Top 5 racing sims?

I didn't say it's JUST you, I said....it's you.....not the sim. Big
difference.

You and any the others who have these complaints aren't doing something
right, but are blaming the sim instead of correcting the mistake. A 129.2 at
Suzuka in CTDP F1 is simply impossible if the game engine forces the cars to
be loose at the limit.


--
David G Fisher


"Larry" > wrote in message
...
> Nah, it's not me. I read enough of the same complaint all over to know
> it's not just me.
>
> -Larry
>
> "Dave F" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and
>> say........it's YOU.
>>
>> Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad
>> setups (or both).
>>
>> If the cars feel like they are on ice, or not connected to the road, or
>> there isn't enough feedback, it isn't the sim, it's you. This isn't a
>> matter of personal feel or agreeing to disagree, but it's somehting that
>> can be easily be proven. I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of
>> the fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. These F1
>> cars are the perfect shoice to disprove what you claim because they have
>> to be driven exactly like the real drivers do in F1 or you lose massive
>> amounts of time. It is simply impossible to run a clean, realistic
>> looking 118.3 at Silverstone, 128.5 at Shakir, 111.4 at Montreal, 127.3
>> at Nuerburgring, or a 129.2 at Suzuka without being extremely precise. My
>> replays look as if the car is on rails, and there is no wild sawwing back
>> and forth at the wheel. Smooth and precise, and the car looks GLUED to
>> the road because it's taken to the very limit, but never over. That's the
>> only way you can be fast. GPL style driving will get you absolutely
>> nowhere. Never in a million years could anyone look at one of my replays
>> and say it looks like I'm driving on ice. No one could ever come close to
>> those times in these F1 cars if the car felt loose, and with little
>> feedback. Can't be done. The amount of feedback I get from the car is
>> massive. Any tiny change in the setup and I can instantly feel it.
>>
>> Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in
>> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say?? It's impossible.
>>
>> I don't know what wheels you use and what settings you've chosen in the
>> controller screen, but they've got to be wrong. The setups must be poor.
>> What's funny is that no one hates a loose feeling car more than me. If
>> what you guys say is true, I'd be the first one to delete rFactor from my
>> hard drive.
>>
>>
>> --
>> David G Fisher
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Larry" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> 100% agreement on the ISI comments. I think you nailed it perfectly.
>>>
>>> -Larry
>>>
>>> "Remco Moedt" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> 1. GPL
>>>> The physics are a bit outdated, but the game is so well balanced.
>>>> It still has the finest cockpits/carmodels to date, IMO, thanks to
>>>> guys like the GPLEA. If you want to win from the AI, you've to work
>>>> for it, it took me months to win a race. Still playable online, and
>>>> mods are available for other F1 years, with 'corrected' physics.
>>>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/gameplay/replays.
>>>>
>>>> 2. RBR
>>>> It really gives you a feeling like you're driving a rally car. You
>>>> notice how fast you're driving, and I'm often scared of the speed,
>>>> feeling the need to lift. Not easy. The only downside is the fact you
>>>> don't race others, which got me bored after a while, once I knew the
>>>> stages.
>>>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/replays, less on gameplay after
>>>> a while
>>>>
>>>> 3.
>>>> ISI based sims (GTL/GTR2/rFactor)
>>>> I always have an hate/love relation with ISI based sims. The graphics
>>>> are great and still there is so much lacking. You can have great
>>>> dynamic lightning, shadows, cool refections on the car, and stuff like
>>>> that, but what's the point if the car doesn't seem to be connected to
>>>> the road?
>>>>
>>>> The fact that the replay system isn't that nice doesn't help much
>>>> eighter. Online you don't see the suspension move of your opponents,
>>>> and the tyre smoke doesn't feel realistic.
>>>>
>>>> The physics feel nice with a better tyremodel than GPL, but I've
>>>> always the feeling the car floats. It doesn't help that the controller
>>>> lags a bit. I also don't like the way the brakes behave when the disc
>>>> is hot, it's too much an on/off switch.
>>>>
>>>> The AI is bad (rFactor), or not realistic(GTR2/GTL). They match their
>>>> speed on your pace, I always hate that. They also do things which
>>>> would get your licence pulled in real life. I don't like racing them.
>>>> I also don't like it you've to earn the cars, not all of us do've the
>>>> time to race severall hours a day to get the credits.
>>>>
>>>> Online is a mixed bag. I only played rfactor online, and the problem
>>>> is that there are too many mods to get a lot of drivers using the mod
>>>> you like. Since there're so many mods, the quality of drivers is too
>>>> wide spread, with a small chance of racing a group of drivers evenly
>>>> matched.
>>>>
>>>> So, what is the love part then... :-) It's the immersion when you're
>>>> driving a car like the Saleen in GTR2 through Eau Rouge, it's the
>>>> sound, it's the modelling of weather, it's the F1 1979 Mod on Kyalami,
>>>> and it's the idea that all the problems I have could be fixed easily
>>>> with the next patch...but the latter thing is true for years with the
>>>> ISI sims, allthough I keep hoping.
>>>> Great on sound, mixed feelings with the rest.
>>>>
>>>> 4.
>>>> LFS
>>>> This is a good online racer, with decent
>>>> graphics/sounds/physics/replays and stuff. However, the mentallity
>>>> of other drivers is what kills it for me. I always compare it with
>>>> Quake on wheels, always expecting an headshot when exiting a turn.
>>>> Offline the AI is too dull, the same goes for the tracks.
>>>> Nice on Graphics/Sound/Physics/Replays, mixed feeling about gameplay.
>>>>
>>>> 5.
>>>> NetKar Pro
>>>> Driving a car in Netkar Pro, if you can get the car started :-/, is
>>>> the most realistic experience in a sim I have. The latest patch dumbed
>>>> it down somewhat (Grrr BRD), but it's still a great feeling.
>>>> Graphics/Sound/Physics, all great. But then, the gameplay...what
>>>> gameplay? There is no AI, no filled servers online. The only gameplay
>>>> there is, is an online league, but that doesn't help if it doesn't fit
>>>> your schedule.
>>>>
>>>> It might improve someday, who knows...
>>>> Great on graphics/sound/physics, mediocre on replays, no gameplay.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, this is my top 5, for what's worth...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>> Remco
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Remco Moedt" <no@email> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:30:27 -0500, "Dave F" > wrote:
>
>>Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and
>>say........it's
>>YOU.
>
> Of course.
>
>>I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the
>>fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod.
>
> Well Dave, like the great philosopher S. Twain once said,
> 'That Don't Impress Me Much'.

