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Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- The Story....



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 12th 08, 06:55 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
hobbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- The Story....

Keywords: Honda Civic LX 1999 D16Y7 Oxygen Sensor P0135 ODBII

Holly smokes! Panic! The Check Engine light is on. First time that
happened, pulled into a petrol station and put in more oil. That did
not solve the problem and made no difference. That was about a year
ago. Since then I have learned to control my panic and be more cool ...
"the name's Bond, James Bond."

First time round, took the car to Honda. After $US 105 light was out
no clue what was wrong. One month later, light on again. Bought an
Actron CP9175 analyzer and have never looked back. The fault turned
out to be a wiring rubbing against a belt. Re-clipped the wire and the
light went out. Two years later when that Check Engine Light came on,
I was neither shaken nor stirred.

Driving home from work and that dam idiot light come .... Arrgghhh Check
Engine Light. Ok. Cool. Think James Bond. Get home and connect up the
analyzer. The scan tool diagnostic connector is just above your left
leg shin when you are sitting in the driver's seat, it is on the wall
up against the steering wheel overhang. The code that comes up is
P0135 (with a zero not a "O"). This means "Primary heated Oxygen
Sensor heater circuit fault". In the car this is the Oxygen Sensor
uppermost before the catalytic converter. When you open the bonnet (or
hood), it is the sensor uppermost before the catalytic converter.

The Oxygen Sensor is connected to the ECM / PCM with a connector that
sits on top of the engine. To disconnect this connector you need to
pop the plastic clip on top. Then ease out gently the ECM / PCM
connector side out. I found using a screw driver helped to ease it
off. The other side of the connector is connected to the oxygen sensor
and is attached to the engine block via a clip underneath. To detach
this you need to reach under the clip near the front and lift up the
release catch. Then ease this off.

Looking at the connector to the oxygen sensor, with the Attach to
Engine clip on the bottom, check the resistance between the bottom two
pins with an electrical multimeter. It should be between 10 to 40
ohms. In my case I had an open circuit. You also need to check for a
short between either of these pins and the body of the oxygen sensor
i.e. ground / battery negative terminal. If you have a short, then you
need a new oxygen sensor.

OK so it looks like I need a new oxygen sensor. Recliped the connector
and set things back. Note you can drive the car even with the Primary
oxygen sensor disconnected. In this case the PGM / ECM computer will
use a default internal value. Your fuel consumption will be slightly
worse. In my case I actually could not tell the difference.

The oxygen sensor I got hold of was a Bosch BS13007 which I bought
from AutoZone for $US 90. You can get these cheaper on the net at
about $US 75 but I wanted the assurance that if it was not the right
one, I could return it without too much hassle. The OEM one in the
Honda is in fact a Denso Oxygen sensor. I went with Bosch mainly
because it was the one in stock at the AutoZone shop. It comes with a
1-year guarantee. The guy at AutoZone was actually pretty good. Check
to make sure I had the right oxygen sensor and also recommended the
right Oxygen Sensor ratchet tool.

Tools you need are an Oxygen Sensor socket; this is a socket with a
slit in it for the Oxygen Sensor wire. The one you need is the one
with the 1/2 inch drive ratchet hole offset on the side. The ones with
the 1/2 drive ratchet whole on top were too long to maneuver onto the
Oxygen sensor due to the proximity of the radiator hoses. The other
thing I bought was some PB Blaster oil penetrate to help loosen up
bolts and a tube of high-temperature anti seize compound

Back at home time to change the oxygen sensor while the engine was
still warm-ish. There are lots of theories as to if a hot, warm or
cold engine makes this easier. My take on it is you want the engine
warmish, to hot and you fry yourself. And cold makes getting the
sensor out of the exhaust manifold a bitch.

