U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents

U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents
Automaker acknowledges other research, independent corroboration is needed
Staff and wire reports August 10, 2010 - 4:01 pm ET
UPDATED: 8/10/10 6:56 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON -- Brakes weren't applied by drivers of Toyota vehicles in at
least 35 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration, U.S. auto-safety
regulators said after studying data recorders.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also saw no evidence of
electronics-related causes for the accidents in reviewing the vehicle
recorders, known as black boxes, the agency said today in a report to
lawmakers.

The preliminary findings bolster Toyota's contentions that there's no
evidence of flaws in electronic controls on its vehicles and that motorists
in some cases confused the accelerator and brake pedals.

But Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons acknowledged this evening that the
company's black boxes have limited capability because they typically produce
data only when the airbag is activated.

"The data should also be independently corroborated, e.g., through physical
evidence, other research, etc." he said in an e-mail to Automotive News.

Toyota's black boxes are built into the airbag sensor and usually begin
recording only when the airbag is deployed, Lyons said.

Since November, Toyota has recalled 9.4 million vehicles worldwide,
including 7.5 million in the U.S., for acceleration problems involving floor
mats and sticky pedals, Lyons said.

"At this early point in its investigation, NHTSA officials have drawn no
conclusions about additional causes of unintended acceleration in Toyotas
beyond the two defects already known -- pedal entrapment and sticking gas
pedals," the agency said in the report provided for a briefing to lawmakers
in Washington.

In addition to the 60 percent of cases where brakes weren't used, NHTSA
cited accidents in which the brakes were applied partially or the data
recorder failed.

Toyota has conducted more than 4,000 on-site vehicle inspections, and said
today it has not found electronic throttle controls to be a cause of
unintended acceleration.

"Toyota's own vehicle evaluations have confirmed that the remedies it
developed for sticking accelerator pedal and potential accelerator pedal
entrapment by an unsecured or incompatible floor mat are effective," the
company said.

"We have also confirmed several different causes for unintended acceleration
reports, including pedal entrapment by floor mats, pedal misapplication and
vehicle functions where a slight increase in engine speed is normal, such as
engine idle up from a cold start or air conditioning loads."

In many cases studied by federal regulators, the driver made an allegation
of unintended acceleration.

Questions about data

NHTSA said its study was limited to post 2007 vehicles because most Toyota
models made before 2007 did not have black boxes that stored pre-crash data.

Most sudden acceleration complaints since 1999 occurred before 2007,
according to a February study by Safety Research & Strategies, a research
and advocacy firm funded in part by plaintiff lawyers.

A high proportion of these involved 2002-2006 Camrys and 2005-2006 Tacoma
pick-up trucks, the study found.

"The idea that Toyota has been exonerated is preposterous given all the
facts," said Sean Kane, the firm's president. "This is a small sampling of
crashes."

Kane added that the vast majority of sudden acceleration incidents are at
too low a speed to activate the black boxes. The NHTSA study is thus limited
to an examination of high-speed crashes, he said.

In addition, Toyota itself has said in court that the scientific accuracy of
its black boxes has never been validated, calling into question the validity
of their data, Kane said.

Limited braking

Of the 58 recording devices analyzed, 35 showed that at the moment of the
crash impact, the driver hadn't depressed the brake pedal at all, safety
officials said. Fourteen more cases showed partial braking. In another nine
cases, the brake had been depressed at the "last second" before impact.

The government's preliminary examination also said there were a handful of
other crashes where the brake was pressed early and released, or in which
the brake and gas pedals were pressed at the same time. There was one case
of pedal entrapment by a floor mat.

In five cases, NHTSA said, the electronic recording device failed to work.

The agency is continuing its review of Toyota defects and is working with
NASA, the U.S. space agency, and the National Academy of Sciences to probe
the cause of the crashes.

Neil Roland and Bloomberg News contributed to this report

Read mo
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...100819988/1424

On 08/10/2010 08:44 PM, C. E. White wrote:

<snip masquerade>

you're a detroit shill "farmer" ed. trying to "blend in" by posting
something we already knew doesn't work.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

jim beam wrote:
> On 08/10/2010 08:44 PM, C. E. White wrote:
>
> <snip masquerade>
>
> you're a detroit shill "farmer" ed. trying to "blend in" by posting
> something we already knew doesn't work.
>
>

You keep accusing him of that but do you have any evidence that it's true?

