2004 M3 starting issues, longish

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:44:28 -0400, John E. Yurkon wrote:

> Looking for advice on a 2004 M3. When I leave it in my garage for 2 days
> it will not start the first try. It will only turn over. The second try
> it will start
> instantly, but will sputter while I'm trying to back out. It soon drives
> normaly.
>
> It only seems to not have trouble if I drive it really hard, full throttle
> accelerations,
> before putting it away. With normal highway driving it still behaves this
> way
> also.
>
During your "normal highway driving" what sort of rpm's are you shifting
at? The effect you describe might be more related to how much time the
engine spends above 2500rpm than how much throttle is used. I know for a
fact that my E39 (auto trans w/selectronic, but hey it was a deal I
couldn't pass up) runs much smoother when driven exclusively in
selectronic mode where I can hold the shifts off until somewhere in excess
of 3000rpm.

--
The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.

"John E. Yurkon" > wrote in message
...
> Looking for advice on a 2004 M3. When I leave it in my garage for 2 days
> it will not start the first try. It will only turn over. The second try
it
> will start
> instantly, but will sputter while I'm trying to back out. It soon drives
> normaly.
>
> It only seems to not have trouble if I drive it really hard, full throttle
> accelerations,
> before putting it away. With normal highway driving it still behaves this
> way
> also.
>
> The dealer has tried to verify the problem but couldn't. So I left the
car
> parked
> outside at the dealership for two days and kept the keys. When I tried to
> demonstrate the problem it started perfectly and ran fine as I backed out.
>
> The mechanic who watched said about the trouble starting issues, "This is
a
> high performance engine and they all behave that way..."
>
> When I talked about it seeming dependant on how I drive it before putting
it
> away the service advisor and the mechanic said my 6 mile drive to work
> wasn't
> long enough to warm it up and that fuel was probably condensing on the
> plugs.
> This I don't believe. The coolant temp is normal after only a mile and the
> oil temp
> is normal nearing 3 miles. Even if it's not fully warmed, the cylinders
and
> plugs
> should be hot enough to prevent any condensation. To be fair I didn't
> explain to
> them that highway driving wasn't enough to prevent this behaviour.
>
> The mechanic seemed uninterested but the service advisor is still wanting
to
> satisfy my concerns if possible. I may have to drag them out to my house,
> but I don't want to do this if it really is normal for this "high
> performance engine" to
> behave this way.
>
> In my garage, even though it's detached, the temperature remains a pretty
> constant
> 70 degs during the Summer. At the dealership it was exposed to 85 outside
> air temps
> plus the heat of the sun on a black car. That might account for them
being
> unable
> to duplicate the problem.
>
> So, any advice on whether this is a problem I should worry about or
whether
> it
> is normal? There are no abnormal codes when they read them out.
>
> John
>
>

Not to state the obvious, but surely this vehicle is under warranty? Let BMW
sort it out, hell that's one of the reasons we pay so much for these
cars.........

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:16:26 +0100, "Ash"
> wrote:

>
>"John E. Yurkon" > wrote in message
...
>> Looking for advice on a 2004 M3. When I leave it in my garage for 2 days
>> it will not start the first try. It will only turn over. The second try
>it
>> will start
>> instantly, but will sputter while I'm trying to back out. It soon drives
>> normaly.
>>
>> It only seems to not have trouble if I drive it really hard, full throttle
>> accelerations,
>> before putting it away. With normal highway driving it still behaves this
>> way
>> also.
>>
>> The dealer has tried to verify the problem but couldn't. So I left the
>car
>> parked
>> outside at the dealership for two days and kept the keys. When I tried to
>> demonstrate the problem it started perfectly and ran fine as I backed out.
>>
>> The mechanic who watched said about the trouble starting issues, "This is
>a
>> high performance engine and they all behave that way..."
>>
>> When I talked about it seeming dependant on how I drive it before putting
>it
>> away the service advisor and the mechanic said my 6 mile drive to work
>> wasn't
>> long enough to warm it up and that fuel was probably condensing on the
>> plugs.
>> This I don't believe. The coolant temp is normal after only a mile and the
>> oil temp
>> is normal nearing 3 miles. Even if it's not fully warmed, the cylinders
>and
>> plugs
>> should be hot enough to prevent any condensation. To be fair I didn't
>> explain to
>> them that highway driving wasn't enough to prevent this behaviour.
>>
>> The mechanic seemed uninterested but the service advisor is still wanting
>to
>> satisfy my concerns if possible. I may have to drag them out to my house,
>> but I don't want to do this if it really is normal for this "high
>> performance engine" to
>> behave this way.
>>
>> In my garage, even though it's detached, the temperature remains a pretty
>> constant
>> 70 degs during the Summer. At the dealership it was exposed to 85 outside
>> air temps
>> plus the heat of the sun on a black car. That might account for them
>being
>> unable
>> to duplicate the problem.
>>
>> So, any advice on whether this is a problem I should worry about or
>whether
>> it
>> is normal? There are no abnormal codes when they read them out.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>
>Not to state the obvious, but surely this vehicle is under warranty? Let BMW
>sort it out, hell that's one of the reasons we pay so much for these
>cars.........
>

Perhaps you didn't read his post. It's exactly because the dealer has
been ineffective that he is asking for our help...

