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Oil question What the manual says, vs. what Dad says.



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 16th 04, 05:44 PM
Jonnie Santos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

....so this is not a typical relocation kid, rather a second filter, right?
How do you get pressure to the secondary filter?, a pump or some type of
splitter off of the oem filter? (just curious) Cool pic - like the gauge
too.

I was reading with some relocation kits it was critical to get the right
filter that either had the valve built in or not depending on the automaker,
and the concern was it would take a while to get oil flow on start-up.



"Mark" > wrote in message
m...
> Tedrick,
>
> Matt,
>
> You can stop this oil burning permanently. Here's the story. I
> bought a Saturn '95 SL2 a couple of years ago and the engine was
> burning oil quite miserably- at least a quart every 500 miles. I lost
> track of the oil level and the engine gave up the ghost while on I75.
> So after I had a second engine put in the car I searched for best ways
> to treat the Saturn. I found out about bypass filters, these
> secondary filters that are so thick that they remove particles much
> smaller and more effectively than the OEM filter can. The government
> did and is doing tests on these filters and find them excellent. I
> decided to install the Frantz filter made by www.wefilterit.com. Not
> only does the filter eliminate engine wear providing 2-3x longer
> engine life (proven by the SAE), it also helps the moving engine
> components to seat properly and thus will lower oil consumption. In
> fact my engine now has eliminated the oil burning completely! You may
> not believe me but the only remedy is to prove to yourself by doing a
> little research on the internet. And if you are so inclined it takes
> about a couple days of planning and 2-3 days of work. The effort is
> worth it because in the end you get a cleaner/ quieter running engine
> and the peace of mind when it stops burning oil.
>
> Here are some pictures of my installation:
> http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...;f=36;t=000144
>
> Check this out:
> http://www.uscg.mil/SYSTEMS/GSE/P2OA.2-1-1.htm



Ads
  #12  
Old October 17th 04, 01:28 AM
Dan Duncan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mark > wrote:
> You can stop this oil burning permanently. Here's the story. I
> bought a Saturn '95 SL2 a couple of years ago and the engine was
> burning oil quite miserably- at least a quart every 500 miles. I lost
> track of the oil level and the engine gave up the ghost while on I75.


Ok, so the above engine is irrelevant because you never tried
this technique on it.

> So after I had a second engine put in the car I searched for best ways
> to treat the Saturn. I found out about bypass filters, these
> secondary filters that are so thick that they remove particles much
> smaller and more effectively than the OEM filter can. The government
> did and is doing tests on these filters and find them excellent. I
> decided to install the Frantz filter made by www.wefilterit.com. Not
> only does the filter eliminate engine wear providing 2-3x longer
> engine life (proven by the SAE), it also helps the moving engine
> components to seat properly and thus will lower oil consumption. In
> fact my engine now has eliminated the oil burning completely!


Did the new engine burn any oil before you put this kit on it?

> You may
> not believe me but the only remedy is to prove to yourself by doing a
> little research on the internet. And if you are so inclined it takes
> about a couple days of planning and 2-3 days of work. The effort is
> worth it because in the end you get a cleaner/ quieter running engine
> and the peace of mind when it stops burning oil.


Where's the evidence this will make an engine STOP burning oil? The
evidence claims it may keep a good engine from developing an oil
burning problem.

-DanD

--
# Dan Duncan (kd4igw) http://pcisys.net/~dand
# We have enough youth, how about a fountain of SMART?
  #13  
Old October 17th 04, 03:46 AM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Jonnie Santos" > wrote in message news:<Adccd.59429$Lo6.45765@fed1read03>...
> ...so this is not a typical relocation kid, rather a second filter, right?
> How do you get pressure to the secondary filter?, a pump or some type of
> splitter off of the oem filter? (just curious) Cool pic - like the gauge
> too.
>


