GT4 Driving view

Ronald Stoehr > wrote:

>So you get 5 speeding tickets a week, right?

You're actually proving my point. Most unintentional speeding tickets
are caused by someone not consciously flicking their eyes down to the
speedometer often enough.

Joe62

Connected > wrote:

>When I drive my car I certainly don't see the road and nothing else.
>The hood of my car sits out in front about five feet at least.

You have a hood-view in GT4

>No
>cockpit racers are for arcade weenies.

A highly cogent argument.

Joe62

"Joe62" wrote...
>> <snip>
> Oh please. This is such a useless tired old cliche of an
> argument.
> When driving a real car you don't even really see the
> cockpit; your brain filters out all that extraneous info
> to focus on the important data coming through the
> windshield.

Yes, obviously, I do not look at the dash parts in a sim other than to read
the instruments either, but the point, with reference to creating a "driving
a car" instead of a "remote controlling a car" experience, is that my
viewpoint is not moved away from the actual driving position, be it to in
front of the front axle or several feet behind and above the car as in GT4.

To reverse your argument, it's hard for me to grasp anyone "not seeing" this
after 16 years of racing simulation.

Jan.
=---

"Jan Verschueren" > wrote in
:

> "Joe62" wrote...
>>> <snip>
>> Oh please. This is such a useless tired old cliche of an
>> argument.
>> When driving a real car you don't even really see the
>> cockpit; your brain filters out all that extraneous info
>> to focus on the important data coming through the
>> windshield.
>
> Yes, obviously, I do not look at the dash parts in a sim other than to
> read the instruments either, but the point, with reference to creating
> a "driving a car" instead of a "remote controlling a car" experience,
> is that my viewpoint is not moved away from the actual driving
> position, be it to in front of the front axle or several feet behind
> and above the car as in GT4.
>
> To reverse your argument, it's hard for me to grasp anyone "not
> seeing" this after 16 years of racing simulation.
>
> Jan.
> =---
>
Agreed. Cockpit is the natural view. We are simulating DRIVING. We
drive from a seat INSIDE the car, not perched on the front bumper and
certainly not floating cosmicly above and behind like some quasi-god.
If I wanted a non cockpit viewing angle, then Generally with it's top
down view is just as 'real' as any nose-picking view.
I'm not saying GT4 isn't a good piece of code, but it's lack of
several sim features really penalizes it when comparing products. Can
you race against cars that can take and cause damage? Does your
performance suffer if that happens? Does the AI speed up or slow down
depending upon your progress?
I noticed in one of the promo adds, they had A BMW LMR V12 Le Mans car
racing against a C60 Courage. Kudos for them, even tho I'm betting 98%
of GT4's target audience doesn't have the slightest clue about the kind
of racing those cars participated in.
As a simmer who races online, I want my competitors to face the same
restrictions of view that I do. Nobody can say a kite flyer on an oval
doesn't have an advantage, he can see the distance to the wall, he can
see how close the other cars are to his side, those are advantages that
are not possible in real racing and thus should dissuade a true 'Simmer.'
The fact that two generations have grown up thumb-driving behind cars
from console products will only add to this divergence.

Use GT4 all you want, enjoy it's diversity, marvel at it's near
lifelike graphics, "thrill" to competing against a half dozen other cars,
but don't even begin to think that it compares to titles with 40 or 50+
car fields with damage physics and AI that attempt to mimic racecraft and
and incar views.

As Jan stated, you can be an R/C operator, or you can be a simulated
pilot driving your car, not operating it from a distance.
So float behind your car all you want, I'm sure you'll be emminently
qualified when a true Hang Gliding sim finally is released. But don't
expect folks like me to ACCEPT your lame justification that hanging your
butt on the bumper is "JUST LIKE THE REAL THING!" Your brain may be able
to filter out this non-sequiter, mine can't.

dave henrie

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:32:15 -0600, Dave Henrie
> wrote:

<snip>
> So float behind your car all you want, I'm sure you'll be emminently
>qualified when a true Hang Gliding sim finally is released.

http://www.pcgameworld.com/review.php/id/142/Hang_Sim/
Enjoy

Andre

In article 36>, Dave Henrie > wrote:

> So float behind your car all you want, I'm sure you'll be emminently
>qualified when a true Hang Gliding sim finally is released. But don't
>expect folks like me to ACCEPT your lame justification that hanging your
>butt on the bumper is "JUST LIKE THE REAL THING!"

Are you so sure that it is on the bumper? It looks more like a
view from the drivers seat, but without dash and fenders visible.
Now admittedly that's a big but (one 't'), however that isn't the
same as the "bumper" view the detractors insist on using. Perhaps
to belittle it more than warranted?

EXCEEDINGLY well-put, Dave!

