 15C?
>
> nate
>

combustion creates water;you can see it coming out of the tailpipe.
that is why exhaust systems rusted from the inside out.

That is where the whitish "mayonnaise" you find in the valve covers comes
from; oil and water churned together.
along with acids from other combustion byproducts.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

In article >,
Ashton Crusher > wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:40:14 -0700, Alan Baker >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Nate Nagel > wrote:
> >
> >> On 07/14/2012 02:08 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
> >> > In article
> >> > >,
> >> > gpsman > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Jul 13, 11:50 pm, Nate Nagel > wrote:
> >> >>> On 07/13/2012 12:54 PM, gpsman wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Jul 13, 11:33 am, N8N > wrote:
> >> >>>>> On Jul 13, 11:16 am, gpsman > wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>> On Jul 13, 8:31 am, N8N > wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Jul 12, 10:11 pm, gpsman > wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Of the various quantities a driver is called upon to judge, speed
> >> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> the only one for which instrumented quantitative feedback is
> >> >>>>>>>> provided
> >> >>>>>>>> on a regular basis.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>>> Laughable.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>> If you're referring to your tendency to misunderstand what you read
> >> >>>>>> and forward straw men I think the word you're looking for is
> >> >>>>>> "pitiful".
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>>> I can see oil pressure, water temperature, fuel level, and
> >> >>>>>>> engine RPM easily, and of those, really only engine RPM is even
> >> >>>>>>> easily
> >> >>>>>>> estimable without a gauge. Depending on vehicle I might also be
> >> >>>>>>> seeing engine vacuum, oil temperature, and/or ATF temperature.
> >> >>>>>>> With a
> >> >>>>>>> little effort I can also see things like intake air temperature,
> >> >>>>>>> throttle opening, A/F ratio, etc.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>> Straw man. The premise is not what a motorist can "see".
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>> Many if not most vehicles have no such gauges in your...
> >> >>>>>> examples...
> >> >>>>>> other than your ridiculous inclusion of fuel, and do not provide
> >> >>>>>> much
> >> >>>>>> if anything in the way of "feedback" to operator input.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>> Odd, all of my vehicles do, save for the company hawler, and they
> >> >>>>> most
> >> >>>>> certainly do provide feedback. E.g. if the water temp is too high,
> >> >>>>> that is an indication to reduce load, turn on heater, or both (and
> >> >>>>> subsequently investigate what condition caused that to happen in the
> >> >>>>> first place.) If oil pressure is lower than expected, or starts
> >> >>>>> fluctuating between load/no load at a constant RPM, then something
> >> >>>>> needs to be investigated (and drastically low oil pressure of course
> >> >>>>> is an indication to pull over and shut down immediately.)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Lol. "Regularly"...?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>> Oil pressure and water temp. gauges are typically only
> >> >>>>>> representations
> >> >>>>>> of "normal" and so do not provide much if any "quantitative
> >> >>>>>> feedback
> >> >>>>>> on a regular basis".
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>> Really? My oil pressure and water temperature gauges read
> >> >>>>> accurately,
> >> >>>>> within tolerances for error and slightly but not significantly
> >> >>>>> damped. Yes, even the factory ones.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> How did you determine their degrees of accuracy and lag...?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>> If you had an oil temp gauge it wouldn't mean anything to you.
> >> >>>>>> It's
> >> >>>>>> not as if you're going to motor more gently until the oil warms to
> >> >>>>>> "operating" temp.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>> Unsupported assertion. As usual.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Lol. Hardly. It's supported by 10+ years of your idiocy and
> >> >>>> bull****.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> You don't have the patience to lift off the throttle for a second for
> >> >>>> an "impaired merger", no way you're going to wait 10-20 minutes for
> >> >>>> your engine to reach operating temp.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> If your engine requires 10-20 minutes to reach operating temp, I would
> >> >>> recommend replacing the thermostat, and possibly looking into an
> >> >>> oil-to-water heat exchanger if you live in a cold climate (seriously,
> >> >>> I
> >> >>> noticed a drastic improvement in warm up time for the oil after adding
> >> >>> the factory GTI/GLI oil cooler to my Scirocco.) But even without the
> >> >>> latter, that's an awful long time.
> >> >>
> >> >> You only say that because you've never heard the adage that driving
> >> >> less than 20 minutes doesn't heat the oil enough to boil off the
> >> >> condensation that accumulates when a hot engine cools, and you've
> >> >> never had a digital oil temperature gauge that displays 1° increments.
> >> >
> >> > You do say the most ridiculous things. Where is there a place where
> >> > vapour can condense into the oil and why would it even be there if it
> >> > boils off when the engine reaches temp and you've just claimed that it
> >> > appears when a hot engine cools?
> >>
> >> Eh, it actually can happen, but when your oil temp is stabilized at
> >> 110-115C it's a fair bet that there's no condensed water in it. Or I
> >> guess now someone's going to say that VDO gauges as supplied to VW
> >> aren't even accurate to within 15C?
> >>
> >> nate
> >
> >I'd still like to know how.
> >
> >If there's none when your oil temperature is stabilized at 110, so
> >you've driven it all out (assuming it's there)...
> >
> >...and then you continue to drive (keeping your engine at operating
> >temp)...
> >
> >...and thus keeping out any water vapour...
> >
> >...then you shut down the engine and it cools...
> >
> >...with no water vapour in it...
> >
> >...so where does the water come from to condense into the oil?
>
> I thought the presumption was that as it cooled and the vapor inside
> the engine contracted it would draw in the outside air and moisture.
> Even if true, however, it would be a very small amount. I think most
> of the "water" that gets into the oil gets there during engine warm up
> when there is some water being produced as a byproduct of the
> combustion process... most of it goes out the exhaust but I would
> think some of it is in the little bit of blowby past the piston rings.

