Some good news about the new Jetta

Look at it positively. Read some of the literature on the subject. You might
be surprised.

I work in the automotive industry, and read automotive related trade
magazines.

We were having this very discussion one day - Hybrids/Diesels/Pure
electrics... And how battery technology just isn't there, and won't be for a
while - they are having trouble reducing weight, shortening charge times,
increasing capacity and reducing costs... a lot of problems. People in the
industry speculate maybe in 20 years or so, but probably longer.

There is a strong drive for gas/diesel still (which is hindering progress
for development of new technology)... and while hybrid technology is pushing
battery technology further, it's a slightly different direction (the Hybrid
battery being more like a super-capacitor- quick to charge.... but range is
pretty limited)

Ideas like having a battery of standard size, that you plug in to a slot in
your car... goto the "gas" station and swap for a fresh one, and have them
charge your old one, and you getting a new one from them were shot down due
to the costs involved in storage of so many large cells, people not wanting
to handle batteries (they're heavy and potentially dangerous), and the fact
that you could be stuck with a battery that can't be charged anymore (it
happens... batteries fail)... A charger at home is great, but the current
draw would be quite a bit if it charged a battery quickly - even if it
charged a battery at 60amps per hour - you would still be using more then 60
amps of current to supply the charger (unless your houses power system
operates at a higher voltage then your cars battery)... a normal homes
maximum is either 100A or 200A (60A/Hour going by if you have a 120V-DC
battery, and a 120V-AC supply, running thru a perfect efficiency rectifier
and power supply (they don't exist).... If they made the batter a higher
voltage (say 240V) and at 60A/Hour.... which is pretty low, really... then
your houses charging system would pose an even greater demand on your houses
electrical system - you would need 120A/hour to charge the battery with only
120V-AC supplying the charger... this is pretty astronomical).

Truth is, from what anyone at work has heard (some of our management talks
to GM, Ford, Chrysler etc... other auto companies) no one has really figured
out a cheaper to build and more effective fuel efficient vehicle then the
hybrid right now.

And... BTW 60A/Hour at 120VDC is only 7200W/Hour... which is only around
10Horsepower.... I just used 60A/Hour since it's a fairly common current
capacity of an automotive battery/alternator combination, tho my voltages
used were 10 times higher then a normal car battery... I picked the voltage
of 120V since this is household voltage... and somewhat more realistic to
drive a motor which would be powering an electric car.

..... Starting to see how hard it is to charge large batteries quickly? Why
do you think AA batteries get so warm when they are charged.... and that's
only 1500mA/Hour or so.
"Papa" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Are you really informed, or is that just an opinion?
>
>> The technology is not there, and from what I've heard won't be for
>> decades - especially the recharging part.... SO much current at once.
>
>

In article >,
says...
> I work in the automotive industry, and read automotive related trade
> magazines.

I used to, but I've been watching the fuel cell developments with casual
interest. They're about good enough to run a cellular phone now, but
whoa! Expensive! There's work going on to increase the energy density
and cost, but it's gonna probably be awhile before it's usable, much
less practical.

I think that's the way it will go if electrics work tho'. Battery
charging is just too onerous. With a fuel cell, just add the fuel
components until you're done, then stop. No recharging required.

For just around town, electrics are doable now. For further range,
hybrids work. If you need more sitz spotz tho', neither one yet powers
a minivan or SUV.

Mark
'95 Jetta GLS

> .... Starting to see how hard it is to charge large batteries quickly? Why
> do you think AA batteries get so warm when they are charged.... and that's
> only 1500mA/Hour or so.


That really has very little to do with the viability of EVs, but that is the
American automobile industry "party line". As has been shown over and over
again, most drivers in this country, on average, travel well under 50 miles
on their daily excursions. That is easily within the capability of an EV,
and as I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, the Toyota RAV4 EV was
capable of more than twice that distance between charges.

As for batteries being decades away that are capable of much longer
distances, you haven't been paying attention. For example, EV enthusiasts
have already driven the entire 250 miles between LA and Las Vegas without a
single stop for recharging - and at freeway speeds - in an EV powered by
Li-Ion batteries. That trip from LA on I15 to Las Vegas included two climbs,
the Cajon Pass and Baker Grade, both with about 3500 feet of elevation gain.
Not only that, but several university engineering departments have been
breaking all kind of EV distance records during the past 5 years - recently
with the use of laptop batteries.

So it is really a stretch to say the technology is not there. It is, and it
will get better quickly if we just let it.

When I leave my house in the morning I look at my fuel guage. I figure
where I have to go and if I have a low tank I refuel. Fuel is 10-20
cents a gallon cheaper where I live than where I go. I drive 90+ miles
in a typical day. When I get home I might drive to town to eat or go
to the gym. My not work related driving is usually less than 50 mile.
If I did not have a job where I do I might have a 20 mile round trip
commute like my dad did. So what if the battery has to charge for a
few hours overnight. It is totaly feasible. There are exceptions for
every rule. If you need to drive 400 miles a day then electric is not
practicle. If you have to carry a ton of horse manure wherever you go
then an electric vehicle might not be practicle. When I have to haul
stuff I use my truck. When I have to haul myself I use my car which
get more than twice the mileage. Or I use the bicycle which pollutes
less than the car getting 50+ miles per gallon.

