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I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 2nd 17, 03:24 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
Jonas Schneider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:50:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>> I have nothing against good service, but since I mount and balance my own
>> tires, I can't think of why I would need that good service?

>
> Very few of us mount our own tires. I can't justify the investment when
> I buy a set of tires every18 months at best.


I think most of us don't do "hard" things, where we define "hard" any way
we want.

For example, probably none of us roof our own homes.
Probably none of us pump our own septic systems.
Many of us don't even maintain our own pool chemistry.

In the realm of automobile maintenance, most of us don't replace clutches,
nor do most of us blueprint an engine. Probably we do basic repairs, but I
agree with you that most people consider both mounting tires and aligning
the steering and suspension to be jobs we routinely farm out.

Having said that we farm out the "hard" jobs, you'll note that I think your
statement is completely incorrect that we can't "justify the investment".

Mounting and balancing tools are about three hundred bucks, where it's
trivial to justify that investment based on your cycle of 18 months per
vehicle for a set of tires.

At 20 per tire the equipment pays for itself in 15 tires, which for two
cars would be about six years (at 18 months per set) if I did the math
right.

Likewise, alignment equipment is similarly priced at about three to five
hundred bucks, which at a price of alignments at about a hundred bucks out
here (on sale), would pay for itself in just a few years for a two-car
family.

Everyone "says" they can't justify the price - but the real reason we don't
do alignment is that there is a tremendous amount of thinking that has to
do on in order to convert length to angles and vice versa.

Similarly, the reason people don't do their own mounting and balancing is
not the justification of the price - but it's the hard work involved - and
also a bit of learning about technique.

> Let's call it "good value". I don't mind paying a little more at times
> but I certainly don't want to get gouged. I try to check out prices
> before buying anything. Lowest price is not always the cheapest buy.


There are no blanket absolutes, where I agree with you that most people
zoom into price and price alone as the arbiter of quality.

The main problem I see with humans is that they're basically incapable of
handling the detail that is required to get the best price-to-performance
value of complex objects.

For example, how many times have you seen someone shop for car batteries by
warrantee length, for example? That's ridiculous. Yet people do it. You
know why? They can't handle the complexity of amps and amp hours.

Likewise with tires. They buy them by treadwear warrantee claims, as if
that was in the least meaningful. You know why? Because people who can't
handle detail can still handle numbers. To them, a tire with a 45K mile
warrantee is better than a tire with a 35K mile warrantee - simply because
they can process the fact that 45K is a larger number than 35K is.

My theory is that the reason why people think that price is an indication
of quality is only because they don't know how to determine quality - but -
they can figure out price. So, to make their simple minds process the
problem set, they immediately assume a $500 tire is better than a $100
tire.

>> What's the absolute worst thing that can happen to a tire?

> Ask the guy that has a flat spare because he never check it.


I've seen people who get flats park their car on the shoulder, and call for
a ride (or call for AAA). Mostly women, where, I agree, some SUV tires are
extremely heavy, and it's not worth getting run over at night in the rain
while you're changing a spare tire.

But most of us can change our own tires.

Besides, most of us carry a 12-VDC compressor in the trunk along with the
OEM jack, triangle reflectors, chocks, spare tools, a flashlight, etc.

> You'd be right if I was driving my '62 Corvair with 13" wheels. I need
> 245/45R18 and cheap ones ar $92 and go up to $260. I drive enough to
> justify a good tire over one that just has to go 2 miles to the grocery
> store.


How do you define a "good tire"?

Your argument above seems to assume a $92 tire is worse than a $260 tire.
But your argument didn't say a single thing about what you use to determine
what a "good tire" is.

Price has absolutely no bearing on quality.
Price is only an indication of demand.

There are a *lot* of not-so-intelligent people out there who will pay
upwards of tens of thousands of dollars for a diamond-studded watch, but
that doesn't mean you get any better of a time piece than a ten-dollar
Timex.