I first disconnected the battery to make sure I did not short out any
electronics and to make sure the car would not start on me. I then I
disconnected the Oxygen sensor wire socked. Now take off the two bolts
on the exhaust heat shield and remove that. You may need gloves to do
this because it is sort of hot. Leather garden gloves work well. My
bolts were sort of rusty. And the 12mm wrench socket stuck to the
bolts a bit. A small drop of WD-40 or PB Blaster made this problem go
away. Take off the heat shield and carefully maneuver it past the
Oxygen sensor and the radiator hoses. It is tight but it will come
out. Thread the Oxygen sensor wire past through the heat shield and
place the heat shield to one side. You can now see the Oxygen Sensor.

Spray some PB Blaster onto the sensor and exhaust manifold join. I
think the PB helps loosen things up a bit, BUT also if you spray
slighty more on the sensor, it cools the sensor more than the
surrounding exhaust manifold and makes it contract faster and hence
easier to get out. Place the socket wrench on the Oxygen sensor first.
Then connect up the ratchet. The socket does not stick to the ratchet
as with other sockets, and you will lose the socket in the depths of
the engine .... like me the first time around if you try and balance it
on the socket wrench. Then tug and try and loosen the sensor. Mine
luckly came out easily. Other people I have read needed breaker bars
and a lot more force.

I then put extra anti seize onto the new sensor, taking care to keep
it on the threads only and away from the business end of the sensor.
The sensor did come with some anti-seize, but I added more and
smoothed it over to ensure a nice even coating. Put the sensor in,
making sure the tip does not touch anything oily. Re-assembly is the
reverse of everything up to now.

The bosch sensor wire did not come with the rubber grommet that helps
secure the wire to engine clip and is longer in length. I clipped back
the wire connector clip, and used a few cable ties to secure the wire
away from the exhaust heat shield and radiator fan.

Hooked up the battery ..... Hmmm moment of truth ..... Ignition stage II.
Clear the codes with the Actron. Then hit the starter. Engine fires
and the Check Engine Light remains off. Mission accomplished James.

Hope this is helpful to some one ....

Good luck. Best, Mike.




Ads
  #2  
Old January 12th 08, 07:17 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
Elle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 401
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- The Story ....

Bosch O2 sensors are bad Jujubes, grasshopper.

OEM Denso is available for around $70 total for your Civic
at https://www.automedicsupply.com


"hobbes" > wrote
> The oxygen sensor I got hold of was a Bosch



  #3  
Old January 14th 08, 05:51 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
Elle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 401
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- The Story ....

"courseincivics" <[email protected]> wrote
> "Elle" > wrote
>> OEM Denso is available for around $70 total for your
>> Civic
>> at https://www.automedicsupply.com

>
> Do they only sell 02 sensors? Whenever I go to the site,
> I get redirected
> to a page that says oxygensensors.com, although it appears
> to be owned by
> automedicsupply.com.


The automedicsupply.com site has been this way ever since I
started using it a few years ago. I have always only been
able to locate oxygen sensors at this site. Googling shows
there's some evidence that, at least in the late 1990s, Auto
Medic Supply sold other things. There is a contact phone
number and email addy at the site, if you're looking for
other things. OTOH many other online sites sell OEM Honda
parts. See suggestions at
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id9.html . In
addition, online sales by local dealers has really picked up
(with great prices for parts, for a change, by dealers). One
can often find one's local dealer has an online site, call
the parts department, and ask for the internet price.


  #4  
Old January 15th 08, 04:54 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
hobbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- TheStory ....

On Jan 12, 1:17*pm, "Elle" > wrote:
> Bosch *O2 sensors are bad Jujubes, grasshopper.
>
> OEM Denso is available for around $70 total for your Civic
> athttps://www.automedicsupply.com
>
> "hobbes" > wrote
>
>
>
> > The oxygen sensor I got hold of was a Bosch- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


Hi Elle,

Thanks for the tip. I have been driving around for a while now with
the Bosch one. It seems O.K. ... then again I am not that much of a
car expert. I think my one is the Planar Oxygen sensor type.