Mike Smith > wrote:

>Papa wrote:
>
>> All I can say is, look it up. Perhaps then you won't be so sure.
>
>Look what up? That EVs have limited range, payload, and performance?
>What's to look up? Until a battery technology is available that allows
>an EV to go 400 miles (highway) between charges, can last 200,000 miles,
>and doesn't reduce payload capacity, I ain't interested.


Jim B.

wrote:

> So what if the battery has to charge for a
> few hours overnight. It is totaly feasible.

Sure it is. *Most* of the time.

> There are exceptions for
> every rule. If you need to drive 400 miles a day then electric is not
> practicle.

I don't drive 400 miles *every* day, not even most days. But what am I
supposed to when I need to take that occasional 250-mile road trip to
Boston, or Ocean City? Or it's the holidays and I need to make the
200-mile round trip to see the folks?

> When I have to haul
> stuff I use my truck. When I have to haul myself I use my car which
> get more than twice the mileage. Or I use the bicycle which pollutes
> less than the car getting 50+ miles per gallon.

Must be nice to have multiple vehicles. Those of us who don't have to
choose one that covers the largest possible range of possibilities,
which for many people rules out EVs.

--
Mike Smith

Rob Guenther wrote:

> The battery thing is pretty much true - you have to remember this batter has
> to be AFFORDABLE (this is the key) reliable enough for a longer service life
> then the car itself - be able to recharge in under, i'd say 10 mintures from
> flat (who wants to do a road trip and have to spend the night because your
> car needs a full recharge, oven tho the day is only 1/2 done)... and around
> a 700kms range.

It might be acceptable to have a shorter range *if* the charging is
fast. Like, say you could get a 50% charge (200 miles) in a few
minutes, but to get a 100% charge took a couple of hours (i.e.
overnight) - I think most people could live with that.

--
Mike Smith

You still haven't answered how long it takes to charge a completely flat
battery.

I live in Canada, it gets to -40C in the winter... I take long trips (500Kms
to Ottawa, slightly more to Montreal, almost 400Kms to North Bay) and these
trips are pretty common for the other Canadians I talk to.... some of us own
cottages up North where services are not availible (electric even in some
cases... if you want to to really remote).

As one person posted, fuel cells are going to be the ticket.
"Papa" > wrote in message
k.net...
>> .... Starting to see how hard it is to charge large batteries quickly?
>> Why do you think AA batteries get so warm when they are charged.... and
>> that's only 1500mA/Hour or so.
>
>
> That really has very little to do with the viability of EVs, but that is
> the American automobile industry "party line". As has been shown over and
> over again, most drivers in this country, on average, travel well under 50
> miles on their daily excursions. That is easily within the capability of
> an EV, and as I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, the Toyota
> RAV4 EV was capable of more than twice that distance between charges.
>
> As for batteries being decades away that are capable of much longer
> distances, you haven't been paying attention. For example, EV enthusiasts
> have already driven the entire 250 miles between LA and Las Vegas without
> a single stop for recharging - and at freeway speeds - in an EV powered by
> Li-Ion batteries. That trip from LA on I15 to Las Vegas included two
> climbs, the Cajon Pass and Baker Grade, both with about 3500 feet of
> elevation gain. Not only that, but several university engineering
> departments have been breaking all kind of EV distance records during the
> past 5 years - recently with the use of laptop batteries.
>
> So it is really a stretch to say the technology is not there. It is, and
> it will get better quickly if we just let it.
>

..... if I could charge 1/2 my battery in a few minutes, it would be
permissable to charge the whole thing in twice the time.

Charing a battery, as I understand it, is purely a matter of Amps per hour
going in, and discharging is the same, but in reverse (Amp/Hour delivered).
"Mike Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Rob Guenther wrote:
>
>> The battery thing is pretty much true - you have to remember this batter
>> has to be AFFORDABLE (this is the key) reliable enough for a longer
>> service life then the car itself - be able to recharge in under, i'd say
>> 10 mintures from flat (who wants to do a road trip and have to spend the
>> night because your car needs a full recharge, oven tho the day is only
>> 1/2 done)... and around a 700kms range.
>
> It might be acceptable to have a shorter range *if* the charging is fast.
> Like, say you could get a 50% charge (200 miles) in a few minutes, but to
> get a 100% charge took a couple of hours (i.e. overnight) - I think most
> people could live with that.
>
> --
> Mike Smith

"Rob Guenther" > wrote in message
...
>I think they are toying with a hybrid diesel engine...
>
In the early 80's they had some prototype 3 cylinder diesel hybred rabbits
with a generator/starter/tourque converter instead of clutch and flywheel.
Popular Science did a write up of it. Of course they never crossed the pond.

JoBo