>> However, you're NOT getting the best priceerformance deal at 600 bucks
>> for a set of four tires. That's fine, if you're flush with money, simply
>> because money isn't important to anyone who has a lot of it.

>
> Questionable. I want a good tire when I hit 100 mph so I;m willing to
> pay for it.


AFAIK, no standard passenger car tire is legal to sell in the USA that
won't go 112 mph. The "S" rating is the slowest tire that is allowed to be
sold in the USA for standard-use passenger on-road tires.

That means you won't be able to find a tire for your car that can't go 100
mph, especially at that size.

Nonetheless, how would you compare these tires at Walmart today?

$73 Milestar MS932 Sport Radial Tire, 245/45R18 100V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Milestar-...-100V/55190013

$80 245/45ZR18 100W BSW Radar Dimax R8 Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/245-45ZR1...Tires/55376322

$81 Rydanz ROADSTER R02 Tire P245/45R18 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Rydanz-RO...-100W/52292477

$105 Nexen N5000 Plus Tire 245/45R18XL 100V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Nexen-N50...-100V/39511145

$114 Antares Ingens A1 245/45R18 100W Tire
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Antares-I...Tires/49651271

$115 General GMAX AS-03 Tire 245/45ZR18XL 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/General-G...R18XL/33092363

$120 Uniroyal Tiger Paw GTZ All Season Tire 245/45ZR18 96W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Uniroyal-...6W-BW/20531817

$126 Kumho ECSTA 4XII Tire 245/45R18 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Kumho-ECS...-100W/44608099

$141 General Altimax RT43 Tire 245/45R18 100V Tire
https://www.walmart.com/ip/General-A...-100V/42955397

$151 245/45-18 HANKOOK VENTUS S1 Noble 2 H452 100W BSW Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ventus-S1...R18XL/43079164

$151 Goodyear Eagle RS-A Tire P245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Goodyear-...-45R18/5172553

$154 BF Goodrich g-Force COMP 2 A/S Tire 245/45ZR18 96W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/BF-Goodri...8-96W/44658605

$157 Cooper CS5 Ultra Touring 100V Tire 245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Cooper-CS...45R18/47406871

$157 Yokohama Advan Sport A/S 100W Tire 245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Yokohama-...45R18/47407491

$171 Continental Extreme Contact DWS06 Tire 245/45ZR18XL 100Y
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Continent...-100Y/44786691

$175 Pirelli PZero All Season Plus 245/45R18XL 100Y
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pirelli-P...-100Y/50554992

$216 Michelin Pilot MXM4 Tire P245/45R18 96V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pilot-HXMXM4/12177683

$232 Vogue Custom Built Radial VIII 245/45R18 100 V Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Vogue-Cus...Tires/50753784

HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
price alone.
Ads
  #22  
Old April 2nd 17, 03:24 AM posted to alt.home.repair,ca.driving,rec.autos.tech
Jonas Schneider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:58:20 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>> On a typical ultra high performance tire which is, say, $75, that means
>> that 1/3 the cost is pure profit online.
>>

>
> What is pure profit? Are you talking the difference between the price
> they pay and the price they sell the tire? That is far from pure.
> OTOH, if you did a cost analysis of the labor and overhead of running
> the business I may agree.


Your question is a fair question, since my original assumption was that
tires are a commodity, where it's not the general nature of a commodity to
sell much above it's cost.

Let's go back to that number to see what it was saying exactly.
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo...issue-2015.pdf

That PDF says that there are 200 million replacement tires sold each year,
where, on page 52 of that document, we find the exact words:
"According to a recent Modern Tire Dealer survey of independent
retail and wholesale tire dealers, the average profit margin
on a passenger tire is 26.4%. For a light truck tire it falls to 24%.
The average wholesale passenger tire sales margin is 12.4%."

  #23  
Old April 2nd 17, 03:24 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
Jonas Schneider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:50:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>> I have nothing against good service, but since I mount and balance my own
>> tires, I can't think of why I would need that good service?

>
> Very few of us mount our own tires. I can't justify the investment when
> I buy a set of tires every18 months at best.