No problem, curiosity is good. It is a second filter that operates in
bypass of the original filter that is on the vehicle. The flow
through this filter is tiny - only 8-10cc (1 inch squared) per second
and thus the pressure can come from the main oil pump. It allows the
primary filter to do it's job of providing lubricant free from large
particles to the engine internals but squeezes out particles 1-2
micrometers in size 100%. The regular filters are made of pleated
paper and only filter down to 30 micrometers. To feed oil pressure to
the filter, you must use either a sandwich adapter or a tee. The
sandwich adapter acts as a sandwich between the engine block and the
OEM spin-on filter. The tee must be installed in place of the oil
pressure sender. You do not replace the oil pressure sender, just
relocate it (what the tee is for). FYI, the OPS turns on the light
that warns when oil pressure is low. You can get all the necessary
plumbing and hoses from hardware stores and automotive parts stores.
Use RTV for the thread sealant - I've found that it makes perfect
seals that are resistant to vibration. You also need to find a place
to mount the big filter. On large trucks it is a piece of cake but
with smaller cars you have to be more creative. With my Saturn, I
bought a battery relocation kit and relocated it to the trunk.


SAE had determined that the particles that cause the most wear in
engines come in sizes from 20 to 5 micrometers. They say that 70% of
engine wear comes from contaminated oil thus if you were to put on a
bypass filter that gets the crud out of the oil you will get almost
70% more engine life. And when the oil picks up the dirt deposits
(like sludge) in the engine the BP filter removes this dirt thus your
engine internals get cleaned up pretty good. Engine noise decreases
and you get better performance.

> I was reading with some relocation kits it was critical to get the right
> filter that either had the valve built in or not depending on the automaker,
> and the concern was it would take a while to get oil flow on start-up.


With either the Frantz, Motorguard, or Gulf Coast filters, the
diverting of some oil flow is so minimal that it does not effect the
main filter or the amount of flow to the engine. In fact there is a
check valve in the oil pump that allows more flow when the engine
needs it. Unless you drag race your car the oil pump will not come
close to its maximum flow output.
When the BP filter is saturated with oil, you can basically neglect
its effect during startup. There is one exception however, when you
change the BP filter, the new filter isn't saturated with oil. The
oil flow through the inlet hose to the BP filter is higher when there
is air in the system because the air moves quickly through the filter.
But the BP filter is saturated in a couple seconds and then the oil
flows at the normal 8-10cc rate. For this reason I screwed on a
shutoff valve to it and only partially open this valve when a new BP
filter is installed. I then open the valve completely after a minute
of engine running. This is when I know the BP filter is saturated
with oil. A ball valve can be bought at a hardware store for a couple
of bucks.

In any case, it is a good idea for your OEM spin-on filter to have
what is called an anti-drainback valve. This valve closes when the
engine is turned off and keeps the oil that is coating the engine from
draining into the oil pan. It helps to reduce startup wear because
more oil is coating the inside of your engine when you turn the key.
A bypass filter will clean out your oil thus you won't have to change
either the OEM oil filter or the oil as often.
  #14  
Old October 17th 04, 07:37 AM
Jonnie Santos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Did the cables for the remote battery
go through the cabin or under the car? Hope you get a bazillion miles out
of your Saturn! (smile)

"Mark" > wrote in message
om...
> "Jonnie Santos" > wrote in message
> news:<Adccd.59429$Lo6.45765@fed1read03>...
>> ...so this is not a typical relocation kid, rather a second filter,
>> right?
>> How do you get pressure to the secondary filter?, a pump or some type of
>> splitter off of the oem filter? (just curious) Cool pic - like the
>> gauge
>> too.
>>