Just as a matter of interest, what are the main advantages of the
Denso o2 sensors when compared with Bosch? Are there big differences.
Maybe when the Bosch breaks I will get a Denso next time around. Is
the Denso also a Planar type?

Best, Mike.
  #5  
Old January 15th 08, 05:43 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
Elle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 401
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- The Story ....

Hi Mike, what I recall from posts here is that (1) the Bosch
O2 sensors seem not to send a very good signal to the ECU,
ultimately seeming to throw off fuel efficiency; and (2) the
Bosch's fail sooner. Re "planar O2 sensors," you know as
much or more than I on them, and I would be googling.

From reading here and my general reflections, I think it's
okay to just wait until the Bosch dies, assuming the car
seems to run fine, which you say yours does. Worrying about
say, the effects on the Cat Converter seems overboard. But
I'd go OEM next time for sure, especially since you can get
one pretty cheap from the Auto Medic source.

Bear in mind I am a cheapskate. In my adult life I have
typically started by buying the cheap stuff. Some works
fine. Others support the adage, "You get what you pay for."

So where I now go OEM for my 91 Civic:
--All electrical ignition parts (plugs, wires, dizzy cap and
rotor, igniter, coil). Believe me, I have used non-OEM with
all these except maybe the plugs, and the lifetimes and
performance were worse.
--Timing belt replacement parts (belt, water pump,
tensioner, crank and cam shaft seals)
--Alternators (but would go with rebuilt OEM ones, assuming
a brush replacement did not work)
--Most anything electrical, especially the O2 sensor

Non-OEM:
--Air filter
--Fuel filter
--Anti-freeeze (will only use orange Havoline though)
--Radiator, from reading here, aftermarket appears to be
fine
--Alternator and power steering belts (dunno if non-OEM is
wise, but so far, so good)

"hobbes" > wrote
On Jan 12, 1:17 pm, "Elle"
> wrote:
> Bosch O2 sensors are bad Jujubes, grasshopper.
>
> OEM Denso is available for around $70 total for your Civic
> athttps://www.automedicsupply.com
>
> "hobbes" > wrote
>
>
>
> > The oxygen sensor I got hold of was a Bosch- Hide quoted
> > text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


Hi Elle,

Thanks for the tip. I have been driving around for a while
now with
the Bosch one. It seems O.K. ... then again I am not that
much of a
car expert. I think my one is the Planar Oxygen sensor type.

Just as a matter of interest, what are the main advantages
of the
Denso o2 sensors when compared with Bosch? Are there big
differences.
Maybe when the Bosch breaks I will get a Denso next time
around. Is
the Denso also a Planar type?

Best, Mike.


  #6  
Old January 15th 08, 10:31 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
hobbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- TheStory ....

On Jan 15, 11:43*am, "Elle" >
wrote:
> Hi Mike, what I recall from posts here is that (1) the Bosch
> O2 sensors seem not to send a very good signal to the ECU,
> ultimately seeming to throw off fuel efficiency; and (2) the
> Bosch's fail sooner. Re "planar O2 sensors," you know as
> much or more than I on them, and I would be googling.
>
> From reading here and my general reflections, I think it's
> okay to just wait until the Bosch dies, assuming the car
> seems to run fine, which you say yours does. Worrying about
> say, the effects on the Cat Converter seems overboard. But
> I'd go OEM next time for sure, especially since you can get
> one pretty cheap from the Auto Medic source.
>
> Bear in mind I am a cheapskate. In my adult life I have
> typically started by buying the cheap stuff. Some works
> fine. Others support the adage, "You get what you pay for."
>
> So where I now go OEM for my 91 Civic:
> --All electrical ignition parts (plugs, wires, dizzy cap and
> rotor, igniter, coil). Believe me, I have used non-OEM with
> all these except maybe the plugs, and the lifetimes and
> performance were worse.
> --Timing belt replacement parts (belt, water pump,
> tensioner, crank and cam shaft seals)
> --Alternators (but would go with rebuilt OEM ones, assuming
> a brush replacement did not work)
> --Most anything electrical, especially the O2 sensor
>
> Non-OEM:
> --Air filter
> --Fuel filter
> --Anti-freeeze (will only use orange Havoline though)
> --Radiator, from reading here, aftermarket appears to be
> fine
> --Alternator and power steering belts (dunno if non-OEM is
> wise, but so far, so good)
>
> "hobbes" > wrote
> On Jan 12, 1:17 pm, "Elle"
>
> > wrote:
> > Bosch O2 sensors are bad Jujubes, grasshopper.