I think most of us don't do "hard" things, where we define "hard" any way
we want.

For example, probably none of us roof our own homes.
Probably none of us pump our own septic systems.
Many of us don't even maintain our own pool chemistry.

In the realm of automobile maintenance, most of us don't replace clutches,
nor do most of us blueprint an engine. Probably we do basic repairs, but I
agree with you that most people consider both mounting tires and aligning
the steering and suspension to be jobs we routinely farm out.

Having said that we farm out the "hard" jobs, you'll note that I think your
statement is completely incorrect that we can't "justify the investment".

Mounting and balancing tools are about three hundred bucks, where it's
trivial to justify that investment based on your cycle of 18 months per
vehicle for a set of tires.

At 20 per tire the equipment pays for itself in 15 tires, which for two
cars would be about six years (at 18 months per set) if I did the math
right.

Likewise, alignment equipment is similarly priced at about three to five
hundred bucks, which at a price of alignments at about a hundred bucks out
here (on sale), would pay for itself in just a few years for a two-car
family.

Everyone "says" they can't justify the price - but the real reason we don't
do alignment is that there is a tremendous amount of thinking that has to
do on in order to convert length to angles and vice versa.

Similarly, the reason people don't do their own mounting and balancing is
not the justification of the price - but it's the hard work involved - and
also a bit of learning about technique.

> Let's call it "good value". I don't mind paying a little more at times
> but I certainly don't want to get gouged. I try to check out prices
> before buying anything. Lowest price is not always the cheapest buy.


There are no blanket absolutes, where I agree with you that most people
zoom into price and price alone as the arbiter of quality.

The main problem I see with humans is that they're basically incapable of
handling the detail that is required to get the best price-to-performance
value of complex objects.

For example, how many times have you seen someone shop for car batteries by
warrantee length, for example? That's ridiculous. Yet people do it. You
know why? They can't handle the complexity of amps and amp hours.

Likewise with tires. They buy them by treadwear warrantee claims, as if
that was in the least meaningful. You know why? Because people who can't
handle detail can still handle numbers. To them, a tire with a 45K mile
warrantee is better than a tire with a 35K mile warrantee - simply because
they can process the fact that 45K is a larger number than 35K is.

My theory is that the reason why people think that price is an indication
of quality is only because they don't know how to determine quality - but -
they can figure out price. So, to make their simple minds process the
problem set, they immediately assume a $500 tire is better than a $100
tire.

>> What's the absolute worst thing that can happen to a tire?

> Ask the guy that has a flat spare because he never check it.


I've seen people who get flats park their car on the shoulder, and call for
a ride (or call for AAA). Mostly women, where, I agree, some SUV tires are
extremely heavy, and it's not worth getting run over at night in the rain
while you're changing a spare tire.

But most of us can change our own tires.

Besides, most of us carry a 12-VDC compressor in the trunk along with the
OEM jack, triangle reflectors, chocks, spare tools, a flashlight, etc.

> You'd be right if I was driving my '62 Corvair with 13" wheels. I need
> 245/45R18 and cheap ones ar $92 and go up to $260. I drive enough to
> justify a good tire over one that just has to go 2 miles to the grocery
> store.


How do you define a "good tire"?

Your argument above seems to assume a $92 tire is worse than a $260 tire.
But your argument didn't say a single thing about what you use to determine
what a "good tire" is.

Price has absolutely no bearing on quality.
Price is only an indication of demand.

There are a *lot* of not-so-intelligent people out there who will pay
upwards of tens of thousands of dollars for a diamond-studded watch, but
that doesn't mean you get any better of a time piece than a ten-dollar
Timex.

>> However, you're NOT getting the best priceerformance deal at 600 bucks
>> for a set of four tires. That's fine, if you're flush with money, simply
>> because money isn't important to anyone who has a lot of it.

>
> Questionable. I want a good tire when I hit 100 mph so I;m willing to
> pay for it.


