How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 00:10:50 -0400, > wrote:

> I once changed a cast iron Powerglide working on my back under the
> car. Darn near killed me.

I do all my maintenance such that my 15-year old cars have never been to a
mechanic, almost.

But I've never messed with is a manual transmission.

I have four jack stands of 6-ton size (which is something like 16 inches).
I also have two ramps, but I almost never use them because the floor jack
is pretty beefy. It goes about 15 inches. It's the costco steel big one,
which I bought about ten years ago (now Costco has aluminum ones that I
salivate over but I don't need a third floor jack).

> If you don't have a hoist, at least put the truck up on ramps - I'd
> put it up on both ends - front on ramps and rear on stands. Get a
> transmission saddle for the floor jack and chain the trans on firmly.

THIS IS GREAT NEW INFORMATION!

I never heard of a "transmission saddle" for a floor jack until this moment!

I never mind buying a tool that I *need* (because it's still cheaper than
paying someone $630+tax to do the clutch); but I don't want to buy a $100
transmission stand if I don't really need it (where I don't need the ten
feet of lift but I do need the ability to hold the transmission down!

If this "transmission saddle" can be bought locally, I'll get it!

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 22:04:05 +1000, Xeno > wrote:

> I'm thinking if he doesn't know *anything* about the job, including what
> he needs in the way of equipment, it will be *cheaper* for him to pay
> someone who does have a clue and, of course, all the requisite equipment.

I just called a random shop who charges $630 for the job, so my thoughts
are that the first $630 are free by way of tools.

Of course, that includes parts, so, let's halve that which means that the
first $300 are for the tools.

At that price, I can afford a specifically designed transmission jack - but
it's still a tool that I won't ever need again (although I know, as you
know, that these things have ways of finding themselves useful in the
future).

My garage is filled to the brim with tools, some of which I bought for
specific jobs which are small, like pickle forks or spring compressors or
special wrenches (I still have curved distributor wrenches from the 70s and
a dwell meter by way of examples of tools just sitting there doing
nothing).

I don't mind buying a tool if it saves me money on the job, but I would
rather not buy a transmission jack that is only going to be used once. For
example, I have a HF motorcyle lift that I only used once. It worked for
that bike but it's long gone so now it just takes up room in my garage.

I do like the idea of the floor jack "transmission saddle" though, as it
will store easily and it goes onto my existing floor jack. I just need to
find one...

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:35:32 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> My '91 Regal was a PITA to change oil. Did it twice. For the few bucks
> saved, that was the last time I crawled under a car.

I have cars that are 15 to 20 years old and I do all my work.
The only job I've not done is a clutch.
In a way, it's the one job I wish I could do.
Well, I wish I could do an engine replacement too - but I'll never do that.

But a clutch?
I wish I could do it.

I just need to do my homework first.
Which is what I'm doing here by asking what it entails.

It seems that, so far, the idea of the transmission saddle was the BEST
ANSSWER because I don't have to buy a one-time-use transmission jack.

I just called a shop and got a quote of $630 assuming nothing else was
needed (e.g., overheated flywheel needing replacement), so, that's about
two hundred more than I thought the quote would come out at.

At that price, the transmission jack is nothing. Sure it will take up even
more space in may already crowded garage. But it will save more money than
it costs. Still - the saddle seems to be the way to go since it won't cost
as much, won't take up as much space, and will work as well (we presume).

Once I have that, the rest seems to be just bolts.
(Famous last words.)

Here is a picture of the transmission when I replaced the fluid two days
ago. It seems to be some kind of "alloy" which means it might not be heavy.
https://s26.postimg.org/c820lcoc9/01...uid_Change.jpg

On 09/20/2017 02:03 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
> Assume the whole pedal travel is, oh I don't know, let's say 12 inches.
> The engagement travel is something like an inch it seems.
> The rest of the 11 inches aren't doing anything.

Is the clutch linkage mechanical or hydraulic? Get under it and you'll
see some sort of lever sticking out the side of the bellhousing. Have
your wife operate the clutch and see if you are getting a full stroke
and smooth travel.

It really sounds like the clutch isn't disengaging cleanly. It doesn't
take too much drag to make shifting difficult. With the F150 the
throwout bearing was the culprit. It would start to hang up on the nose
of the transmission. At first I thought it was the slave cylinder of the
hydraulic so I replaced it. (And anyway that was a lot easier).

The symptoms were very erratic so sometimes it would work, sometimes
not. I also thought it might be the pivot ball for the lever arm. A
spray of lube and it would work for a while but I think that was just
coincidental. That could be why your miracle oil worked.

