Ford, GM have discussed merger, alliance

Tenured worker, that's a vested worker with 8-12 years on the job, working
the 3-11 shift makes $50,000 a year. The 7-3 shift slightly less, the 11-7
shift slightly more. Over-time can raise that amount significantly, but
then over-time can raise anyone's wages significantly. My wife's father's
pension was $20,000 a year, plus medical when he passed away in 89. And at
that time the amount dropped almost in half for my mother in law. From the
time I met my wife in 77 till he passed away they owned 3 cars. When I met
her they had a 74 Impala. When he passed away they had an 87 S-10 Blazer.
They lived in a modest 3 bedroom house in Fenton, and then sold that and
bought a small 2 bedroom 6 year old mobile home in central Florida. Most
of her family is similar, and my family on my fathers side that worked for
GM the same. That's why I always get such a laugh when I read about these
wages. Yeah they got pension, and they got medical, and yes medical amounts
to a lot these days, but instead of screaming about them having it, why
aren't we screaming about the outrageous cost of health care? I kick myself
in the ass daily for many things, like why didn't I stay in the service, I
would have retired with 20 years some time ago, or why didn't I seek out a
job with GM when I got out of the service, I would have had more than enough
people pulling for me if I had approached any of my in laws. The real kick
is the top 10% in the company make more then the rest of the workforce
combined.

Toyota recently opened a new plant in Tenn. They got Tenn. to almost give
them the land, they got major major tax breaks, they got Tenn. to build a
mini plant next door for a training facility, Tenn. pays prospective
employee's wages while they are in training, and Tenn. pays the
"instructors" wages. What a sweat heart deal. And they hammered the same
basic deal for the new plant going in Texas, and Canada is about to give the
same and more.. If GM or Ford tried that everyone and their second cousin
would be lined up to sue them. Starting pay at the Tenn. plant is $16 an
hour, $3 less than GM or Ford, but Toyota and Honda are like Wal-mart they
pick depressed areas in right to work/work at will states to build their
plants and then demand major tax concessions to boot. Health care costs for
the employee are high, and there is no pension plan at all. 401K and stock
plans your on your own. But to the workers there it beats wal-mart or
McDonalds, never mind that in the long run they are cutting their own
throats.

I really do believe most people are quite naive about what we are up
against. They can not fathom a person with an MBA from a major university
being happy to work for $350 a month, live with his wife educated the same
and making the same, two kids and usually at least one parent in a 560
square foot apartment that only has running water for 2 hours in the morning
and 2 hours in the evening. Read Thomas L Friedman's book "The World is
Flat" its a real eye opener. It got my dad to cut up his Sams Club card
Whets going to happen when China starts importing a car selling for under
$5,000? Its going to be a piece of junk, and its going to sell like hot
cakes.

Whitelightning

"Delbert" > wrote in message
...
> I can remember when you could buy either a ford or GM for around 3500
bucks,
> both were good trucks, built well and for the right price...then all of a
> sudden the workers wanted more money, and the price of the trucks doubled
> and what suffered the product. Now your paying 16 to 25 grand for a
piece
> of junk that has been thrown together and probably won't last 100K miles.
>
> the only way either company can save their collective asses are by laying
> off as many UNION workers as they can, as fast as they can.
>
> just my 2 ¢
>
I remember those days, back in the late 60's. They squeaked and rattled ac
was a rarity, 6 banger three on the tree, vinyl seats, rubber mats, maybe an
am radio in the dash, but it was an option, no electric windows, no power
door locks, no fancy rims, no soft ride, painted bumpers painted grill, no
chrome. No clock on the dash, no tach, no gages, just idiot lights. No
head liner, no fancy upholstered inner door panels, painted metal, very
small arm rest. No tinted glass. tune up twice a year, if it got close to
60,000 miles on the odometer we were looking to ditch it because it was
getting close to needing a valve job, and maybe a re-ring.

Your another of those that think the other guy should make major wage
concessions, so go their wages, so go your wages. Unless the American
public(and that included Canada) starts getting their collective head out of
their ass, this country is going the same way England and France have gone,
zero zip manufacturing, and an average unemployment time of 2 years living
on the dole hoping for a job making fish and chips for the tourists.

Whitelightning

In article <4nIPg.4418$uj3.867@trnddc08>, Whitelightning wrote:

> I really do believe most people are quite naive about what we are up
> against. They can not fathom a person with an MBA from a major university
> being happy to work for $350 a month, live with his wife educated the same
> and making the same, two kids and usually at least one parent in a 560
> square foot apartment that only has running water for 2 hours in the morning
> and 2 hours in the evening. Read Thomas L Friedman's book "The World is
> Flat" its a real eye opener. It got my dad to cut up his Sams Club card
> Whets going to happen when China starts importing a car selling for under
> $5,000? Its going to be a piece of junk, and its going to sell like hot
> cakes.