AFAIK, no standard passenger car tire is legal to sell in the USA that
won't go 112 mph. The "S" rating is the slowest tire that is allowed to be
sold in the USA for standard-use passenger on-road tires.

That means you won't be able to find a tire for your car that can't go 100
mph, especially at that size.

Nonetheless, how would you compare these tires at Walmart today?

$73 Milestar MS932 Sport Radial Tire, 245/45R18 100V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Milestar-...-100V/55190013

$80 245/45ZR18 100W BSW Radar Dimax R8 Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/245-45ZR1...Tires/55376322

$81 Rydanz ROADSTER R02 Tire P245/45R18 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Rydanz-RO...-100W/52292477

$105 Nexen N5000 Plus Tire 245/45R18XL 100V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Nexen-N50...-100V/39511145

$114 Antares Ingens A1 245/45R18 100W Tire
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Antares-I...Tires/49651271

$115 General GMAX AS-03 Tire 245/45ZR18XL 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/General-G...R18XL/33092363

$120 Uniroyal Tiger Paw GTZ All Season Tire 245/45ZR18 96W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Uniroyal-...6W-BW/20531817

$126 Kumho ECSTA 4XII Tire 245/45R18 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Kumho-ECS...-100W/44608099

$141 General Altimax RT43 Tire 245/45R18 100V Tire
https://www.walmart.com/ip/General-A...-100V/42955397

$151 245/45-18 HANKOOK VENTUS S1 Noble 2 H452 100W BSW Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ventus-S1...R18XL/43079164

$151 Goodyear Eagle RS-A Tire P245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Goodyear-...-45R18/5172553

$154 BF Goodrich g-Force COMP 2 A/S Tire 245/45ZR18 96W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/BF-Goodri...8-96W/44658605

$157 Cooper CS5 Ultra Touring 100V Tire 245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Cooper-CS...45R18/47406871

$157 Yokohama Advan Sport A/S 100W Tire 245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Yokohama-...45R18/47407491

$171 Continental Extreme Contact DWS06 Tire 245/45ZR18XL 100Y
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Continent...-100Y/44786691

$175 Pirelli PZero All Season Plus 245/45R18XL 100Y
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pirelli-P...-100Y/50554992

$216 Michelin Pilot MXM4 Tire P245/45R18 96V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pilot-HXMXM4/12177683

$232 Vogue Custom Built Radial VIII 245/45R18 100 V Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Vogue-Cus...Tires/50753784

HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
price alone.
  #24  
Old April 2nd 17, 03:48 AM posted to alt.home.repair,ca.driving,rec.autos.tech
Jonas Schneider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 02:24:29 +0000 (UTC), Jonas Schneider
> wrote:

>> What is pure profit? Are you talking the difference between the price
>> they pay and the price they sell the tire? That is far from pure.
>> OTOH, if you did a cost analysis of the labor and overhead of running
>> the business I may agree.

>
> Your question is a fair question, since my original assumption was that
> tires are a commodity, where it's not the general nature of a commodity to
> sell much above it's cost.
>
> Let's go back to that number to see what it was saying exactly.
> http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo...issue-2015.pdf
>
> That PDF says that there are 200 million replacement tires sold each year,
> where, on page 52 of that document, we find the exact words:
> "According to a recent Modern Tire Dealer survey of independent
> retail and wholesale tire dealers, the average profit margin
> on a passenger tire is 26.4%. For a light truck tire it falls to 24%.
> The average wholesale passenger tire sales margin is 12.4%."


Here are the definitions:
Sales Margin: http://smallbusiness.chron.com/sales-margin-18383.html
Profit Margin: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/profitmargin.asp
  #25  
Old April 2nd 17, 03:48 AM posted to alt.home.repair,ca.driving,rec.autos.tech
Ed Pawlowski
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/1/2017 10:24 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:58:20 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>>> On a typical ultra high performance tire which is, say, $75, that means
>>> that 1/3 the cost is pure profit online.
>>>

>>
>> What is pure profit? Are you talking the difference between the price
>> they pay and the price they sell the tire? That is far from pure.
>> OTOH, if you did a cost analysis of the labor and overhead of running
>> the business I may agree.

