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Opinion on iRacing short falls.



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 20th 09, 10:07 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Niles Anders[_1_]
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Posts: 27
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

I was listening to the interview with Eric Alexander at Opinion Nation,
especially about leagues at iRacing. Eric says, and I'm paraphrasing,
that iRacing fears that if they allow private leagues then guys will go
"hide" in those leagues and undermine what iRacing is about.

Think about that. If simply allowing private leagues would undermine
their licensing concept, what does that say about the viability of that
concept overall? To me it shows it's a weak concept. I would predict
that if they did allow private leagues that their "driving school game"
would die immediately because it has such small appeal now anyway. And
that contributes to why so few veteran SIM racers want to be involved
with it. The concept is a divider not a uniter.

When you listen to almost everyone talk about iRacing they have as many
negative things to say as positive. I believe it's because they, the
racers, have no control at affecting changes that can improve their SIM
Racing. Racers like the technology of their cars and tracks so they put
up with the game concept, in the short run. But if they could change it,
they would.

Eric's comments hit directly on what's wrong with the iRacing concept.
And that's that, if given the opportunity to do private leagues and exit
the "licensing" system, the "licensing" system would die in short order.
And iRacing knows it. So iRacing demonstrates control by saying if you
want to use our SIM technology you must submit to licensing. Overall the
people I race with resoundingly say "hell no."

iRacing's friendship loyalties to Nim Cross is their downfall. They have
thrown so much time and money at it, as well as creating their own
internal culture of emotional reenforcement, they are paralyzed to
effect change in this regard. Even though the SIM racing public has
already spoken with their wallets. The answer is "no."

iRacing could still monetize their product and increase revenue simply
by letting league managers do it their way. Racers would still have to
buy their cars and tracks to race in the league. iRacing cuts it's own
throat by wanting to execute such maniacal control.

And with all that said, if they don't have the cars I want to race, Indy
Cars, then I'd still be doing rFactor anyway.

Opinion by Niles

PS: All the stuff I said here still applies
http://www.mnrlonline.com/forum/view...hp?f=60&t=5178.
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  #2  
Old May 21st 09, 12:07 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
David Fisher's Left Testicle
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Posts: 178
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

I agree with that. And I'd happily pay per race to race in a proper league.
So mine is money iRacing could have. And there are many more people like me
than there are current members of iRacing, imo.

"Niles Anders" > wrote in message
...
>I was listening to the interview with Eric Alexander at Opinion Nation,
>especially about leagues at iRacing. Eric says, and I'm paraphrasing, that
>iRacing fears that if they allow private leagues then guys will go "hide"
>in those leagues and undermine what iRacing is about.
>
> Think about that. If simply allowing private leagues would undermine their
> licensing concept, what does that say about the viability of that concept
> overall? To me it shows it's a weak concept. I would predict that if they
> did allow private leagues that their "driving school game" would die
> immediately because it has such small appeal now anyway. And that
> contributes to why so few veteran SIM racers want to be involved with it.
> The concept is a divider not a uniter.
>
> When you listen to almost everyone talk about iRacing they have as many
> negative things to say as positive. I believe it's because they, the
> racers, have no control at affecting changes that can improve their SIM
> Racing. Racers like the technology of their cars and tracks so they put up
> with the game concept, in the short run. But if they could change it, they
> would.
>
> Eric's comments hit directly on what's wrong with the iRacing concept. And
> that's that, if given the opportunity to do private leagues and exit the
> "licensing" system, the "licensing" system would die in short order. And
> iRacing knows it. So iRacing demonstrates control by saying if you want to
> use our SIM technology you must submit to licensing. Overall the people I
> race with resoundingly say "hell no."
>
> iRacing's friendship loyalties to Nim Cross is their downfall. They have
> thrown so much time and money at it, as well as creating their own
> internal culture of emotional reenforcement, they are paralyzed to effect
> change in this regard. Even though the SIM racing public has already
> spoken with their wallets. The answer is "no."
>
> iRacing could still monetize their product and increase revenue simply by
> letting league managers do it their way. Racers would still have to buy
> their cars and tracks to race in the league. iRacing cuts it's own throat
> by wanting to execute such maniacal control.
>
> And with all that said, if they don't have the cars I want to race, Indy
> Cars, then I'd still be doing rFactor anyway.
>
> Opinion by Niles
>
> PS: All the stuff I said here still applies
> http://www.mnrlonline.com/forum/view...hp?f=60&t=5178.