On 09/20/2017 01:51 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
> Anyway, the "general" procedure seems to be this:
> . While it's on the ground, remove the cabin gear shift mechanism
> . If possible, unbolt the "conning tower" for the shift mechanism
> . Then jackstand the car as high as you can get it (I have 6 ton stands).
> . Remove the drive shaft
> . Remove the slave cylinder
> . Remove the speedometer cable
> . Remove any speed sensors
> . Remove anything else in the way
> . Then support the transmission with a transmission jack
> . Then unbolt the front bell housing
>
> I think that's it.
> Did I miss a major step?

I'd have to see a 4Runner to be sure, but usually the transmission bolts
to the bellhousing with 4 or so bolts. The transmission has a round
boss, say 1/4" deep that is a snug fit into the bellhousing to keep
everything centered. Just removing those might do the trick. Typically
the bellhousing itself will have a bunch of smaller cap screws around
the perimeter that can be a pain in the butt. The housing might have a
bushing for the nose of the starter motor that's something else to line up.

> The second question is whether a transmission lift is really needed when
> you're in a jackstand situation (so you don't need ten feet of lift).
>
> Can't a floor jack hold the transmission?
> I watched one video where a guy wrestled the transmission out by hand.

I've done it without a jack more than with one. Newer transmissions are
relatively light, but then I can't bench press what I could 40 years ago
either. the real problem with doing that is the input shaft of the
transmission needs to be level and square to pick up the clutch splines
and get the end of the shaft into the pilot bearing in the end of the
crankshaft. (again, generic, a 4Runner might be a little different)
Horsing around a 60 or 70 pound awkward hunk can be tricky.

You can use a floor jack. The problem is most floor jacks only have a
small cup. You need to figure out someway to balance the transmission
and secure it. Then the shaft might not be at quite the right angle so
you need to wedge it. A transmission jack with have a larger surface to
hold the transmission, generally some brackets to secure it in the right
position, straps to tie it down, and maybe a way to tilt the whole deal.
Most tool rental places have them and unless you're on a really tight
budget it is one hell of a lot easier. When I was a kid I didn't have
much cash in hand and did most things the hard way. it can be done but
it's not much fun.



> Must I have a transmission jack?
> If I need it I'll get it - but it will only be used once so I'd rather not.

Rent it. The local Time Rental is showing $34.50 a day. If you don't
have a torque wrench you can generally rent those too. Another thing
about keeping the tranny nice and level and upright is you don't
suddenly find out that there really isn't a shaft seal on the input or
output shaft and fill your armpit with fluid.

If you figure it will take more than a couple of days you might find
something like this locally:

https://www.amazon.com/Gotobuy-Trans.../dp/B01MTXZE6J

Even if it's a couple of bucks more locally you can measure up your
floor jack and make sure it's something that's going to fit without
going off onto another project to make it work.

On 09/20/2017 08:19 AM, wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 22:04:05 +1000, Xeno >
> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>> I'm thinking if he doesn't know *anything* about the job, including what
>> he needs in the way of equipment, it will be *cheaper* for him to pay
>> someone who does have a clue and, of course, all the requisite equipment.
> I would agree 100%. But some people NEED to do it themselves. More
> time than money, or just plain more "stubborn-ness"
>
> When the clutch on my Ranger needed replacement I paid my brother's
> shop to do the job even though I'd done hundreds of clutch
> replacements in my younger years. At 60 I wasn't going to roll around
> under the truck on a creaper to replace it.
>

Going on 70 that's what I really like about bikes -- you don't have to
get under the damn things. Worse comes to worse you can just lay down
next to it.

On 09/20/2017 08:35 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/20/2017 10:19 AM, wrote:
>
>>
>> When the clutch on my Ranger needed replacement I paid my brother's
>> shop to do the job even though I'd done hundreds of clutch
>> replacements in my younger years. At 60 I wasn't going to roll around
>> under the truck on a creaper to replace it.
>>
>
> My '91 Regal was a PITA to change oil. Did it twice. For the few bucks
> saved, that was the last time I crawled under a car.

I'm one of those weird people that looks under the hood when buying
cars. Drain plug? Check. Oil filter? Check. Ignition wiring? Check. Of
course the Toyota doesn't have a distributor of plug wires so that was a
real easy one. I can reach in with a 10mm socket to pull the drain plug
and unscrew the filter from the top.

On 09/20/2017 02:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
> If this "transmission saddle" can be bought locally, I'll get it!

Walmart shows them but I imagine it would be something they would have
to order before you find out how well it works with your floor jack.