>
> Your question is a fair question, since my original assumption was that
> tires are a commodity, where it's not the general nature of a commodity to
> sell much above it's cost.
>
> Let's go back to that number to see what it was saying exactly.
> http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo...issue-2015.pdf
>
> That PDF says that there are 200 million replacement tires sold each year,
> where, on page 52 of that document, we find the exact words:
> "According to a recent Modern Tire Dealer survey of independent
> retail and wholesale tire dealers, the average profit margin
> on a passenger tire is 26.4%. For a light truck tire it falls to 24%.
> The average wholesale passenger tire sales margin is 12.4%."
>


That is a pretty small margin, Far from pure profit. You have to take
out rent, labor, utilities, insurance, supplies for office, shipping,
maintenance,taxes.
  #26  
Old April 2nd 17, 05:17 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
rbowman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 138
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 04/01/2017 08:24 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
> price alone.


So enlighten us.
  #27  
Old April 2nd 17, 01:37 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
burfordTjustice[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - SPAM

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:34:36 +0000 (UTC)
Jonas Schneider > wrote:

> rom: Jonas Schneider >
> Subject: I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how
> can they do it?) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:34:36 +0000 (UTC)
> User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.20.32.1218
> Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
> Organization: albasani.net
>
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:39:33 -0400, burfordTjustice
> > wrote:
>
> >> but we already
> >> know TireRack has huge volume.

> >
> >
> > what is your evidence?

>
> That's a good question.
> I'm not sure *why* you ask, since it's a decent assumption.
> But if your point is that I have no idea what their volume is, you are
> completely correct.
>
> I simply *assumed* that all the big online tire retailers have 'huge'
> volume.



So you have no clue what you are talking about.

Who coulda guessed.
  #28  
Old April 2nd 17, 02:41 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
Ed Pawlowski
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/1/2017 10:24 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:50:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>>> I have nothing against good service, but since I mount and balance my own
>>> tires, I can't think of why I would need that good service?

>>
>> Very few of us mount our own tires. I can't justify the investment when
>> I buy a set of tires every18 months at best.

>
> I think most of us don't do "hard" things, where we define "hard" any way
> we want.
>
> For example, probably none of us roof our own homes.
> Probably none of us pump our own septic systems.
> Many of us don't even maintain our own pool chemistry.
>
> In the realm of automobile maintenance, most of us don't replace clutches,
> nor do most of us blueprint an engine. Probably we do basic repairs, but I
> agree with you that most people consider both mounting tires and aligning
> the steering and suspension to be jobs we routinely farm out.


There was a time I did all of that stuff. As I got older, I found it
easier to write checks than drop a tranny. I still put in the
windshield washer fluid though.




>
> Having said that we farm out the "hard" jobs, you'll note that I think your
> statement is completely incorrect that we can't "justify the investment".
>
> Mounting and balancing tools are about three hundred bucks, where it's
> trivial to justify that investment based on your cycle of 18 months per
> vehicle for a set of tires.
>
> At 20 per tire the equipment pays for itself in 15 tires, which for two
> cars would be about six years (at 18 months per set) if I did the math
> right.


On a monetary basis, yes. On a practical basis, no. I'm not willing to
invest a lot of time and space to save $20 when I can earn that in less
time than it takes to mount the tire.


>
> Similarly, the reason people don't do their own mounting and balancing is
> not the justification of the price - but it's the hard work involved - and
> also a bit of learning about technique.


Work is a factor. Some people actually enjoy the sense of
accomplishment more than the money saved. Or perhaps you can do a
little part time brain surgery and earn enough in an hour to pay for a
full set of tires, including mount and balance.



> My theory is that the reason why people think that price is an indication
> of quality is only because they don't know how to determine quality - but -
> they can figure out price. So, to make their simple minds process the
> problem set, they immediately assume a $500 tire is better than a $100
> tire.