  #3  
Old May 21st 09, 12:33 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Tony R
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 207
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

Niles Anders wrote:

> Think about that. If simply allowing private leagues would undermine
> their licensing concept, what does that say about the viability of that
> concept overall? To me it shows it's a weak concept. I would predict
> that if they did allow private leagues that their "driving school game"
> would die immediately because it has such small appeal now anyway. And
> that contributes to why so few veteran SIM racers want to be involved
> with it. The concept is a divider not a uniter.


Sim racing has been a contracting niche since the early copies of
Papyrus' Nascar titles sold in excess of 1 million. In the absence of
any developer led or official sanctioning body grasping the nettle, sim
racing fans have done a pretty good job organising themselves, arguably
better than F1 right now!

However, for potential new sim racers the entry into the decent leagues
is a matter of luck and a simple google search a find plenty of
examples of league forums that have disintegrated into flame wars and/or
fizzled out mid season to a handful of drivers.

For those in the decent leagues their only need is the sim - the rest
they can do, but it is no recipe for expanding sim racing. As long as
the sims keep coming why should they worry?

The reality is the sims aren't keeping coming. The major publishers gave
up on PC sim racing years ago in favour of either console racers or
different genres. The small studios are doing a decent job along with
the home made community mods, yet to attract in major developer is
going to take a significant change in the market.

Many consumers will focus on the now and view iRacing as another boxed
title but with annoying restrictions. Simply feeding the existing niche
community isn't going to justify the development costs. So it needs to
provide the venue for races to pool sim racers for its systems of
getting drivers racing of similar capabilities to experience the quality
of racing first hand and establish numbers to gain momentum for new
racers to come in. We now see the Nascar deal in a timeline where new
fans can join in where there is already an established membership
initially from the existing sim racing community.

To gain this momentum iRacing need to control the numbers through
limiting fragmentation. Fancy running Spec Racers around Daytona for 5
laps? The option isn't going to be there. Sim racers used to zillions of
options of cars and tracks and choosing their own rules wil be
disappointed, yet this is exactly what destroyed pick up racing in the
past. To bring order to this chaos iRacing have grasped the nettle and
there will always be groups who will do something different and there
are alternatives - but they will be the niche groups as we have in all
sports.

If iRacing succeeds it will become the de facto sim racing service which
in my view is exactly what sim racing has needed for many years and may
grow sim racing beyond its ill perceived computer gaming image.

That doesn't mean everyone else packs up, the small studios will still
have niche gaps to fill but we as consumers will have a major developer
in the mix, something that wouldn't have happened without iRacing's
vision for change.

Cheers
Tony
  #4  
Old May 21st 09, 03:03 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
kludger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

On May 20, 2:07*pm, Niles Anders > wrote:
>SNIP
> Think about that. If simply allowing private leagues would undermine
> their licensing concept, what does that say about the viability of that
> concept overall? To me it shows it's a weak concept. I would predict
> that if they did allow private leagues that their "driving school game"
> would die immediately because it has such small appeal now anyway. And
> that contributes to why so few veteran SIM racers want to be involved
> with it. The concept is a divider not a uniter.


Personally I like the iRacing "driving school game" just fine, it
allows for a controlled car/track class system but with a flexible
schedule and participation list which is compatible with real life
time commitments and doesn't require being part of any cliques. Most
every night I can join fun quality pickup races at the times of day
that are convenient to me, while at the same time feeling like my
performance and career data continues to build along with my driving
skills and safety rating.

While I wish the private leagues outside iRacing (and in the future
inside iRacing as well) the best, I personally don't have a real life
schedule like I did 10 years ago that is compatible with the time
investment necessary for the typical league practice/qual/racing
schedule, nor with amount of socializing that usually accompanies
being a good participant in a league or team.

To each his own and I think there are niches for different types of
sim racing, for my busy life the default iRacing system has lots of
appeal, and is actually a feature I like and was willing to pay for
after the free month trial, and I'm hoping the introduction of leagues
into iRacing will complement the default iRacing system instead of
competing with it.
  #5  
Old May 21st 09, 03:59 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Byron Forbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 212
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

Yep.

To me, all iRacing need to do is offer their sanctioned stuff as well as
let everyone do their own thing.

But is this a flashback to the crackdown on third party stuff for N2003?
Are they threatened by this also? Am I detecting a little paranoia?


"Tony R" > wrote in message
...
> Niles Anders wrote:
>
>> Think about that. If simply allowing private leagues would undermine
>> their licensing concept, what does that say about the viability of that
>> concept overall? To me it shows it's a weak concept. I would predict that
>> if they did allow private leagues that their "driving school game" would
>> die immediately because it has such small appeal now anyway. And that
>> contributes to why so few veteran SIM racers want to be involved with it.
>> The concept is a divider not a uniter.