"Dave Henrie" > wrote in message
. 97.136...
> "Jan Verschueren" > wrote in
> :
>
> > "Joe62" wrote...
> >>> <snip>
> >> Oh please. This is such a useless tired old cliche of an
> >> argument.
> >> When driving a real car you don't even really see the
> >> cockpit; your brain filters out all that extraneous info
> >> to focus on the important data coming through the
> >> windshield.
> >
> > Yes, obviously, I do not look at the dash parts in a sim other than to
> > read the instruments either, but the point, with reference to creating
> > a "driving a car" instead of a "remote controlling a car" experience,
> > is that my viewpoint is not moved away from the actual driving
> > position, be it to in front of the front axle or several feet behind
> > and above the car as in GT4.
> >
> > To reverse your argument, it's hard for me to grasp anyone "not
> > seeing" this after 16 years of racing simulation.
> >
> > Jan.
> > =---
> >
> Agreed. Cockpit is the natural view. We are simulating DRIVING. We
> drive from a seat INSIDE the car, not perched on the front bumper and
> certainly not floating cosmicly above and behind like some quasi-god.
> If I wanted a non cockpit viewing angle, then Generally with it's top
> down view is just as 'real' as any nose-picking view.
> I'm not saying GT4 isn't a good piece of code, but it's lack of
> several sim features really penalizes it when comparing products. Can
> you race against cars that can take and cause damage? Does your
> performance suffer if that happens? Does the AI speed up or slow down
> depending upon your progress?
> I noticed in one of the promo adds, they had A BMW LMR V12 Le Mans car
> racing against a C60 Courage. Kudos for them, even tho I'm betting 98%
> of GT4's target audience doesn't have the slightest clue about the kind
> of racing those cars participated in.
> As a simmer who races online, I want my competitors to face the same
> restrictions of view that I do. Nobody can say a kite flyer on an oval
> doesn't have an advantage, he can see the distance to the wall, he can
> see how close the other cars are to his side, those are advantages that
> are not possible in real racing and thus should dissuade a true 'Simmer.'
> The fact that two generations have grown up thumb-driving behind cars
> from console products will only add to this divergence.
>
> Use GT4 all you want, enjoy it's diversity, marvel at it's near
> lifelike graphics, "thrill" to competing against a half dozen other cars,
> but don't even begin to think that it compares to titles with 40 or 50+
> car fields with damage physics and AI that attempt to mimic racecraft and
> and incar views.
>
> As Jan stated, you can be an R/C operator, or you can be a simulated
> pilot driving your car, not operating it from a distance.
> So float behind your car all you want, I'm sure you'll be emminently
> qualified when a true Hang Gliding sim finally is released. But don't
> expect folks like me to ACCEPT your lame justification that hanging your
> butt on the bumper is "JUST LIKE THE REAL THING!" Your brain may be able
> to filter out this non-sequiter, mine can't.
>
> dave henrie
>
>

"Dave" wrote...
>> <snip>
> Are you so sure that it is on the bumper? It looks more
> like a view from the drivers seat, but without dash and
> fenders visible.

Are you kidding? -of course it's a bumper cam. While it may not be at bumper
height for the Sauber (C9 or C11, I guess?), if you compare it's
significantly lower than the dash view in the Strietzel M3 clip. From the
way the viewpoint reacts as the car clips the kerbs it's also fairly obvious
to me it's in front of the front axle and situated smack in the middle of
the car, whereas the Sauber prototypes are right hand drive.

> Now admittedly that's a big but (one 't'), however that
> isn't the same as the "bumper" view the detractors insist
> on using. Perhaps to belittle it more than warranted?

It's "front of the hood" view at best.

Don't get me wrong: not having a cockpit view, in itself, does not detract
from a game, IMO, unless it claims to be a simulation.

Jan.
=---

>> Don't get me wrong: not having a cockpit view, in itself, does not
detract
>> from a game, IMO, unless it claims to be a simulation.

That's why I've never played a sports game. NFL, NBA, NHL, Soccer,
there are alot of sports that call them selves simulatrions, but unless
they're all done from a 1st person perspective, then they're simply
kiddie games. The Sims? How can that be called a simulator? It
doesn't simulate 99% of what it means to be a human.

People, it's called a S-I-M-U-L-A-T-I-O-N. Simply because something
doesn't simulate every nuance of an activity doesn't mean it's not a
simulation. GT4 is every bit a simulation as Grand Prix Legends,
Nascar 2003, GTR, GTP, and any other product you want to throw out.

sim=B7u=B7la=B7tion P Pronunciation Key (smy-lshn)
n=2E
The act or process of simulating.

- An imitation; a sham.
- Assumption of a false appearance.
- Imitation or representation, as of a potential situation or in
experimental testing.
- Representation of the operation or features of one process or system
through the use of another: computer simulation of an in-flight
emergency.

> wrote...
>> <snip>
> <attempt at sarcasm snipped>
> People, it's called a S-I-M-U-L-A-T-I-O-N. Simply
> because something doesn't simulate every nuance of
> an activity doesn't mean it's not a simulation.
> GT4 is every bit a simulation as Grand Prix Legends,
> Nascar 2003, GTR, GTP, and any other product you
> want to throw out.
>
> <general definition snipped>

Yes, I'm aware the general definition of simulation covers a broad spectrum,
that's why the likes of Codemasters and Polyphony get away with using it as
an adjective with regard to their products.

In the context of this group and driving/racing simulations, however, I tend
to use a rather more strict definition of the term, as do most posters I
think.

As any further elaboration has been proven pointless in the past, I'd like
to leave it at that. We've strayed far enough from the original point(*) as
it is.

Jan.
=---
(*): which was that the omission of a cockpit view in GT4 puts off a lot of
simmers who otherwise enjoy less elaborate sims, not "GT4 is crap because it
doesn't have a cockpit view", BTW.