Given the price difference it may be better, but not 5X better. I find
that as price goes up, value goes down. Applies to most everything we
buy. Double the price and get 50% better, tops. Is it better to have a
fully loaded Chevy or a stripped down Buick at the same price?


>
> But most of us can change our own tires.
>
> Besides, most of us carry a 12-VDC compressor in the trunk along with the
> OEM jack, triangle reflectors, chocks, spare tools, a flashlight, etc.


My car came with 5 ears of roadside assistance. Last time a tire had to
be changed I sat in the car at night in the rain for 20 minutes for the
guy to show up. Nice feature. I don't recall the last time I used a
lug wrench, but is is over 25 years.


> Your argument above seems to assume a $92 tire is worse than a $260 tire.
> But your argument didn't say a single thing about what you use to determine
> what a "good tire" is.


You have quite a list of tires. Some do not give a traction rating
though. Of course, I'd want A or AA. What the specs don't show is how
well constructed the tire is, how well it rides, how quiet it is. Name
brand means little too. There are plenty of lesser known companies that
make excellent products.

I a curious as to which one you would buy and why.

> Nonetheless, how would you compare these tires at Walmart today?
>


>
> HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
> price alone.
>


You have my attention
  #29  
Old April 2nd 17, 06:08 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
Jonas Schneider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 22:17:13 -0600, rbowman > wrote:

>> HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
>> price alone.

>
> So enlighten us.


As I explained to Ed Pawlowski, my process may differ from yours or his,
so, I only present my process as a logical process based on an
understanding of the specs and the various tradeoffs, where you can't go
wrong in my process because you throw out all tires that don't meet OEM
specs (if you believe in the OEM specs, which I do for my tires).

Once you've whittled down the selection to tires that all meet or exceed
the OEM specs, then you rank them in the order of trusted specification
that you care about most.

If you care most about "road noise", then you're a gonner because you're
not going to get that as a reliable spec, even if you read all the
boy-racer reviews on the planet.

Likewise, if you care about marketing appeal (e.g., whatever marketing
claims you'll get, whether that be blonds smiling at you while you drive by
or the safety of not running over the neighbor's kids), you're not gonna be
able to reliably rank the tires.

However, if you care about, say, wet traction, well then, you're in luck.
The specs on the side of the tire tell you the wet straight-line traction
coefficient on both asphalt and concrete.

Also the treadwear gives you the average dry traction coefficient in the
ratio of 2.25 divided by the treadwear raised to the 0.15 power.

So that gives you three separate traction coefficients to rank the tiers by
first.

Let's say you second-most care about safety, given that all tires sold in
the USA are safe. Some are better built than others, where there are a
bunch of ratings which give you construction information.

There's the speed rating from the manufacturer (e.g., W versus V), which is
really a heat-generation-and-dissipating rating, and there's the
temperature rating (e.g., A vs B) which is similar but measured by the
government. There's also the load range (e.g., 99 versus 95), and the ply
rating (e.g., XL).

And then there's the price which can offset any of those based on your
current feeling about dollars.

If money is no object, then you can get the AA A A 100 XL 105W tires, but
if money is critical to you, then you still can't go wrong with AA A A 500
99V rated tires.

Once you list the tires by spec that you care about, there is almost never
a dead-heat tied, but if there were a tie, I'd use the "soft stuff" as the
tie breaker, e.g., white sidewalls, or treadwear warranty, or the smile of
the salesman or the taste of their free coffee.

It's the same method as you choose brake pads by the way, or motor oil, or
differential lube, or any commodity that has technical merit.

  #30  
Old April 2nd 17, 06:08 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
Jonas Schneider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 09:41:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> There was a time I did all of that stuff. As I got older, I found it
> easier to write checks than drop a tranny. I still put in the
> windshield washer fluid though.


Like you, I used to do more stuff myself.
Now I do "deferred maintenance".


> On a monetary basis, yes. On a practical basis, no. I'm not willing to
> invest a lot of time and space to save $20 when I can earn that in less
> time than it takes to mount the tire.