>
> > OEM Denso is available for around $70 total for your Civic
> > athttps://www.automedicsupply.com

>
> > "hobbes" > wrote

>
> > > The oxygen sensor I got hold of was a Bosch- Hide quoted
> > > text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Hi Elle,
>
> Thanks for the tip. I have been driving around for a while
> now with
> the Bosch one. It seems O.K. ... then again I am not that
> much of a
> car expert. I think my one is the Planar Oxygen sensor type.
>
> Just as a matter of interest, what are the main advantages
> of the
> Denso o2 sensors when compared with Bosch? Are there big
> differences.
> Maybe when the Bosch breaks I will get a Denso next time
> around. Is
> the Denso also a Planar type?
>
> Best, Mike.


Hi Elle,

Thanks for the information. Will see how far I get. I also found out
some interesting stuff about Oxygen Sensors. And I think I know why
people buying non OEM ones are having issues.

In a nutshell an Oxygen Sensor has a certain sensitivity which is
related to:

1) The Spinell layer microporosity. Ths Spninell layer is a protection
layer sprayed onto the Zicronia to protect it. The ticker the layer
the more protection, the lower the sensitivity
2) The number of slits on the outer casing. More holes and slits, the
more exposed the sensor is, and hence you get more response voltage.
But it degrades faster.

Then the sensitivity needed is related to the distance of the sensor
to the cyliners. So one that is position futher away needs to be more
sensitive. And that distance is related to the velocity and
temperature of the exhaust. If you have a turbo, high heat and fast
exhaust, that sensor needs to be more protected and further away from
the cylinders.

So in a nutshell it is important to get the right Sensor for your car.
I think it is better to stay away from "Universal" sensors, and get
one which is within the OEM specs, be it a Bosch, Denso etc. That will
have the right number of holes / slits and Spinell layer coating for
(a) big enough voltage output to the ECM and (b) effective use
longevity. I.E. You need to look very carefully at all the Oxygen
Sensors and pick one which is OEM replacement type for your car.

Here is a link I found which I think is rather good on this topic.

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may98/techtips.htm

It also mentions that the ECM compensates for the Spinell layer
degredation as time goes by. So it sort of expects the Oxygen Snesor
to degrade, and voltage output to fall. It compensates for this by
changing the monitoring pulse with frequency. So I guess it is
important to get an O2 Sensor with the same degradation profile as the
ECM is expecting.

O2 Sensors also come in various types. The first ones where (a)
unheated thimble types. Then came (b) heated thimble types and now (c)
heated planar types. 50% of all cars have now the Planar type. Heating
the O2 sensor means it gets to operating temperature faster, and stays
at that temperature even if your engine is idling. The Planar ones get
to that temp in about 12 seconds. Thimbles ones in about 40 seconds.

The latest (s) Wide-Band Planar Oxygen sensors have a small gas pump.
This allows them to send a "This much petrol" signal rather than a two
level only LEAN or RICH signal.

Warmest regards, Mike.

  #7  
Old January 16th 08, 12:45 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
Jeffrey D.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- TheStory ....

hobbes, just a clarification.