>
> No problem, curiosity is good. It is a second filter that operates in
> bypass of the original filter that is on the vehicle. The flow
> through this filter is tiny - only 8-10cc (1 inch squared) per second
> and thus the pressure can come from the main oil pump. It allows the
> primary filter to do it's job of providing lubricant free from large
> particles to the engine internals but squeezes out particles 1-2
> micrometers in size 100%. The regular filters are made of pleated
> paper and only filter down to 30 micrometers. To feed oil pressure to
> the filter, you must use either a sandwich adapter or a tee. The
> sandwich adapter acts as a sandwich between the engine block and the
> OEM spin-on filter. The tee must be installed in place of the oil
> pressure sender. You do not replace the oil pressure sender, just
> relocate it (what the tee is for). FYI, the OPS turns on the light
> that warns when oil pressure is low. You can get all the necessary
> plumbing and hoses from hardware stores and automotive parts stores.
> Use RTV for the thread sealant - I've found that it makes perfect
> seals that are resistant to vibration. You also need to find a place
> to mount the big filter. On large trucks it is a piece of cake but
> with smaller cars you have to be more creative. With my Saturn, I
> bought a battery relocation kit and relocated it to the trunk.
>
>
> SAE had determined that the particles that cause the most wear in
> engines come in sizes from 20 to 5 micrometers. They say that 70% of
> engine wear comes from contaminated oil thus if you were to put on a
> bypass filter that gets the crud out of the oil you will get almost
> 70% more engine life. And when the oil picks up the dirt deposits
> (like sludge) in the engine the BP filter removes this dirt thus your
> engine internals get cleaned up pretty good. Engine noise decreases
> and you get better performance.
>
>> I was reading with some relocation kits it was critical to get the right
>> filter that either had the valve built in or not depending on the
>> automaker,
>> and the concern was it would take a while to get oil flow on start-up.

>
> With either the Frantz, Motorguard, or Gulf Coast filters, the
> diverting of some oil flow is so minimal that it does not effect the
> main filter or the amount of flow to the engine. In fact there is a
> check valve in the oil pump that allows more flow when the engine
> needs it. Unless you drag race your car the oil pump will not come
> close to its maximum flow output.
> When the BP filter is saturated with oil, you can basically neglect
> its effect during startup. There is one exception however, when you
> change the BP filter, the new filter isn't saturated with oil. The
> oil flow through the inlet hose to the BP filter is higher when there
> is air in the system because the air moves quickly through the filter.
> But the BP filter is saturated in a couple seconds and then the oil
> flows at the normal 8-10cc rate. For this reason I screwed on a
> shutoff valve to it and only partially open this valve when a new BP
> filter is installed. I then open the valve completely after a minute
> of engine running. This is when I know the BP filter is saturated
> with oil. A ball valve can be bought at a hardware store for a couple
> of bucks.
>
> In any case, it is a good idea for your OEM spin-on filter to have
> what is called an anti-drainback valve. This valve closes when the
> engine is turned off and keeps the oil that is coating the engine from
> draining into the oil pan. It helps to reduce startup wear because
> more oil is coating the inside of your engine when you turn the key.
> A bypass filter will clean out your oil thus you won't have to change
> either the OEM oil filter or the oil as often.



  #15  
Old October 18th 04, 02:53 AM
Kirk Kohnen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If I want to do that with my ION, will I have to relocate the battery to the
trunk?

"Jonnie Santos" > wrote in message
news:Nqocd.69282$Lo6.15671@fed1read03...
> Thanks for the detailed explanation. Did the cables for the remote
> battery go through the cabin or under the car? Hope you get a bazillion
> miles out of your Saturn! (smile)
>
> "Mark" > wrote in message
> om...
>> "Jonnie Santos" > wrote in message
>> news:<Adccd.59429$Lo6.45765@fed1read03>...
>>> ...so this is not a typical relocation kid, rather a second filter,
>>> right?
>>> How do you get pressure to the secondary filter?, a pump or some type of
>>> splitter off of the oem filter? (just curious) Cool pic - like the
>>> gauge
>>> too.
>>>