>
> Sim racing has been a contracting niche since the early copies of Papyrus'
> Nascar titles sold in excess of 1 million. In the absence of any developer
> led or official sanctioning body grasping the nettle, sim racing fans have
> done a pretty good job organising themselves, arguably better than F1
> right now!
>
> However, for potential new sim racers the entry into the decent leagues is
> a matter of luck and a simple google search a find plenty of examples of
> league forums that have disintegrated into flame wars and/or fizzled out
> mid season to a handful of drivers.
>
> For those in the decent leagues their only need is the sim - the rest they
> can do, but it is no recipe for expanding sim racing. As long as the sims
> keep coming why should they worry?
>
> The reality is the sims aren't keeping coming. The major publishers gave
> up on PC sim racing years ago in favour of either console racers or
> different genres. The small studios are doing a decent job along with the
> home made community mods, yet to attract in major developer is going to
> take a significant change in the market.
>
> Many consumers will focus on the now and view iRacing as another boxed
> title but with annoying restrictions. Simply feeding the existing niche
> community isn't going to justify the development costs. So it needs to
> provide the venue for races to pool sim racers for its systems of getting
> drivers racing of similar capabilities to experience the quality of racing
> first hand and establish numbers to gain momentum for new racers to come
> in. We now see the Nascar deal in a timeline where new fans can join in
> where there is already an established membership initially from the
> existing sim racing community.
>
> To gain this momentum iRacing need to control the numbers through limiting
> fragmentation. Fancy running Spec Racers around Daytona for 5 laps? The
> option isn't going to be there. Sim racers used to zillions of options of
> cars and tracks and choosing their own rules wil be disappointed, yet this
> is exactly what destroyed pick up racing in the past. To bring order to
> this chaos iRacing have grasped the nettle and there will always be groups
> who will do something different and there are alternatives - but they will
> be the niche groups as we have in all sports.
>
> If iRacing succeeds it will become the de facto sim racing service which
> in my view is exactly what sim racing has needed for many years and may
> grow sim racing beyond its ill perceived computer gaming image.
>
> That doesn't mean everyone else packs up, the small studios will still
> have niche gaps to fill but we as consumers will have a major developer in
> the mix, something that wouldn't have happened without iRacing's vision
> for change.
>
> Cheers
> Tony


  #6  
Old May 21st 09, 07:11 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Andrew MacPherson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

(Niles Anders) wrote:

> what does that say about the viability of that
> concept overall? To me it shows it's a weak concept.


I think we have to accept that when John Henry says he's in it for the long haul,
he means it (for now anyway). In that case they can afford to make only small
concessions (like *very* limited leagues) to the demands of the existing user base.

There are any number of things they could do to open this amazing sim code up to a
much wider audience, but at this stage they have no interest, or need, to do it. So
that leads to some decisions which looks strange or weak from the outside (and
inside!)

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that there is no chance that iRacing will
deviate substantially from their planned course over the next few years, because
they really are serious about the whole 'sport' thing, and have the money (inc.
subscriptions) to fund it.

To me it'll always be geeks (like me) and wannabes sat behind a desk having fun.
But everyone's entitled to their dreams, and if JH is willing to pump $20+ million
into his dream, who am I to argue? All I can do is decide whether the pleasure
iRacing has to offer outweighs the pain of their pricing model and racing
structure.

At the moment I keep finding myself boiling it down to fundamentals... I am
grateful that Kaemmer is still working on something he clearly loves. iRacing is
GPL2 even if it's GPL2 with all sorts of baggage I don't really want. And even
though it hurts my pride to hand over so much money for 'just a game', I also have
to accept the fundamental that I enjoy doing it.

Some days anyway. When I got a phantom x4 penalty and an SR hit for being near a
wreck yesterday I was less impressed. :->

For as long as it exists -- which may or may not be a long time -- iRacing will
continue to be a project we all have pretty strong feelings about. I can't help but
feel that's a good thing. If it was truly awful there'd be nothing to discuss.

Andrew McP
  #8  
Old May 21st 09, 07:57 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
jeffareid
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 176
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

>driving school game

Except that it doesn't serve that purpose, iRacing is an online
pickup racing game, not a school or a training tool.

For racing teams interested in a training or development tool,
they will buy something like rFactor pro (not the consumer
product, but a tool that rFactor customizes for each customer).