Of course.

>Yes, it might be a configuration
> problem, yes, I might suck driving ISI sims, but don't you think it's
> strange I always have the same problem with all the ISI based sims,
> with different computers/Windows versions, and using different
> controllers?

Not if you go about solving the problem in the same way each time.

> BTW, I don't get a driving on ice feeling, it's more that the car
> behaves in a strange way. Losing grip at strange moments, just as if
> changes in tyre temperature do've more effect as it should have. And
> with the controller lag your reaction is too late, resulting in a
> slip/crash.
>
> I remember when GPL came out. You prefered the feel of Ubisoft F1RS
> above that of GPL. I guess we've to agree our taste differs.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Remco

Everything I said about GPL was confirmed by Kaemmer himself four years ago
when he said the cars had unrealistic grip, and that he had stopped playing
the sim because of it's flaws.

--
David G Fisher

A good point actually, but in a different way.

GPL is HARD to drive. But it's becuase the CARS are hard to drive. It's
the way it is. The lack of traction is inherent in the car itself. But, I
can still understand what the car is doing, and it feels right to me.

The ISI sims are different. The cars don't always do what I think they
should be doing, and the grip I think I should be having isn't there. Or,
maybe better put, isn't transmitted to me very well.

I don't know. Just feels icy to me. It's been like that in every single
ISI sim I've ever driven, except, oddly, SCGT. I had no issues with that
one.

In the old F1 games, it always felt to me like the car was pivoting on a
point midway between the driver and the front tires. I don't notice that
_as much_ in rFactor and GTR2, but I still note a bit of it.

Again, GTR2 feels the best to me so far. I have no idea why.

I'll take hits for this from the Papy Haters, but I don't care. To me, no
one has accomplished the relaying of grip and what the car is doing better
than Papy. I'm not talking about the amount of grip, I'm talking about the
relaying of grip to the driver of the Sim. I still believe the FF in NR2003
sucks though Somehow that goodness never made it over from GPL

For example, in NR2003 at a track like Texas, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc...
where you really lean on and steer the car on the RR tire, I can instantly
tell when I've crossed the line and the rear is starting to step out. I can
then feather the throttle just right to stop the slide but yet not lose any
more time than necessary.

Not that I don't screw it up from time to time

-Larry

"news" > wrote in message
...