>>
>> No problem, curiosity is good. It is a second filter that operates in
>> bypass of the original filter that is on the vehicle. The flow
>> through this filter is tiny - only 8-10cc (1 inch squared) per second
>> and thus the pressure can come from the main oil pump. It allows the
>> primary filter to do it's job of providing lubricant free from large
>> particles to the engine internals but squeezes out particles 1-2
>> micrometers in size 100%. The regular filters are made of pleated
>> paper and only filter down to 30 micrometers. To feed oil pressure to
>> the filter, you must use either a sandwich adapter or a tee. The
>> sandwich adapter acts as a sandwich between the engine block and the
>> OEM spin-on filter. The tee must be installed in place of the oil
>> pressure sender. You do not replace the oil pressure sender, just
>> relocate it (what the tee is for). FYI, the OPS turns on the light
>> that warns when oil pressure is low. You can get all the necessary
>> plumbing and hoses from hardware stores and automotive parts stores.
>> Use RTV for the thread sealant - I've found that it makes perfect
>> seals that are resistant to vibration. You also need to find a place
>> to mount the big filter. On large trucks it is a piece of cake but
>> with smaller cars you have to be more creative. With my Saturn, I
>> bought a battery relocation kit and relocated it to the trunk.
>>
>>
>> SAE had determined that the particles that cause the most wear in
>> engines come in sizes from 20 to 5 micrometers. They say that 70% of
>> engine wear comes from contaminated oil thus if you were to put on a
>> bypass filter that gets the crud out of the oil you will get almost
>> 70% more engine life. And when the oil picks up the dirt deposits
>> (like sludge) in the engine the BP filter removes this dirt thus your
>> engine internals get cleaned up pretty good. Engine noise decreases
>> and you get better performance.
>>
>>> I was reading with some relocation kits it was critical to get the right
>>> filter that either had the valve built in or not depending on the
>>> automaker,
>>> and the concern was it would take a while to get oil flow on start-up.

>>
>> With either the Frantz, Motorguard, or Gulf Coast filters, the
>> diverting of some oil flow is so minimal that it does not effect the
>> main filter or the amount of flow to the engine. In fact there is a
>> check valve in the oil pump that allows more flow when the engine
>> needs it. Unless you drag race your car the oil pump will not come
>> close to its maximum flow output.
>> When the BP filter is saturated with oil, you can basically neglect
>> its effect during startup. There is one exception however, when you
>> change the BP filter, the new filter isn't saturated with oil. The
>> oil flow through the inlet hose to the BP filter is higher when there
>> is air in the system because the air moves quickly through the filter.
>> But the BP filter is saturated in a couple seconds and then the oil
>> flows at the normal 8-10cc rate. For this reason I screwed on a
>> shutoff valve to it and only partially open this valve when a new BP
>> filter is installed. I then open the valve completely after a minute
>> of engine running. This is when I know the BP filter is saturated
>> with oil. A ball valve can be bought at a hardware store for a couple
>> of bucks.
>>
>> In any case, it is a good idea for your OEM spin-on filter to have
>> what is called an anti-drainback valve. This valve closes when the
>> engine is turned off and keeps the oil that is coating the engine from
>> draining into the oil pan. It helps to reduce startup wear because
>> more oil is coating the inside of your engine when you turn the key.
>> A bypass filter will clean out your oil thus you won't have to change
>> either the OEM oil filter or the oil as often.

>
>



  #16  
Old October 18th 04, 03:23 AM
BANDIT2941
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>Matt,
>
> You can stop this oil burning permanently. Here's the story. I
>bought a Saturn '95 SL2 a couple of years ago and the engine was
>burning oil quite miserably- at least a quart every 500 miles. I lost
>track of the oil level and the engine gave up the ghost while on I75.
>snip...


Sorry, but if an engine is burning oil, putting a bypass oil filter on it isn't
going to help. In SOME cases, it MAY help prevent oil burning from
happening(like if you are one who never changes the oil) but if you keep up
with your oil changes you are no more likely to have an oil burning problem
then if you have a secondary filter. In the majority of oil burning cases with
Saturns, it is due to the Saturn factory using Hastings piston rings. Replace
those rings with a different brand and your oil burning will be eliminated. For
instance, I have Sealed Power rings in my engine now.

>In any case, it is a good idea for your OEM spin-on filter to have
>what is called an anti-drainback valve. This valve closes when the
>engine is turned off and keeps the oil that is coating the engine from
>draining into the oil pan. It helps to reduce startup wear because
>more oil is coating the inside of your engine when you turn the key.


An anti drainback valve in an oil filter doesn't keep oil that is coating
engine components on those engine components. Thats impossible. The valve keeps
the oil filter full of oil; so on startup there is less of a lapse of oil
pressure.