Yup.

I'll buy that moisture can build up in an engine that makes a lot of
short trips...

....but GPSman's idiotic contention what that a vehicle that cools from
having been run at normal operating temperatures is in danger of having
significant amounts of condensed water in it the next time it's run.

Water doesn't accumulate when a hot engine cools. Water accumulates when
an engine which isn't hot is such down and the blow-by from operating it
for only a short while doesn't get boiled out during that cycle.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

In article >,
Nate Nagel > wrote:

> On 07/14/2012 04:14 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:40:14 -0700, Alan Baker >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> In article >,
> >> Nate Nagel > wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 07/14/2012 02:08 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
> >>>> In article
> >>>> >,
> >>>> gpsman > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jul 13, 11:50 pm, Nate Nagel > wrote:
> >>>>>> On 07/13/2012 12:54 PM, gpsman wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Jul 13, 11:33 am, N8N > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Jul 13, 11:16 am, gpsman > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 13, 8:31 am, N8N > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 10:11 pm, gpsman > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Of the various quantities a driver is called upon to judge, speed
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> the only one for which instrumented quantitative feedback is
> >>>>>>>>>>> provided
> >>>>>>>>>>> on a regular basis.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Laughable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If you're referring to your tendency to misunderstand what you read
> >>>>>>>>> and forward straw men I think the word you're looking for is
> >>>>>>>>> "pitiful".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I can see oil pressure, water temperature, fuel level, and
> >>>>>>>>>> engine RPM easily, and of those, really only engine RPM is even
> >>>>>>>>>> easily
> >>>>>>>>>> estimable without a gauge. Depending on vehicle I might also be
> >>>>>>>>>> seeing engine vacuum, oil temperature, and/or ATF temperature.
> >>>>>>>>>> With a
> >>>>>>>>>> little effort I can also see things like intake air temperature,
> >>>>>>>>>> throttle opening, A/F ratio, etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Straw man. The premise is not what a motorist can "see".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Many if not most vehicles have no such gauges in your...
> >>>>>>>>> examples...
> >>>>>>>>> other than your ridiculous inclusion of fuel, and do not provide
> >>>>>>>>> much
> >>>>>>>>> if anything in the way of "feedback" to operator input.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Odd, all of my vehicles do, save for the company hawler, and they
> >>>>>>>> most
> >>>>>>>> certainly do provide feedback. E.g. if the water temp is too high,
> >>>>>>>> that is an indication to reduce load, turn on heater, or both (and
> >>>>>>>> subsequently investigate what condition caused that to happen in the
> >>>>>>>> first place.) If oil pressure is lower than expected, or starts
> >>>>>>>> fluctuating between load/no load at a constant RPM, then something
> >>>>>>>> needs to be investigated (and drastically low oil pressure of course
> >>>>>>>> is an indication to pull over and shut down immediately.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lol. "Regularly"...?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Oil pressure and water temp. gauges are typically only
> >>>>>>>>> representations
> >>>>>>>>> of "normal" and so do not provide much if any "quantitative
> >>>>>>>>> feedback
> >>>>>>>>> on a regular basis".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Really? My oil pressure and water temperature gauges read