On 21/09/2017 12:47 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 09/20/2017 08:19 AM, wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 22:04:05 +1000, Xeno >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>> I'm thinking if he doesn't know *anything* about the job, including what
>>> he needs in the way of equipment, it will be *cheaper* for him to pay
>>> someone who does have a clue and, of course, all the requisite
>>> equipment.
>> * I would agree 100%. But some people NEED to do it themselves. More
>> time than money, or just plain more "stubborn-ness"
>>
>> When the clutch on my Ranger needed replacement I paid my brother's
>> shop to do the job even though I'd done hundreds of clutch
>> replacements in my younger years. At 60 I wasn't going to roll around
>> under the truck on a creaper to replace it.
>>
>
> Going on 70 that's what I really like about bikes -- you don't have to
> get under the damn things. Worse comes to worse you can just lay down
> next to it.
>
A lot of the bike riders do just that, though not necessarily
intentionally, at high speed out on the highway.

--

Xeno

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:03:48 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:03:20 -0600, rbowman > wrote:
>
>> Not particularly. Sometimes there is a shield on the bottom of the
>> bellhousing that you can remove. You can't really see much but if a lot
>> of dust and pieces of lining are present it isn't good news.
>
>There *is* a semicircular shield plate on the bell housing.
>I don't know what is behind it though.
>
>> What are the symptoms?
>Two different things, one of which was fixed yesterday:
>1. The clutch pedal feels like crap (more about that below)
>2. It wouldn't shift into gear when cold.
>
>The cold-shift issue somehow, magically, went away when I replaced the
>original fluid yesterday with Red Line MT-90 "miracle fluid". I didn't
>believe in the miracle fluid, but the driver (who isn't me) reported that
>it works just fine now for shifting into gear when cold. Huh? How can that
>be? What on earth is so magical about that fluid that it makes shifting
>into gear when cold possible when the only thing that changed was the
>fluid?
>
>I don't understand it but I'm not complaining.

Likely some idiot put the wrong fluid in lastr time it was changed.
There IS a difference between GL4, GL5, ATF, and engine oil. Differnt
transmissions are built to use different fluids.
>
>> Is it slipping when you floor the engine at 50 mph or so?
>
>There is no indication of slipping of the clutch.
>I can stall the engine easily when I put it in the wrong gear.
>I can slip the clutch to get it to go in the wrong gear.
>I can start on a hill in the right gear.
>
>So there is no indication that the clutch itself is slipping.
>But ...
>
>The pedal feels like crap.
>
>> Or just hard to engage and shift.
>
>It was impossible to engage just two days ago. For months, the wife has
>been complaining (it's actually her car) that it wouldn't go into gear. So
>she shifted into reverse to get out of the garage. Then she turned the
>engine off and back on. Then she shifted into first to make her K turn.
>Then she turned the engine off and back on. Then she repeated this for as
>long as it took her (something like five more steps than it takes me) to
>complete her K turn and be on her way.
>
>Yesterday and today, she was able to shift into the first and reverse gears
>without turning off the engine! Can a simple oil change do that?
>
>I don't understand it. I really don't.
>
>BTW, I don't know if turning the engine off was necessary. I suspect not. I
>suspect she could have gotten it into neutral and just activated the clutch
>pedal a few times. The problem was it wouldn't get OUT of gear to go into
>neutral. So she shut the engine down. When I tried it, I just held the
>brake and pressed the clutch pedal a few times so I think the engine didn't
>need to be turned off as I see nothing that turning off the engine should
>do to the transmission. Do you?
>

I'd be checking the release cyl
>
>> My F150 had a appetite for
>> throwout bearings that gave the latter symptoms. They were good for
>> about 75k miles. By the time you're to the throwout you're almost to the
>> clutch do the last time around I replaced it and the pressure plate. I
>> think it was about $50 for both. Neither were in bad shape but while
>> you're there it's not much more work.
>
>This is my problem.
>I know *nothing* about "forks" and "throwout bearings" and "pilot bearings"
>etc.

Again, another reason paying someone who knows MIGHT be a good
investment.
>
>Sure I watched that great video on how transmissions work but that doesn't
>give me any *practical* knowledge about how to diagnose why the clutch
>pedal feels like crap.
>
>It's so hard to explain that even when I try, it's not the same as feeling
>it.
>
>When I step on the pedal, and then release it while in gear, it just
>doesn't feel right.

The clutch master might be bad too.
>
>The pedal goes down ok, but then when I lift it up, the first couple of
>inches are like floating in air, while the next inch it seems to fully
>engage, where the next four or five inches of release travel is wasted as
>the clutch is already engaged.

I'd be checking the hydraulics and the linkage before tearing the
transmission out.
>
>Assume the whole pedal travel is, oh I don't know, let's say 12 inches.
>The engagement travel is something like an inch it seems.
>The rest of the 11 inches aren't doing anything.
>
>Does that make any sense?