  #17  
Old October 18th 04, 05:59 AM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dan Duncan > wrote in message >...
> Mark > wrote:
> > You can stop this oil burning permanently. Here's the story. I
> > bought a Saturn '95 SL2 a couple of years ago and the engine was
> > burning oil quite miserably- at least a quart every 500 miles. I lost
> > track of the oil level and the engine gave up the ghost while on I75.

>
> Ok, so the above engine is irrelevant because you never tried
> this technique on it.
>
> > So after I had a second engine put in the car I searched for best ways
> > to treat the Saturn. I found out about bypass filters, these
> > secondary filters that are so thick that they remove particles much
> > smaller and more effectively than the OEM filter can. The government
> > did and is doing tests on these filters and find them excellent. I
> > decided to install the Frantz filter made by www.wefilterit.com. Not
> > only does the filter eliminate engine wear providing 2-3x longer
> > engine life (proven by the SAE), it also helps the moving engine
> > components to seat properly and thus will lower oil consumption. In
> > fact my engine now has eliminated the oil burning completely!

>
> Did the new engine burn any oil before you put this kit on it?


The second engine had 40k miles when it was put in and yes it burned a
quart every 2-3k miles. AFAIK, all older unmodified Saturns with the
1.9L burn oil.


>
> > You may
> > not believe me but the only remedy is to prove to yourself by doing a
> > little research on the internet. And if you are so inclined it takes
> > about a couple days of planning and 2-3 days of work. The effort is
> > worth it because in the end you get a cleaner/ quieter running engine
> > and the peace of mind when it stops burning oil.

>
> Where's the evidence this will make an engine STOP burning oil? The
> evidence claims it may keep a good engine from developing an oil
> burning problem.
>
> -DanD

I have no evidence that it will STOP burning oil, only that it will
help greatly reduce the oil burning. I had noticed that the oil
burning tends to get worse when the oil is dirtier. This makes sense
to me because the carbon, or soot, deposited in the oil tends to
absorb heat. When this happens the oil gets hotter and is more prone
to flashing near the piston rings. Several mechanics (I don't know
their names) that have posted on the internet say that a few of the
major problems with the 1.9L are the piston rings tend to get stuck
and also a few problems with valve seals, and sludge around the timing
belt.


When I read quite a few of the reports from various newsgroups from
people who HAD tried the Frantz filter and also read a few of the
gov's research articles I decided that the potential benefits
outweighed the risk.
  #18  
Old October 18th 04, 01:47 PM
Ron Herfurth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"BANDIT2941" > wrote in message
...
> >Matt,
> >
> > You can stop this oil burning permanently. Here's the story. I
> >bought a Saturn '95 SL2 a couple of years ago and the engine was
> >burning oil quite miserably- at least a quart every 500 miles. I lost
> >track of the oil level and the engine gave up the ghost while on I75.
> >snip...

>
> Sorry, but if an engine is burning oil, putting a bypass oil filter on it

isn't
> going to help. In SOME cases, it MAY help prevent oil burning from
> happening(like if you are one who never changes the oil) but if you keep

up
> with your oil changes you are no more likely to have an oil burning

problem
> then if you have a secondary filter. In the majority of oil burning cases

with
> Saturns, it is due to the Saturn factory using Hastings piston rings.

Replace
> those rings with a different brand and your oil burning will be

eliminated. For
> instance, I have Sealed Power rings in my engine now.


How much does that cost? I wouldn't think it would be cost effective once
you pass 100,000 miles (?)
ron


  #19  
Old October 18th 04, 06:06 PM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> Sorry, but if an engine is burning oil, putting a bypass oil filter on it isn't
> going to help. In SOME cases, it MAY help prevent oil burning from
> happening(like if you are one who never changes the oil) but if you keep up
> with your oil changes you are no more likely to have an oil burning problem
> then if you have a secondary filter.


Would you think that 2k oil change intervals would be enough? This is
the interval that I performed on my second engine with good ol' Castol
GTX and it would still burn a quart every 2-3k miles.