"Jim Levie" > wrote in message
news
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:44:28 -0400, John E. Yurkon wrote:
>
> During your "normal highway driving" what sort of rpm's are you shifting
> at? The effect you describe might be more related to how much time the
> engine spends above 2500rpm than how much throttle is used. I know for a

Oh, around 4-5k. Sustained driving on highway is 3,000. I usually drive
at 5mph over and the speed limit here is 70. To get 75 I have to drive
at 81 indicated on the speedo. That runs slightly over 3,000 in 6th gear.

> fact that my E39 (auto trans w/selectronic, but hey it was a deal I
> couldn't pass up) runs much smoother when driven exclusively in
> selectronic mode where I can hold the shifts off until somewhere in excess
> of 3000rpm.
>

The service manager is going to talk to some BMW engineers and see what they
think. Also, possibly get one of them to look at the car.

I was really interested to know if anyone else has observed this behaviour
with
their M3.

John

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:44:28 -0400, John E. Yurkon wrote:

> Looking for advice on a 2004 M3. When I leave it in my garage for 2 days
> it will not start the first try. It will only turn over. The second try
> it will start
> instantly, but will sputter while I'm trying to back out. It soon drives
> normaly.
>
> It only seems to not have trouble if I drive it really hard, full throttle
> accelerations,
> before putting it away. With normal highway driving it still behaves this
> way
> also.
>
> The dealer has tried to verify the problem but couldn't. So I left the
> car parked
> outside at the dealership for two days and kept the keys. When I tried to
> demonstrate the problem it started perfectly and ran fine as I backed out.
>
> The mechanic who watched said about the trouble starting issues, "This is
> a high performance engine and they all behave that way..."
>
> When I talked about it seeming dependant on how I drive it before putting
> it away the service advisor and the mechanic said my 6 mile drive to work
> wasn't
> long enough to warm it up and that fuel was probably condensing on the
> plugs.
> This I don't believe. The coolant temp is normal after only a mile and the
> oil temp
> is normal nearing 3 miles. Even if it's not fully warmed, the cylinders
> and plugs
> should be hot enough to prevent any condensation. To be fair I didn't
> explain to
> them that highway driving wasn't enough to prevent this behaviour.
>
> The mechanic seemed uninterested but the service advisor is still wanting
> to satisfy my concerns if possible. I may have to drag them out to my
> house, but I don't want to do this if it really is normal for this "high
> performance engine" to
> behave this way.
>
> In my garage, even though it's detached, the temperature remains a pretty
> constant
> 70 degs during the Summer. At the dealership it was exposed to 85 outside
> air temps
> plus the heat of the sun on a black car. That might account for them
> being unable
> to duplicate the problem.
>
> So, any advice on whether this is a problem I should worry about or
> whether it
> is normal? There are no abnormal codes when they read them out.
>
> John


I have exactly the same problem with my 2003.5. For a while it was
happening regularly, so I made an appointment. 2 days before the
appointment the problem went away, so I canceled it. If you do get it
figured out, post what the problem is so I can tell my dealer. Otherwise
I'm not going to take the car in until my next service (which should be in
like 4k miles), because I don't want to drive a loaner for 2 days while
they fail to verify the problem.

-Aaron

"Aaron Solochek" > wrote in message
news
>
>
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:44:28 -0400, John E. Yurkon wrote:
>
>
> I have exactly the same problem with my 2003.5. For a while it was
> happening regularly, so I made an appointment. 2 days before the
> appointment the problem went away, so I canceled it. If you do get it
> figured out, post what the problem is so I can tell my dealer. Otherwise
> I'm not going to take the car in until my next service (which should be in
> like 4k miles), because I don't want to drive a loaner for 2 days while
> they fail to verify the problem.
>

Well, I looked through the TIS and found a Service Information Bulletin that
describes the problem. If it cranks for a long time with a wet start, that
is
runs rough and possibly some smoke, then after doing all the things they
suggested like trying different fuel, they are to remove the fuel rail,
pressurize
it with air, place the injectors facing downward in water and count the
number
of bubbles in 20 seconds. If they exceed 2 then they are to replace the
injector.

If you have a leaking injector then the fuel rail will leak down and flood
the engine.
Cranking it the first time clears it out. Mine is leaking slowly enough,
apparently, so
that it takes more than a day to flood. Parking it outside where the sun
heats it
evaporates the fuel so it's difficult to reproduce for the dealer.