> Sim racing has been a contracting niche since the early copies
> of Papyrus' Nascar titles sold in excess of 1 million.


NFS Shift could change this. EA has the money, the people,
including 25 ex GTR employess, the resources and the data to
make a great sim if they choose to do so. What I'm hoping for
is a very realistic sim, with fantasy cars with over the top
physics and assists to draw in the NFS arcade fans. Sales
for NFS games are also down, but we're talking from
Underground 2's and Most Wanted's 9 million copies sold to
Carbon and Prostreets 5.5 million each. Still huge numbers.
To EA, spending 10 to 20 million on a game isn't an issue
when they sell 5 million copies or more.

I'm still sticking with my original prediction that iRacing's
current pricing model will only last about 3 years.


  #9  
Old May 21st 09, 06:10 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Niles Anders[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

Byron, I have suspected paranoia too. But I think they really want to
own SIM Racing. I know that sounds a little wacky but FIRST is modeled
like the FIA and it appears they want to displace leagues with their
model. I don't think their long term model is good for SIM racing overall.

We've raced together before and I can't remember what league it was
with. But you're Australian, right?

Byron Forbes wrote:
> Yep.
>
> To me, all iRacing need to do is offer their sanctioned stuff as well
> as let everyone do their own thing.
>
> But is this a flashback to the crackdown on third party stuff for
> N2003? Are they threatened by this also? Am I detecting a little paranoia?
>
>
> "Tony R" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Niles Anders wrote:
>>
>>> Think about that. If simply allowing private leagues would undermine
>>> their licensing concept, what does that say about the viability of
>>> that concept overall? To me it shows it's a weak concept. I would
>>> predict that if they did allow private leagues that their "driving
>>> school game" would die immediately because it has such small appeal
>>> now anyway. And that contributes to why so few veteran SIM racers
>>> want to be involved with it. The concept is a divider not a uniter.

>>
>> Sim racing has been a contracting niche since the early copies of
>> Papyrus' Nascar titles sold in excess of 1 million. In the absence of
>> any developer led or official sanctioning body grasping the nettle,
>> sim racing fans have done a pretty good job organising themselves,
>> arguably better than F1 right now!
>>
>> However, for potential new sim racers the entry into the decent
>> leagues is a matter of luck and a simple google search a find plenty
>> of examples of league forums that have disintegrated into flame wars
>> and/or fizzled out mid season to a handful of drivers.
>>
>> For those in the decent leagues their only need is the sim - the rest
>> they can do, but it is no recipe for expanding sim racing. As long as
>> the sims keep coming why should they worry?
>>
>> The reality is the sims aren't keeping coming. The major publishers
>> gave up on PC sim racing years ago in favour of either console racers
>> or different genres. The small studios are doing a decent job along
>> with the home made community mods, yet to attract in major developer
>> is going to take a significant change in the market.
>>
>> Many consumers will focus on the now and view iRacing as another boxed
>> title but with annoying restrictions. Simply feeding the existing
>> niche community isn't going to justify the development costs. So it
>> needs to provide the venue for races to pool sim racers for its
>> systems of getting drivers racing of similar capabilities to
>> experience the quality of racing first hand and establish numbers to
>> gain momentum for new racers to come in. We now see the Nascar deal in
>> a timeline where new fans can join in where there is already an
>> established membership initially from the existing sim racing community.
>>
>> To gain this momentum iRacing need to control the numbers through
>> limiting fragmentation. Fancy running Spec Racers around Daytona for 5
>> laps? The option isn't going to be there. Sim racers used to zillions
>> of options of cars and tracks and choosing their own rules wil be
>> disappointed, yet this is exactly what destroyed pick up racing in the
>> past. To bring order to this chaos iRacing have grasped the nettle and
>> there will always be groups who will do something different and there
>> are alternatives - but they will be the niche groups as we have in all
>> sports.
>>
>> If iRacing succeeds it will become the de facto sim racing service
>> which in my view is exactly what sim racing has needed for many years
>> and may grow sim racing beyond its ill perceived computer gaming image.
>>
>> That doesn't mean everyone else packs up, the small studios will still
>> have niche gaps to fill but we as consumers will have a major
>> developer in the mix, something that wouldn't have happened without
>> iRacing's vision for change.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Tony

>

  #10  
Old May 21st 09, 09:29 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
yankees baby
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Posts: 4
Default Opinion on iRacing short falls.

Niles its me your old friend, PENIS BOY from Rfactor. Hows it going
gay?
 




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