> In the majority of oil burning cases with
> Saturns, it is due to the Saturn factory using Hastings piston rings. Replace
> those rings with a different brand and your oil burning will be eliminated. For
> instance, I have Sealed Power rings in my engine now.
>


OK, that's another way to fix the problem, I'm sure. Have you ever
installed a bypass filter before on your own car? I didn't think so.
Here's an article of interest:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...c;f=4;t=000387
.. This states that the main causes of engine oil consumption are
dirty oil, worn engine components and leaks. This suggests that if
your engine isn't worn out, you can install a bypass filter and it
will get rid of the dirty oil problem, thus you won't have sticking
piston rings, metal shavings/soot inbetween the valve and valve seals,
etc. Engine oil in the Saturn turns black in a very short amount of
time. The nature of the piston ring is that it expands against the
cylinder for seal between the combustion chamber and the crankcase.
With a *HOT* efficient engine like the Saturn's, normal dyno engine
oil has too low a flashpoint to survive this heat thus it flashes off
and carbon crap sticks to the piston rings. I don't have any
experience nor the necessary tools to take apart an engine myself. Of
course you can have someone fix or replace your engine for several
hundred dollars. Anyone who can't fix an engine themselves can still
install a bypass filter in a couple of days and see good results
without too much money (couple hundred bucks). The benefits that you
get from the BP filter are cost savings on new oil, filter elements,
and engine repairs.
  #20  
Old October 18th 04, 06:45 PM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Kirk Kohnen" > wrote in message >...
> If I want to do that with my ION, will I have to relocate the battery to the
> trunk?
>


Possibly. One of the guys from the www.bobistheoilfilter.com
newsgroup removed the bumper off his truck and installed one in the
front of the car. He said it only took 15 minutes to remove and he
had enough room for BP filters for the engine and transmission. You
might feel safer to put a bypass filter on the battery mount. You can
buy relocation kits from Ebay and they are cheaper. Most of those
have a 20' positive battery cable and a 3' ground cable. I would buy
an additional cable for the ground. That way installation is alot
easier and you can attach the negative cable to the fuse box (where
the battery cable is attached). My brother-in-law, who is a certified
Saturn mechanic & put in the second engine, said not to use the
shorter ground because the chassis electrical connection from the
trunk isn't as clean. Not sure if this is true or not but with 2 20'
cables you can easily remove the setup in a couple of minutes. Also
get at least 4 gauge, 2 gauge is preferrable but anything larger may
make it harder when drilling the two holes in the side of the trunk
(see below)

The battery relocation was fun. It took a good part of a Saturday
afternoon during college summer break. You need a large drill bit or
dremel bit > 1" because the battery cables are pretty thick. Find the
place where the trunk sheet metal meets the outside and drill there.
Use rubber grommets for the holes where the cables are routed through
the trunk - they should be large enough to fit over the battery
terminals and the plastic insulation stuff I mention below. The sheet
metal in the side of the trunk a foot away from the gas cap is only
1/8" thick on the Saturn. This is the one metal corner that might cut
into the cable (and short positive to negative). You don't want this
(lots of sparks!!) so you want the rubber grommets. Be careful with
these holes; measure the outside diameter of the middle of the rubber
grommet and match the hole diameter as close as possible. If you have
a drill bit large enough this is the best solution. Put the rubber
grommet on the cable before you pull the cable through the hole. You
need to be careful to strap the cables away from suspension parts. I
used lots of twist ties and attached a few clamps to the frame under
the doors. I also used that plastic battery cable wrap stuff that I
got from Meijers - forget what it is called. You need it because it
helps protect the cable insulation. Wrap this stuff for the entire
length of the cable minus the cable ends. It comes in different
colors and I wrapped the positive cable in red and the 20' ground
cable in black plastic. If your battery is a side mount terminal you
might have to drill holes through the side of the plastic battery box
- takes a couple minutes.

> "Jonnie Santos" > wrote in message
> news:Nqocd.69282$Lo6.15671@fed1read03...
> > Thanks for the detailed explanation. Did the cables for the remote
> > battery go through the cabin or under the car? Hope you get a bazillion
> > miles out of your Saturn! (smile)


Thanks for reading! }
 




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