> >>>>>>>> accurately,
> >>>>>>>> within tolerances for error and slightly but not significantly
> >>>>>>>> damped. Yes, even the factory ones.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> How did you determine their degrees of accuracy and lag...?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If you had an oil temp gauge it wouldn't mean anything to you.
> >>>>>>>>> It's
> >>>>>>>>> not as if you're going to motor more gently until the oil warms to
> >>>>>>>>> "operating" temp.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Unsupported assertion. As usual.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lol. Hardly. It's supported by 10+ years of your idiocy and
> >>>>>>> bull****.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You don't have the patience to lift off the throttle for a second for
> >>>>>>> an "impaired merger", no way you're going to wait 10-20 minutes for
> >>>>>>> your engine to reach operating temp.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If your engine requires 10-20 minutes to reach operating temp, I would
> >>>>>> recommend replacing the thermostat, and possibly looking into an
> >>>>>> oil-to-water heat exchanger if you live in a cold climate (seriously,
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> noticed a drastic improvement in warm up time for the oil after adding
> >>>>>> the factory GTI/GLI oil cooler to my Scirocco.) But even without the
> >>>>>> latter, that's an awful long time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You only say that because you've never heard the adage that driving
> >>>>> less than 20 minutes doesn't heat the oil enough to boil off the
> >>>>> condensation that accumulates when a hot engine cools, and you've
> >>>>> never had a digital oil temperature gauge that displays 1° increments.
> >>>>
> >>>> You do say the most ridiculous things. Where is there a place where
> >>>> vapour can condense into the oil and why would it even be there if it
> >>>> boils off when the engine reaches temp and you've just claimed that it
> >>>> appears when a hot engine cools?
> >>>
> >>> Eh, it actually can happen, but when your oil temp is stabilized at
> >>> 110-115C it's a fair bet that there's no condensed water in it. Or I
> >>> guess now someone's going to say that VDO gauges as supplied to VW
> >>> aren't even accurate to within 15C?
> >>>
> >>> nate
> >>
> >> I'd still like to know how.
> >>
> >> If there's none when your oil temperature is stabilized at 110, so
> >> you've driven it all out (assuming it's there)...
> >>
> >> ...and then you continue to drive (keeping your engine at operating
> >> temp)...
> >>
> >> ...and thus keeping out any water vapour...
> >>
> >> ...then you shut down the engine and it cools...
> >>
> >> ...with no water vapour in it...
> >>
> >> ...so where does the water come from to condense into the oil?
> >
> > I thought the presumption was that as it cooled and the vapor inside
> > the engine contracted it would draw in the outside air and moisture.
> > Even if true, however, it would be a very small amount. I think most
> > of the "water" that gets into the oil gets there during engine warm up
> > when there is some water being produced as a byproduct of the
> > combustion process... most of it goes out the exhaust but I would
> > think some of it is in the little bit of blowby past the piston rings.
> >
>
> Blowby will by its nature contain steam which will condense as it cools.
> However in an engine with a properly functioning crankcase ventilation
> system, the amount of steam in the engine at any given time will be very
> small as it is constantly having fresh air drawn through it. There will
> be some there all the time, however.

Yup.

But it can only build up if you run the engine for short periods, so
that blow-by adds moisture and the engine never gets up to the
temperatures necessary to eliminate most of it.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