What you just said is the real reason most people don't mount their own
tires and align their suspension. Over a decade, it would cost only $800
for two cars' mounting, and $1000 for alignments.

You can make more than that by not taking the appreciable time that it
would take to just LEARN how to do mounting and alignments.

My only beef with that sentiment is that people don't tell the truth to
themselves when they say that the reason they don't do it is the cost of
the tools.

The reason is, as you said, that they have better things to do.
And that's ok.

> Work is a factor. Some people actually enjoy the sense of
> accomplishment more than the money saved.


This is true. It's why people do crossword puzzles.
For me, I get a sense of empowerment.

I enjoy the freedom and convenience of fixing a flat, for example, at home.
So, if the tire is low, I limp home and fix it.
And when I put it back on, I feel safe and satisfied.

> Or perhaps you can do a
> little part time brain surgery and earn enough in an hour to pay for a
> full set of tires, including mount and balance.


Absolutely.
This is the real reason most people don't align and mount.
It's because they have better things to do.
All I'm asking is for people to be truthful to themselves.

> Given the price difference it may be better, but not 5X better.


We're both old men so I don't have to explain that price is an indication
of demand only whereas quality may or may not correspond to demand.

Certainly higher-quality food, for example, would be in demand, but, it's
well known in the grocery business that when fruits and vegetables are
plentiful, the price goes down and the quality goes up.

When it's off season, or if there was a drought, the price goes up and the
quality goes down.

My main argument is that anyone who says "you get what you pay for", hasn't
thought the problem set through.

You actually get what you get, and you pay what *others* are willing to pay
(since the masses set the price ... you don't set the price).

My hypothesis is that those who use price as a major indicator of quality
are generally those who don't understand that which they are buying.

They use a number as an indicator of quality only because two numbers are
easy for them to measure against (whereas cold cranking amps and amp hours
are harder for them to compare for two reasons).
1. Technical specs need to be understood, in and of themselves
2. Technical specs often need to be balanced against one another

I may be wrong - but that's my theory.

> I find
> that as price goes up, value goes down.


I can't disagree.
Look at how much off-season fruits and vegetables cost.

If we somewhat equate "value" to "quality", we can note that the quality of
fruit goes down in the off season, and yet the price goes up.

The quality goes down as the price goes up simply due to supply and demand,
where individuals don't get to determine either the supply nor the demand.

As an individual, you either pay that price - or you don't pay that price.

If there are enough people who pay that price, the price stays high.

If there aren't enough people to pay that price, the supply either
disappears, or the price goes down.

So, the price isn't any indicator of quality nor value.
It's merely an indicator of aggregate demand.

> Applies to most everything we
> buy. Double the price and get 50% better, tops. Is it better to have a
> fully loaded Chevy or a stripped down Buick at the same price?


You have a good point which is that for every dollar increase in price, you
often get exponentially less increase in value.

So, for example, a one hundred dollar car has a certain priceerformance
ratio, but a two hundred thousand dollar car probably doesn't have a 2:1
priceerformance ratio. It's probably far less than 2:1.

> My car came with 5 ears of roadside assistance. Last time a tire had to
> be changed I sat in the car at night in the rain for 20 minutes for the
> guy to show up. Nice feature. I don't recall the last time I used a
> lug wrench, but is is over 25 years.


Is it just me, or do we get fewer flats nowadays?
I remember, as a kid, that I got flats in my bias-ply tires rather
frequently. Now I only get about one or two flats a year.

I find that where I drive has a lot to do with flats.
Where I live there is a bunch of new construction, and lots of remodeling
and landscaping.

Personally, I think nuts and bolts fall off the truck, but I can't prove
that.

My wife has AAA which I'm ok with since it makes her feel good.
Truth be known, she calls me and I take care of the problem.

But she feels safer knowing they'll tow her or give her gas or jump her car
or fix a flat, or jimmy her locks, or whatever it is that they do.