I asked the service manager if he had read this SIB, he thought I was
talking
about the one that deals with a program update. He had not read this one.
It's especially bothersome to me since the mechanic had scofffed at my
suggestion that it was an injector.

Mine was worse, it was doing it daily, but now its only if I don't drive it
for a complete day.
The leak might be small enough to not fail their test, in which case they'll
refuse
to replace any of them since BMW won't reimburse them in that case.

Rather annoying.

I had tried Shell, BP and they wanted me to try another gas so they
suggested
AMOCO. Guess they don't realize Amoco is BP. Only other choice I had
was Marathon. 10% ethanol.

BTW, it applies to all BMW models, at least up through model year 2002. I
don't
have a more recent TIS than that.

John

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:24:32 -0400, John E Yurkon wrote:

>
> "Aaron Solochek" > wrote in message
> news
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:44:28 -0400, John E. Yurkon wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have exactly the same problem with my 2003.5. For a while it was
>> happening regularly, so I made an appointment. 2 days before the
>> appointment the problem went away, so I canceled it. If you do get it
>> figured out, post what the problem is so I can tell my dealer.
>> Otherwise I'm not going to take the car in until my next service (which
>> should be in like 4k miles), because I don't want to drive a loaner for
>> 2 days while they fail to verify the problem.
>>
>>
> Well, I looked through the TIS and found a Service Information Bulletin
> that describes the problem. If it cranks for a long time with a wet
> start, that is
> runs rough and possibly some smoke, then after doing all the things they
> suggested like trying different fuel, they are to remove the fuel rail,
> pressurize
> it with air, place the injectors facing downward in water and count the
> number
> of bubbles in 20 seconds. If they exceed 2 then they are to replace the
> injector.
>
> If you have a leaking injector then the fuel rail will leak down and flood
> the engine.
> Cranking it the first time clears it out. Mine is leaking slowly enough,
> apparently, so
> that it takes more than a day to flood. Parking it outside where the sun
> heats it
> evaporates the fuel so it's difficult to reproduce for the dealer.
>
Injectors leaking down would certainly be a problem. but I can't see them
being influenced by "full throttle accelerations", like the OP said. His
problem description sounds more like plug fouling or carbon build up or
perhaps contamination of the hot wire in the MAF.

--
The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.

"Jim Levie" > wrote in message
news
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:24:32 -0400, John E Yurkon wrote:
> Injectors leaking down would certainly be a problem. but I can't see them
> being influenced by "full throttle accelerations", like the OP said. His
> problem description sounds more like plug fouling or carbon build up or
> perhaps contamination of the hot wire in the MAF.

I'm the OP. You have a point. I would think though that long drives at
75mph,
3,000rpm would clear the fouling and/or carbon. Another symptom that I
didn't mention was that occasionally I smell gasoline outside the vehicle
after
it's parked for awhile. I haven't paid enough attention to see if it's
correlated
with the long cranking times.

John

I tried Marathon which has 10% ethanol. The maximum BMW allows under their
emissions warranty. The car starts fine with this gas. I began to wonder
if they were right about it being a gas issue than a car problem.

After a little searching I found that the Lower Explosive limits (LEL) and
Upper Explosive Limits (UEL) a

Ethanol LEL 3.3% UEL 19%
Gasoline 100Oct LEL 1.4% UEL 7.8%. I don't know what a 10% mixture yields,
but it's clear that it would widen the explosive range making it easier to
start. Especially under a flooded condition. So, I think the ethanol is
just covering up a leaky injector problem.

John

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:31:30 -0400, John E. Yurkon wrote:

> I tried Marathon which has 10% ethanol. The maximum BMW allows under
> their emissions warranty. The car starts fine with this gas. I began to
> wonder if they were right about it being a gas issue than a car problem.
>
> After a little searching I found that the Lower Explosive limits (LEL) and
> Upper Explosive Limits (UEL) a
>
> Ethanol LEL 3.3% UEL 19%
> Gasoline 100Oct LEL 1.4% UEL 7.8%. I don't know what a 10% mixture
> yields, but it's clear that it would widen the explosive range making it
> easier to start. Especially under a flooded condition. So, I think the
> ethanol is just covering up a leaky injector problem.
>
It may be that a Gasoline/Ethanol mix has a wider firing range, but that
doesn't explain why large throttle opening driving results in a easy
start. I'd imagine that there's enough partial throttle use wile you are
parking the car to have run the fuel delivery pressure back "up to the
rail". So if it were to be a leaking injector that was the cause you
should see the same result, regardless of driving style.

It really sound to me like there's a coking problem that really agressive
driving burns off. If the plugs are carbon fouling running an Ethanol
mixture would help, both do to the ease of ignition and the fact that
combustion is a bit cleaner. It should be pretty easy to find out by
driving at low revs and then examining the plugs for fouling. If the
engine management stuff is doing the right thing the plugs should have a
"fawn brown" color. A blackish appearance would indicate too rich a
mixture.

--
The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.