On Jul 14, 1:09*pm, Ashton Crusher > wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:23:07 -0700, Alan Baker >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article
> >,
> > gpsman > wrote:
>
> >> Of the various quantities a driver is called upon to judge, speed is
> >> the only one for which instrumented quantitative feedback is provided
> >> on a regular basis. *Each time a driver consults a speedometer, a
> >> comparison can be made between perceived and actual speed. *Such
> >> consultations are additionally motivated by the need to obey speed
> >> limits. The overlearning of this task might suggest that drivers would
> >> become very good at it.
>
> >> The ability of drivers to estimate speed without the use of a
> >> speedometer has been investigated in a number of studies.
>
> >> Shinar, McDowell, and Rockwell [1974] find that drivers instructed to
> >> maintain a nominal speed of 60 mph without the aid of a speedometer
> >> drove at an average speed of 57 mph on an open road segment compared
> >> to an average speed of 53 mph on another tree-lined segment of the
> >> same road.
>
> >As has been said over and over:
>
> >Maintaining a speed is not the same task as estimating a speed. As can
> >clearly be shown by the inability of drivers to accurately double or
> >halve a known speed, the Shinar, McDowell, Rockwell study must have had
> >drivers maintaining a speed from a given know speed.
>
> >" The ability of drivers to estimate speed without the use of a
> >speedometer has been investigated in a number of studies. *Denton [1966]
> >instructed drivers of cars with obscured speedometers to double or halve
> >an initial speed of magnitude, unknown to the subject, set by following
> >experimenter instructions. *The subjects' attempts to decelerate or
> >accelerate to halve or double these speeds were biased by large amounts
> >in the direction of the initial speed. *For example, the goal of
> >doubling an initial speed of 30 mph produced an average speed of 44 mph,
> >rather than the nominally correct 60 mph. *The goal of halving 60 mph
> >produced, on average, 38 mph. "
>
> >If estimating speed were as easy as you suggest below, then the drivers
> >should have been able to consistently get within 5kph on average.
>
> >> Milosevic [1986] and Evans [1970a] asked subjects to estimate speed
> >> without specifying where they should look, and find that subjects
> >> estimated normal driving speeds without large average systematic
> >> errors; errors averaged over all subjects tested are typically less
> >> than 5 km/h.
>
> If by "drivers estimated normal driving speeds" means they were set
> out on a road that would typically be posted for 50 mph and then asked
> to do 50 mph it's not surprising that they ran about 50 mph. *Study's
> consistently show that left to their own devices drivers typically
> drive a safe "normal" speed for a road (absent hidden conditions that
> would merit slower speeds such as concealed driveways).
>
> The fact is (IOW IMHO based on my experience) 90%+ of drivers have no
> need for posted speed limits and the only reason 90%+ of limits are
> imposed is to facilitate the collection of revenue by gvt.
>
>
>
> >So three times more than what you claim, and we don't even know for
> >certain that the findings were accurate or whether the methods of the
> >study were sufficiently well constructed to draw the conclusion you want
> >to draw.
>
> >> Noguchi [1990] instructed subjects to drive at their chosen speeds on
> >> closed roads; when the speedometer was concealed, speeds were
> >> consistently higher (in all of 14 comparisons) than when the
> >> speedometer was visible, with the overall average difference being 3
> >> km/h.
> >>http://www.scienceservingsociety.com/tsd/CH05.htm
>
> >That study quite obviously involved driving the same road twice. That
> >too, is not the same as simply estimating a speed from scratch.

Most roads are underposted, i.e., they can be safely driven much
faster than the posted. In fact the "flow" will usually be at least
10% higher than posted.

Harry K

On 7/12/2012 10:41 PM, Harry K wrote:
>
> Don't forget that you are talking to the superman of driving. He can
> do things undreamt of by mere mortals.

I can get very close to a given speed on my Honda NT700V without looking
at the speedometer, since I know it does about 14½ mph/1000 rpm in 5th
gear.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

On 7/13/2012 7:31 AM, N8N wrote:
> On Jul 12, 10:11 pm, gpsman > wrote:
>> Of the various quantities a driver is called upon to judge, speed is
>> the only one for which instrumented quantitative feedback is provided
>> on a regular basis.
>
> Laughable. I can see oil pressure, water temperature, fuel level, and
> engine RPM easily, and of those, really only engine RPM is even easily
> estimable without a gauge. Depending on vehicle I might also be
> seeing engine vacuum, oil temperature, and/or ATF temperature. With a
> little effort I can also see things like intake air temperature,
> throttle opening, A/F ratio, etc.

Dude, you need a Yamaha TW200!

<http://parrotheadjeff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DSCF0491C-640x387.jpg>

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

On 7/13/2012 11:54 AM, gpsman wrote:
> [...]
> You don't have the patience to lift off the throttle for a second for
> an "impaired merger", no way you're going to wait 10-20 minutes for
> your engine to reach operating temp.

What engine takes 10 to 20 minutes to reach operating temperature? A
marine Diesel on a container ship?

My CBR600F4i gets up to full operating temperature in the time it takes
to put on my gloves and lid, then ride the 5 blocks to the arterial
street at 3000 rpm in 1st gear. Of course, that is a crappy engine that
only develops 180 HP/L (SAE net). The NT700V, NHX110 and Civic EX
have similar warm-up times.

The Nissan Frontier with its 3.3L V-6 does take a bit longer - typically
3 to 4 minutes in summer, and 5 to 6 in winter.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
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On 7/14/2012 2:40 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
>
> I'd still like to know how.
>
> If there's none when your oil temperature is stabilized at 110, so
> you've driven it all out (assuming it's there)...
>
> ...and then you continue to drive (keeping your engine at operating
> temp)...
>
> ...and thus keeping out any water vapour...
>
> ...then you shut down the engine and it cools...
>
> ...with no water vapour in it...
>
> ...so where does the water come from to condense into the oil?
>
Raccoons taking off the oil filler cap and peeing in the filler tube
when your car is parked at night.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!