I even once called them because I parked on a hill in what turned out to be
mud and my RWD sedan couldn't back out and I couldn't go forward as the
nose was buried into the hillside.

So I called her AAA, and they took it even though I'm not female. I don't
think the driver of the tow truck cares, as long as he gets paid. He pulled
me out of that mud (sideways!) and I drove off intact.

So AAA has its merits.

> You have quite a list of tires. Some do not give a traction rating
> though. Of course, I'd want A or AA.


Now we get to the point of deciding how to buy a tire!
What matters is what matters to you.

But we can assume, as you did, that wet straightline traction is critical.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret....jsp?techid=48

For the size you mentioned, you'd probably never want to ever go below A,
and you'd almost certainly want AA.
A = above 0.47g on wet asphalt, above 0.35g on concrete
AA = above 0.54g on wet asphalt, above 0.38g on concrete

The treadwear rating also gives you an average dry friction coefficient
using the formula that the average dry friction coefficient is 2.25 divided
by the treadwear rating raised to the 0.15 power.

> What the specs don't show is how
> well constructed the tire is, how well it rides, how quiet it is.


Actually, the specs do tell you how well constructed the tire is.

The load range tells you very much how well constructed the tire is.
The speed rating tells you that also.
Also the XL designation (aka the ply rating) tells you that.
As does the temperature rating.

> Name
> brand means little too. There are plenty of lesser known companies that
> make excellent products.


While Goodyear & Michelin marketing people must hate intelligent thinkers
like you and me, I have to agree with you that brand name, for tires, is
meaningless.

Just as there are no bad brake pads sold in the US, there are no bad tires
sold in the USA.

The specs that must be printed on friction materials tells you what you
need to know, and the specs that must be embossed into the tire sidewall
tell you what you need to know.

There are just various levels of good.

> I am curious as to which one you would buy and why.


My selection process is as easy as simple math, but my purely logical
selection process requires technical knowledge sufficient to understand the
specs printed on the sidewall of every tire.

I didn't look at the sidewall specs of all those tires, but my process
would be the same with choosing your tire as with choosing mine.

A. There are no absolutes when tradeoffs are involved, but generally:
1. I would compare everything against the OEM tire spec!
2. That is, any tire that meets OEM specs goes on the short list.
3. And any tire that fails any of the OEM specs, is tossed out.

B. Then I would rate highest what I care about most.
1. If that is wet traction, then I'd put the AA tires on top.
2. But if that was treadwear, I'd put the 500s above the 100s.
3. If it was price, then the cheapest OEM-spec tire would be on top.

One by one, I'd rank the tires in the order of the specs I care about.
Assuming it was wettraction/treadwear/price, then I would rank like this:

a. AA 500 $150
b. AA 400 $100
c. A 500 $75

There is rarely an exact tie, but if there were an exact tie, then I'd make
the decision based on other factors, such as warranty or the smile on the
salesman's face, or whatever the "soft" tie-breaker criteria may be.

The problem where most people give up is how to rank those three criteria
above on "value".

As you noted, making the value tradeoffs are the bitch here.

For example, I can see myself choosing *any* of those sample tires, based
on those value tradeoffs.
a. AA 500 $150 has the best wet traction & the best treadwear
b. AA 400 $100 has the best wet traction & is a lot cheaper
c. A 500 $75 is a lot cheaper and has good wet traction & treadwear

>> Nonetheless, how would you compare these tires at Walmart today?
>> HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
>> price alone.

> You have my attention


If this was my wife's car, I'd probably choose "a" but if it was mine, I'd
probably choose "c"; but my point is that you only look at tires that meet
or exceed OEM specs, and then you list the tires by teh specs YOU care
about most.

Then you make tradeoffs based on the specs.

The point is that you don't make those tradeoffs based on brand, sidewall
color, tread pattern, boy-racer reviews, dealer recommendations, etc.,
since most people are looking for someone else to tell them how to buy
tires, where, my premise is that the sidewall tells you everything you need
to know.



 




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