The goal of those who control practically everyone in elected office is
to use china as the model for the world's government, corporate, and
military structure. In China there is no such thing as conflict of
interest. Military general, party offical, government office
holder, and corporate CEO can be the same person at the same time.

However, I don't think we are going to get to live as well as the
chinese, I think they'll have us living like peasants in Mexico. Of
course even people in china are being pushed in that direction as their
homes and land, often in the same family for hundreds of years
is taken by the government for corporate development.

Just look at what is going on as open borders are flooding the US labor
pool and the senate just trying to make it all legal rather than stop it.
(And nobody play any sort of race card, there are more mexicans in
the USA as it is than all the other immigrants of the 19th and 20th
centuries, it's about the numbers) The open trade policies designed to
encourage and then force the remaining manufacturing to leave the USA.

And then people will come back with, well it's just like it was with
japan... no, it's not. Japan industrialized with most of the west. They
fell behind from being bombed flat. They caught up. They have
environmental and labor protections. US corporations did not relocate
their manufacturing to Japan. Japanese companies compete more or less on
an even footing all things said and done. (the big three do get big
concessions from government too, just not from the UAW)

Unless we throw out the two party system on it's ass, we are going to be
in for a world of hurt. The republic (USA) is teetering at a tipping
point, we can pull back from the edge or fall over it.

Whitelightning wrote:

>The American public has been feed a steady line of how great the japs are,
>and how lousy the American iron is, and they have swallowed that line hook,
>sinker, bobber, line, rod, and reel right up to the caster's shoulder. What
>amazes me is how Ford can have a problem with engine fires and its on every
>news show and paper front page, but Toyota can have the same issue and its
>all very hush hush.

It's true that Japanese car quality is overrated, mostly because of
Toyota, Honda, and maybe Subaru, and Nissan's new models have been
horrible. But the Japanese can develop new designs more quickly and
produce them with far fewer production hours, and the percentage gap in
production hours is wider than it was 10-20 years ago. That, combined
with models customers don't like (Name a Ford, other than the F-150 or
Mustang. Name a GM vehicle) and flat sales, aren't good signs for the
future.

Guys, every empire in the history of the world has collapsed. Civilization
is the story of rise and fall. Seriously, why would the US be any
different? You can't stop it. Seems like the day is coming. The US will most
likely end up like Britain over the past 100 years: it used to run the
world. It WAS the world. Today, while it still has a massive military, it
also has high unemployment, foreign ownership of everything, depressed
wages, rising crime rates, and on and on it goes. The US is probably next in
line.

Brad



"Whitelightning" > wrote in message
news:vBIPg.4419$uj3.4141@trnddc08...
>
> "Delbert" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I can remember when you could buy either a ford or GM for around 3500
> bucks,
>> both were good trucks, built well and for the right price...then all of a
>> sudden the workers wanted more money, and the price of the trucks doubled
>> and what suffered the product. Now your paying 16 to 25 grand for a
> piece
>> of junk that has been thrown together and probably won't last 100K miles.
>>
>> the only way either company can save their collective asses are by
>> laying
>> off as many UNION workers as they can, as fast as they can.
>>
>> just my 2 ¢
>>
> I remember those days, back in the late 60's. They squeaked and rattled
> ac
> was a rarity, 6 banger three on the tree, vinyl seats, rubber mats, maybe
> an
> am radio in the dash, but it was an option, no electric windows, no power
> door locks, no fancy rims, no soft ride, painted bumpers painted grill, no
> chrome. No clock on the dash, no tach, no gages, just idiot lights. No
> head liner, no fancy upholstered inner door panels, painted metal, very
> small arm rest. No tinted glass. tune up twice a year, if it got close
> to
> 60,000 miles on the odometer we were looking to ditch it because it was
> getting close to needing a valve job, and maybe a re-ring.
>
> Your another of those that think the other guy should make major wage
> concessions, so go their wages, so go your wages. Unless the American
> public(and that included Canada) starts getting their collective head out
> of
> their ass, this country is going the same way England and France have
> gone,
> zero zip manufacturing, and an average unemployment time of 2 years living
> on the dole hoping for a job making fish and chips for the tourists.
>
> Whitelightning
>
>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 02:13:20 GMT, "Whitelightning"
> wrote:

>Tenured worker, that's a vested worker with 8-12 years on the job, working
>the 3-11 shift makes $50,000 a year. The 7-3 shift slightly less, the 11-7
>shift slightly more. Over-time can raise that amount significantly, but
>then over-time can raise anyone's wages significantly.