"C. E. White" > wrote in message
...
> U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents

Isnt that what was found in the Audi cases some years ago? AFAIK,
they never found a failure in the systems in those cases.

On Aug 10, 8:44*pm, "C. E. White" >
wrote:
> U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents
> Automaker acknowledges other research, independent corroboration is needed
> Staff and wire reports August 10, 2010 - 4:01 pm ET
> UPDATED: 8/10/10 6:56 p.m. ET
>
> WASHINGTON -- Brakes weren't applied by drivers of Toyota vehicles in at
> least 35 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration, U.S. auto-safety
> regulators said after studying data recorders.
>
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also saw no evidence of
> electronics-related causes for the accidents in reviewing the vehicle
> recorders, known as black boxes, the agency said today in a report to
> lawmakers.
>
> The preliminary findings bolster Toyota's contentions that there's no
> evidence of flaws in electronic controls on its vehicles and that motorists
> in some cases confused the accelerator and brake pedals.
>
> But Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons acknowledged this evening that the
> company's black boxes have limited capability because they typically produce
> data only when the airbag is activated.
>
> "The data should also be independently corroborated, e.g., through physical
> evidence, other research, etc." he said in an e-mail to Automotive News.
>
> Toyota's black boxes are built into the airbag sensor and usually begin
> recording only when the airbag is deployed, Lyons said.
>
> Since November, Toyota has recalled 9.4 million vehicles worldwide,
> including 7.5 million in the U.S., for acceleration problems involving floor
> mats and sticky pedals, Lyons said.
>
> "At this early point in its investigation, NHTSA officials have drawn no
> conclusions about additional causes of unintended acceleration in Toyotas
> beyond the two defects already known -- pedal entrapment and sticking gas
> pedals," the agency said in the report provided for a briefing to lawmakers
> in Washington.
>
> In addition to the 60 percent of cases where brakes weren't used, NHTSA
> cited accidents in which the brakes were applied partially or the data
> recorder failed.
>
> Toyota has conducted more than 4,000 on-site vehicle inspections, and said
> today it has not found electronic throttle controls to be a cause of
> unintended acceleration.
>
> "Toyota's own vehicle evaluations have confirmed that the remedies it
> developed for sticking accelerator pedal and potential accelerator pedal
> entrapment by an unsecured or incompatible floor mat are effective," the
> company said.
>
> "We have also confirmed several different causes for unintended acceleration
> reports, including pedal entrapment by floor mats, pedal misapplication and
> vehicle functions where a slight increase in engine speed is normal, such as
> engine idle up from a cold start or air conditioning loads."
>
> In many cases studied by federal regulators, the driver made an allegation
> of unintended acceleration.
>
> Questions about data
>
> NHTSA said its study was limited to post 2007 vehicles because most Toyota
> models made before 2007 did not have black boxes that stored pre-crash data.
>
> Most sudden acceleration complaints since 1999 occurred before 2007,
> according to a February study by Safety Research & Strategies, a research
> and advocacy firm funded in part by plaintiff lawyers.
>
> A high proportion of these involved 2002-2006 Camrys and 2005-2006 Tacoma
> pick-up trucks, the study found.
>
> "The idea that Toyota has been exonerated is preposterous given all the
> facts," said Sean Kane, the firm's president. "This is a small sampling of
> crashes."
>
> Kane added that the vast majority of sudden acceleration incidents are at
> too low a speed to activate the black boxes. The NHTSA study is thus limited
> to an examination of high-speed crashes, he said.
>
> In addition, Toyota itself has said in court that the scientific accuracy of
> its black boxes has never been validated, calling into question the validity
> of their data, Kane said.
>
> Limited braking
>
> Of the 58 recording devices analyzed, 35 showed that at the moment of the
> crash impact, the driver hadn't depressed the brake pedal at all, safety
> officials said. Fourteen more cases showed partial braking. In another nine
> cases, the brake had been depressed at the "last second" before impact.
>
> The government's preliminary examination also said there were a handful of
> other crashes where the brake was pressed early and released, or in which
> the brake and gas pedals were pressed at the same time. There was one case
> of pedal entrapment by a floor mat.
>
> In five cases, NHTSA said, the electronic recording device failed to work..
>
> The agency is continuing its review of Toyota defects and is working with
> NASA, the U.S. space agency, and the National Academy of Sciences to probe
> the cause of the crashes.
>
> Neil Roland and Bloomberg News contributed to this report
>
> Read mohttp://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...0810/OEM/10081...