> Methinks you guys are overthinking this.
>
> How many of you have actually driven REAL race cars on real tracks?
> I've driven a Busch type car at Lowe's, and have a dirt track "bomber"
> Camaro. My street car is a nitrous sniffing Trans Am (let's just say it's
> got some grip...)
>
> That said, I remember being about ready to pitch the GPL CD out the
> window, and still can't brake properly in LFS without swapping ends in the
> rwd car in the demo.
>
> Because these are SIMULATIONS of the real thing, they won't be 100%
> accurate. And even if they were, being able to drive a 67 F1 car doesn't
> necessarily prepare you to draft at Daytona or drive an sprint car
> sideways for 100 laps.
>
> What is a perfectly accurate model of an F1 car for some people is not for
> others, and even if it was a perfect model, it would still drive like crap
> to others.
>
> Relax and enjoy the diversity.
>
> And thanks to all who gave suggestions.
>
> Ray

Dave F wrote:
> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and say........it's
> YOU.
>
> Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad
> setups (or both).
>

When I tried GTR2, I also had the feeling that the car wasn't connected
to the road. This doesn't necessarily mean lack of grip, but just that
your movements with the steering wheel didn't correspond with their
expected effects. I found that by playing around with the speed
sensitivity and steering rate, I was able to get a good feel though. So
yes, setting up the wheel does make a huge difference.

On the other hand, I am still dismayed that you should have to set up
the wheel like this. I only have limited circuit racing experience, so
the fact that I don't know how a Ferrari Maranello should feel exactly
around Spa, suggests that when I tweak the controls myself it likely
isn't quite right. This is something the game designers should be doing
based on experience with the actual car.

It may be that the tweaking of the controls is necessary as different
models of steering wheels vary importantly in their characteristics.

I also wonder how many "sim" racers know what they are doing in terms of
the feel of the cars. The first force-feedback wheel I tried years ago
was just awful. Last year I bought a logitech momo force due to the rave
reviews, thinking that the technology had finally come of age. I
expected to be able to just plug it in, and it would be about right.
Instead, it was *completely* unrealistic. Firstly, the load when turning
the wheel was the same whether you where turning from dead center, or at
full lock. With a real car, the steering will load up as you turn the
wheel more and more, and there will be little if any resistance when
making small turns. Also, the resistance of the momo force was in
turning the wheel, and once it was turned, you could hold it at the
given amount of lock and there would be practically no load at all, ie,
load was related to turning the wheel. On the other hand, in a real car,
the load is generated by the angle of the wheel as this is generating
the cornering forces. Despite this, you would hear lots of people on the
sim newsgroup saying how great the force-feedback wheels are - so I
wonder just how much experience these drivers have of real cars.

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:40:20 -0500, "Dave F" > wrote:

>"Remco Moedt" <no@email> wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:30:27 -0500, "Dave F" > wrote:

>>>I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the
>>>fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod.
>>
>> Well Dave, like the great philosopher S. Twain once said,
>> 'That Don't Impress Me Much'.
>
>Of course.

For the record, I meant that being fast doesn't mean your opinion is
worth more then someone who isn't that fast. I do respect the fact
you're fast, though.

>>Yes, it might be a configuration
>> problem, yes, I might suck driving ISI sims, but don't you think it's
>> strange I always have the same problem with all the ISI based sims,
>> with different computers/Windows versions, and using different
>> controllers?
>
>Not if you go about solving the problem in the same way each time.

I've had a long correspondence with the ISI guys about my controller
problems, up to the point that they told me how they coded it. It
didn't help...

>> BTW, I don't get a driving on ice feeling, it's more that the car
>> behaves in a strange way. Losing grip at strange moments, just as if
>> changes in tyre temperature do've more effect as it should have. And
>> with the controller lag your reaction is too late, resulting in a
>> slip/crash.
>>
>> I remember when GPL came out. You prefered the feel of Ubisoft F1RS
>> above that of GPL. I guess we've to agree our taste differs.
>
>Everything I said about GPL was confirmed by Kaemmer himself four years ago
>when he said the cars had unrealistic grip, and that he had stopped playing
>the sim because of it's flaws.

Well, yes. Not that the grip (or physics) in F1RS were that good. But
like I said in my original post, I do agree that the physics/tyre
model in rFactor/GTR2/GTL are better than in GPL. It just doesn't
translate that well to my brain. I also must add that I don't care for
modern F1 cars, I don't know if you also drive the slower cars in
rFactor.

Anyway, this thread wasn't about which sim is the best, it's which sim
you like the most.

Cheers!

Remco

Dave F wrote:

> This really isn't about which sim "feels right" to someone. It's about
> disproving claims by some that the game engine is somehow flawed. If these
> claims were true, then my lap times in the F1 cars, and the way the were
> achieved, wouldn't be possible. They haven't set up their wheels correctly,
> are probably using crap setups, and I'd guess they aren't really trying very
> hard to train themselves (as you mentioned) because they really don't want
> to stray from their favorite developers.....if you know what I mean.