Throw in benifits too like lnsurance, retirement, days off, pension.
vehical purchase options to name a few that they do not pay for and
work rules to and the net cost is well over 70K a year. You want to
stimulate sales, slash wages 25% and you could slash car price 15% and
still make a profit. Year ago I knew a guy that worked at a morane
bearing plant. He told me up until mid 70's that when labor cost were
lower (though they made a good wage still) that the would reject
bearing that looked the slightest bit bad. Afer the agreesive wage a
benifit tactics that started in mid 70's in the following years, they
where told to pass bearing that were clearly bad to pay for wage
increases and it got worse every year. THis was just one area and
there were others. I has finailly reached critical mass and quaility
and sales have suffered and Toyota and others have stepped it paying a
more reasonable wage and being able to spend more time and money on
quaility. Unless the UAW realizes that they must change, they will be
out of a job one day. They will blame the imports but the blame is
with their greed in a market that will no longer support it.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:01:31 GMT, "BradandBrooks"
> wrote:

>Guys, every empire in the history of the world has collapsed. Civilization
>is the story of rise and fall. Seriously, why would the US be any
>different? You can't stop it. Seems like the day is coming. The US will most
>likely end up like Britain over the past 100 years: it used to run the
>world. It WAS the world. Today, while it still has a massive military, it
>also has high unemployment, foreign ownership of everything, depressed
>wages, rising crime rates, and on and on it goes. The US is probably next in
>line.


Interesting view and point. If the US falls it will because of the
people running it (like those now) that are only interested in short
term gain and not looking at the long term picture just like some
industries today. THe said part is that every consumer will pay for
this folly.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

whitelightning,

i like your stories - especially the one about hte pinto. sadly, a
high-milage reliable pinto was not the norm. conversely, most people
who had bought toyotas in the mid-80s liked them and kept them for long
stretches and loved their reliability, much as you did you pinto.

whatever detroit does, it will take them a generation to win back
consumers. to speed up this process, detroit will have to pray that
some of the popular japanese models (prius, echo, fit) become as poor
and unreliable as some legendary detroit lemons like Kcars, volares,
pintos, and citations. (please dont share a story in response about
some 1m mile citation that was 'bulletproof' - i just ate my egg
mcmuffin and i dont want to barf it up!)

another thing, it bothers me that good hard working americans are being
perceived as the cause of detroit's failures. these US conglomerates
should be able to pay a 50k wage and care of the health of their
people. they should be able to do it. it should not be a focus of blame
of a 15% factor in the sticker price of their cars. maybe the US
government should be picking up the healthcare costs of these retirees
(and all other hard -working americans). i am sure intheir hayday GM
paid unimaginable taxes. the cause of their failure is poor product
design, and a weak corporate culture.

harry in montreal.

In article .com>, Harry in Montreal wrote:

> i like your stories - especially the one about hte pinto. sadly, a
> high-milage reliable pinto was not the norm. conversely, most people
> who had bought toyotas in the mid-80s liked them and kept them for long
> stretches and loved their reliability, much as you did you pinto.

Comparing a pinto to mid 80s japanese car is pretty unfair, since the
pinto entered the marketplace in 1971 and left practically unchanged in
1980. Spoting the japanese automakers ~15 years of advancement is unfair.

> another thing, it bothers me that good hard working americans are being
> perceived as the cause of detroit's failures. these US conglomerates
> should be able to pay a 50k wage and care of the health of their
> people.

It's assembly line work... I'm sorry, but it's not the sort of job that
generally needs to be highly paid nor has a bottom line relationship
where it pays for its self.

> (and all other hard -working americans). i am sure intheir hayday GM
> paid unimaginable taxes. the cause of their failure is poor product
> design, and a weak corporate culture.

Corporate culture drives the rest, part of corporate culture is the union
culture.

On 19 Sep 2006 07:16:57 -0700, "Harry in Montreal"
> wrote:

>another thing, it bothers me that good hard working americans are being
>perceived as the cause of detroit's failures. these US conglomerates
>should be able to pay a 50k wage and care of the health of their
>people. they should be able to do it. it should not be a focus of blame
>of a 15% factor in the sticker price of their cars. maybe the US
>government should be picking up the healthcare costs of these retirees
>(and all other hard -working americans). i am sure intheir hayday GM
>paid unimaginable taxes. the cause of their failure is poor product
>design, and a weak corporate culture.

Please... Free health care for auto workers is not possible today and
be profitable too. They need to choose between a high wage and they
pay for insurance and a lower wage with free insurance. I have likely
bought my last Detriot vehicle because I will not pay top dollar for
lower quality to pay their generous benifits and it is not about being
patriotic either and buying them no matter what because that does not
wash anymore. We shell out over 300/month for our contribution to good
health care coverage and it goes up every year too so I am very aware
of health costs and the "raise" detriot workers get every year with
free coverage and a COLA. If their coverage was not free they would
not run up medical bill as quickly and help keep costs down and I
would love to have free perscriptions too like they do which encourges
them to do it often even when not really needed. Maybe I cannot stop
it but I will not support it and I am not alone because detriot
continues to loose market share and will do so until it and its works
wakeup and realize that they have two choices, stay the course and go
under one day or radically change and adapt with products, wages,
quality because they need to get prices down and quality up and it is
impossible unless the wage issue is addressed. The economy will not
longer support this.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com