I have often wondered about the case that kicked it all off - the LEO
who took his family into a ?bridge abutment? while on the phone. I
wonder if there ever was an investigation into the possibility of a
murder/suicide.

Harry K

"Harry K" > wrote in message
...

I have often wondered about the case that kicked it all off - the LEO
who took his family into a ?bridge abutment? while on the phone. I
wonder if there ever was an investigation into the possibility of a
murder/suicide.

Harry K

==============

None of the occupants have agreed to discuss the matter.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:44:48 -0400, C. E. White wrote:

> U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents
> Automaker acknowledges other research, independent corroboration is needed
> Staff and wire reports August 10, 2010 - 4:01 pm ET
> UPDATED: 8/10/10 6:56 p.m. ET
>
> WASHINGTON -- Brakes weren't applied by drivers of Toyota vehicles in at
> least 35 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration, U.S. auto-safety
> regulators said after studying data recorders.
>

That leaves 23 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration where the
driver DID apply the breaks. Interesting deflection technique, a technique
of the guilty.

"Michael Dobony" > wrote in message
> That leaves 23 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration where the
> driver DID apply the breaks. Interesting deflection technique, a technique
> of the guilty.\

They said "at least".. As I read the piece, the data from the car's
computers
is not as complete as would be desireable.
So, they know that in 35 cases, no brakes were applied. In the others
they dont know for sure, or there could have been brakes and accelerator
simultaneously.

So, bottom line, you cant draw much of a conclusion one way or the other
on this......except that in a substantial number of cases, the brakes were
never applied, and in the rest the data is not conclusive.

At least that is the way I see it.

"hls" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Dobony" > wrote in message
>> That leaves 23 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration where the
>> driver DID apply the breaks. Interesting deflection technique, a
>> technique
>> of the guilty.\
>
> They said "at least".. As I read the piece, the data from the car's
> computers
> is not as complete as would be desireable.
> So, they know that in 35 cases, no brakes were applied. In the others
> they dont know for sure, or there could have been brakes and accelerator
> simultaneously.
>
> So, bottom line, you cant draw much of a conclusion one way or the other
> on this......except that in a substantial number of cases, the brakes were
> never applied, and in the rest the data is not conclusive.
>
> At least that is the way I see it.


Who knows for sure? If what the Toyota spokesman says is true, the black
boxes are set up to be useless. Recording *begins* after a car hits a tree?
This contradicts what other sources have said in the past: The black boxes
record 5 seconds of data at a time.

"But Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons acknowledged this evening that the
company's black boxes have limited capability because they typically produce
data only when the airbag is activated.
....
Toyota's black boxes are built into the airbag sensor and usually begin
recording only when the airbag is deployed, Lyons said."

On Aug 11, 9:30*am, "JoeSpareBedroom" >
wrote:
> "hls" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael Dobony" > wrote in message
> >> That leaves 23 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration where the
> >> driver DID apply the breaks. Interesting deflection technique, a
> >> technique
> >> of the guilty.\
>
> > They said "at least".. As I read the piece, the data from the car's
> > computers
> > is not as complete as would be desireable.
> > So, they know that in 35 cases, no brakes were applied. *In the others
> > they dont know for sure, or there could have been brakes and accelerator
> > simultaneously.
>
> > So, bottom line, you cant draw much of a conclusion one way or the other
> > on this......except that in a substantial number of cases, the brakes were
> > never applied, and in the rest the data is not conclusive.
>
> > At least that is the way I see it.
>
> Who knows for sure? If what the Toyota spokesman says is true, the black
> boxes are set up to be useless. Recording *begins* after a car hits a tree?
> This contradicts what other sources have said in the past: The black boxes
> record 5 seconds of data at a time.
>
> "But Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons acknowledged this evening that the
> company's black boxes have limited capability because they typically produce
> data only when the airbag is activated.
> ...
> Toyota's black boxes are built into the airbag sensor and usually begin
> recording only when the airbag is deployed, Lyons said."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That was my opinion. What were they thinking? About as useless as
tits on a boar hog.

Harry K