When the check engine light turned on or flashed on, did you have
trouble working on the brakes? I mean were the breaks and accelerator
was really hard to push making you to stop???

I had the same problem - the oil pressure and battery lights flashed
on while i was driving and it was too difficult to push for the brakes
to the floor and I used the handbreak instead to stop the
car...somebody told me it was due to overheating that's why the lights
flashed. But i did not see the temp gauge moving up to the maximum...

So this is also an O2 sensor failure???

thanks!!!

JD



  #8  
Old January 16th 08, 02:46 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
hobbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- TheStory ....

Hi Jeffery,

I was reading some of your posts about your overheating engine, sorry
to learn you are having some much trouble. I am afraid I am not an
expert in cars and am sort of learning as I go along .....

Oxygen Sensors are more to do with emissions than overheating engines.
If a sensor fails it usually fails safe. Say you cut all the wires to
the sensor, the engine will still run because the ECM car computer
uses a default value and keeps your car running. Your catalytic
converter may suffer a bit as will your miles per gallon petrol usage,
but it is usually O.K. to drive around for a few days until you can
bring the car to a repair place.

The fact that your battery light came on and the oil presure light I
think means your engine stopped running. This means the servo
assistance on the brakes also is not there. Your foot brakes will
work, but they are much harder to push because there is no engine to
help apply preasure. Likewise you may have found the steering also
harder to turn the wheel. Again the power assistance to the steering
may also have been lost.

I think your temperature gauge is not lying and there is also a high
temp warning light and I did not see you mentioning that coming on. So
I think your engine did not overheat in this instance.

Hope you can get your puppy fixed up OK.

Warmest regards, Mike.








On Jan 15, 6:45*pm, "Jeffrey D." > wrote:
> hobbes, just a clarification.
>
> When the check engine light turned on or flashed on, did you have
> trouble working on the brakes? I mean were the breaks and accelerator
> was really hard to push making you to stop???
>
> I had the same problem - the oil pressure and battery lights flashed
> on while i was driving and it was too difficult to push for the brakes
> to the floor and I used the handbreak instead to stop the
> car...somebody told me it was due to overheating that's why the lights
> flashed. But i did not see the temp gauge moving up to the maximum...
>
> So this is also an O2 sensor failure???
>



> thanks!!!
>
> JD


  #9  
Old January 16th 08, 08:43 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
hobbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- TheStory ....

On Jan 15, 8:46*pm, hobbes > wrote:
> Hi Jeffery,
>
> I was reading some of your posts about your overheating engine, sorry
> to learn you are having some much trouble. I am afraid I am not an
> expert in cars and am sort of learning as I go along .....
>
> Oxygen Sensors are more to do with emissions than overheating engines.
> If a sensor fails it usually fails safe. Say you cut all the wires to
> the sensor, the engine will still run because the ECM car computer
> uses a default value and keeps your car running. Your catalytic
> converter may suffer a bit as will your miles per gallon petrol usage,
> but it is usually O.K. to drive around for a few days until you can
> bring the car to a repair place.
>
> The fact that your battery light came on and the oil presure light I
> think means your engine stopped running. This means the servo
> assistance on the brakes also is not there. Your foot brakes will
> work, but they are much harder to push because there is no engine to
> help apply preasure. Likewise you may have found the steering also
> harder to turn the wheel. Again the power assistance to the steering
> may also have been lost.
>
> I think your temperature gauge is not lying and there is also a high
> temp warning light and I did not see you mentioning that coming on. So
> I think your engine did not overheat in this instance.
>
> Hope you can get your puppy fixed up OK.
>
> Warmest regards, Mike.
>
> On Jan 15, 6:45*pm, "Jeffrey D." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > hobbes, just a clarification.

>
> > When the check engine light turned on or flashed on, did you have
> > trouble working on the brakes? I mean were the breaks and accelerator
> > was really hard to push making you to stop???