Maybe there is a "hidden agenda" but the earlier posts were from people
who simply didn't get the feel with ISI engined sims. rFactor was the
first that changed the feel for me. The F1 series all had that
unexplained lack of connectivity for me but I know others loved it,
whilst others seemed to find rFactor made little difference.

I do think Papy have the best track record for out of the box controller
settings, whilst ISI sims so often need tweaking and if the driver
doesn't hit on the right settings early enough then interest may have
already drifted elsewhere.

Cheers
Tony

Remco Moedt wrote:
> Anyway, this thread wasn't about which sim is the best, it's which sim
> you like the most.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Remco
>

well, it was originally about finding some good sims for my co-worker to
try out his new toy on... and I've been not gaming for some time, so I
was looking to see if the state of the art had changed a lot since I
last played...

That said, for all the guys who love/hate a certain sim because of how
it feels, it may be YOU or it may be the game or the way the car is
modeled. The first time I actually drove my Camaro on the dirt track, I
was surprised just how ungodly rough it was - I was expecting "mud" to
be squishy and sploshy, it was like driving a 3 ton truck over big rocks
at 60 mph. And when I drove at Lowe's back in 2000 at the RPDE, it
actually felt a LOT like NASCAR2, to the point where I felt I could
easily handle another 20-30mph on top of the 143 I turned. (no telling
how I'd do in traffic though...)

It's ok to suck at certain types of race cars.

Modeled correctly isn't necesarrily modeled fast or easy.
I do wonder if the cars in GPL were evil handling witches like that in
real life.

I recommend getting as much real life racing time as possible, even if
it's just in gokarts. AS much fun as sim racing is, it's just not real.
It is cheaper tho, even with $250 steering wheels. I've gone through
4 engines in 3 years. (overheat, oil pan damage, bent crank, oil pressure)

Ray

Mark,

You had something wrong in the wheel setup. It shouldn't have felt
like that at all. None of the FF wheels I've owned work the way you
describe. They load up realistically.

All this depends on the FF settings, though. ISI had a lot of
variables buried in .INI files. You can completely change the feel of
the FF by messing around in those files.

Pat Dotson


Mark wrote:
> I also wonder how many "sim" racers know what they are doing in terms of
> the feel of the cars. The first force-feedback wheel I tried years ago
> was just awful. Last year I bought a logitech momo force due to the rave
> reviews, thinking that the technology had finally come of age. I
> expected to be able to just plug it in, and it would be about right.
> Instead, it was *completely* unrealistic. Firstly, the load when turning
> the wheel was the same whether you where turning from dead center, or at
> full lock. With a real car, the steering will load up as you turn the
> wheel more and more, and there will be little if any resistance when
> making small turns. Also, the resistance of the momo force was in
> turning the wheel, and once it was turned, you could hold it at the
> given amount of lock and there would be practically no load at all, ie,
> load was related to turning the wheel. On the other hand, in a real car,
> the load is generated by the angle of the wheel as this is generating
> the cornering forces. Despite this, you would hear lots of people on the
> sim newsgroup saying how great the force-feedback wheels are - so I
> wonder just how much experience these drivers have of real cars.

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:52:01 -0500, "Larry" > wrote:

>I'll take hits for this from the Papy Haters, but I don't care. To me, no
>one has accomplished the relaying of grip and what the car is doing better
>than Papy. I'm not talking about the amount of grip, I'm talking about the
>relaying of grip to the driver of the Sim. I still believe the FF in NR2003
>sucks though Somehow that goodness never made it over from GPL
>
>For example, in NR2003 at a track like Texas, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc...
>where you really lean on and steer the car on the RR tire, I can instantly
>tell when I've crossed the line and the rear is starting to step out. I can
>then feather the throttle just right to stop the slide but yet not lose any
>more time than necessary.
>

I'll point out that NR2003 is more than just one physics set where
everyone runs ovals-the GTP mod, which hardly anyone has played
other than the few people who bought NR2003 when it first came out,
has a completely different physics set-yet I can still feel via the FF
what each wheel is doing and adjust instantly. I can feel when the
fronts are out of shape and about to lose grip, when the rears are
getting loose, etc. The FF in the ISI sims feels anemic to me by
comparison. And if I have to endlessly fart around with various
settings in and out of the .ini files to get the right feel, well the
hell with that.

John D

PW wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu
> > wrote:
>
>> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best...
>
> what is CMR?
>
Colin McRae Rally.