>
> > I had the same problem - the oil pressure and battery lights flashed
> > on while i was driving and it was too difficult to push for the brakes
> > to the floor and I used the handbreak instead to stop the
> > car...somebody told me it was due to overheating that's why the lights
> > flashed. But i did not see the temp gauge moving up to the maximum...

>
> > So this is also an O2 sensor failure???

>
> > thanks!!!

>
> > JD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


Hi,

I just filled up with Petrol and over 197.3 miles I used 6.135 Gallons
of petrol. So I have about 32 MPG. This I think is what I was getting
before on my average weekly usage. I had two days worth running with
the Check Engine Light on, and about five days with the new Oxygen
Sensor installed. I suspect that the old O2 sensor was still working,
just that the heater bit was broken. Hence I was only getting bad fuel
consumption when the car is cold which is not for very long.

So far the car runs like it was before. I cannot tell the difference.
So I gues so far the Oxygen Sensor is working O.K.

Finger crossed ..... Mike.
  #10  
Old February 25th 08, 02:08 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
hobbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Honda Civic 1999, P0135, Oxygen Sensor Change, D16Y7 --- TheStory ....

On Jan 16, 2:43*pm, hobbes > wrote:
> On Jan 15, 8:46*pm, hobbes > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Jeffery,

>
> > I was reading some of your posts about your overheating engine, sorry
> > to learn you are having some much trouble. I am afraid I am not an
> > expert in cars and am sort of learning as I go along .....

>
> > Oxygen Sensors are more to do with emissions than overheating engines.
> > If a sensor fails it usually fails safe. Say you cut all the wires to
> > the sensor, the engine will still run because the ECM car computer
> > uses a default value and keeps your car running. Your catalytic
> > converter may suffer a bit as will your miles per gallon petrol usage,
> > but it is usually O.K. to drive around for a few days until you can
> > bring the car to a repair place.

>
> > The fact that your battery light came on and the oil presure light I
> > think means your engine stopped running. This means the servo
> > assistance on the brakes also is not there. Your foot brakes will
> > work, but they are much harder to push because there is no engine to
> > help apply preasure. Likewise you may have found the steering also
> > harder to turn the wheel. Again the power assistance to the steering
> > may also have been lost.

>
> > I think your temperature gauge is not lying and there is also a high
> > temp warning light and I did not see you mentioning that coming on. So
> > I think your engine did not overheat in this instance.

>
> > Hope you can get your puppy fixed up OK.

>
> > Warmest regards, Mike.

>
> > On Jan 15, 6:45*pm, "Jeffrey D." > wrote:

>
> > > hobbes, just a clarification.

>
> > > When the check engine light turned on or flashed on, did you have
> > > trouble working on the brakes? I mean were the breaks and accelerator
> > > was really hard to push making you to stop???

>
> > > I had the same problem - the oil pressure and battery lights flashed
> > > on while i was driving and it was too difficult to push for the brakes
> > > to the floor and I used the handbreak instead to stop the
> > > car...somebody told me it was due to overheating that's why the lights
> > > flashed. But i did not see the temp gauge moving up to the maximum...

>
> > > So this is also an O2 sensor failure???

>
> > > thanks!!!

>
> > > JD- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Hi,
>
> I just filled up with Petrol and over 197.3 miles I used 6.135 Gallons
> of petrol. So I have about 32 MPG. This I think is what I was getting
> before on my average weekly usage. I had two days worth running with
> the Check Engine Light on, and about five days with the new Oxygen
> Sensor installed. I suspect that the old O2 sensor was still working,
> just that the heater bit was broken. Hence I was only getting bad fuel
> consumption when the car is cold which is not for very long.
>
> So far the car runs like it was before. I cannot tell the difference.
> So I gues so far the Oxygen Sensor is working O.K.
>
> Finger crossed ..... Mike.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


It has been a month now .... still OK .... touch wood....

Best, Mike.
 




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