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$300 to replace both oxegen sensors



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 11th 06, 08:46 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

does that sound a little high? The mechanic suggested I replace both
even though only one is malfunctioning, is that standard?

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  #2  
Old February 11th 06, 10:06 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

What year car? How many miles? What symptoms led to this decision? Which one
is said to be malfunctioning?

Meanwhile you can check the site https://www.automedicsupply.com/ for
prices. It has the best I have ever seen for Genunine Honda oxygen sensors.

Do not use aftermarket oxygen sensors.

> wrote
> does that sound a little high? The mechanic suggested I replace both
> even though only one is malfunctioning, is that standard?
>



  #3  
Old February 12th 06, 04:34 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

so I guess I got ripped off. He charged me $112 and $116 for two
sensors and they sell on that site for around $62. I don't even know if
he gave me Honda sensors. Can I go back to him and ask for a refund? I
already paid him. My car is a 2000 Honda Civic LX Automatic 4 cyl. 77k
miles. What led to the decision was that my service engine light was on
and he plugged in that machine under my dashboard and it said the O2
sensor malfunctioned.

  #4  
Old February 12th 06, 06:31 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

My two cents:

I wouldn't say you got ripped off just yet. That site is very unusual. The
dealer would have charged you closer to what www.slhonda.com would ask
(around $150-$200 for each oxygen sensor, not counting the labor), and
probably more.

The primary oxygen sensor (upstream of the cat converter) is fairly critical
to the car's operation, supplying a signal to the engine computer that
ultimately adjusts the fuel-air ratio for different operating conditions. If
the primary one died, then it should be replaced sooner rather than later.

The secondary oxygen sensor (downstream of the cat converter) is mostly
there to monitor the cat converter.

I would ask the guy whether he put in genuine Honda sensors or aftermarket
ones, for your records. Aftermarket ones tend not to last as long, from my
reading.

As far as asking for a refund: There's no harm in doing so, but a person has
to know what oxygen sensors do to argue the case. You could say reports on
the internet are that usually only one fails at a time. Then you could ask
him, "So which one really failed"? Then add you're going to be left feeling
you got ripped off unless he remedies the situation or proves both really
went bad.

I'm sure the guy will roll his eyes when he hears this. And he'd be partly
justified: After all, you agreed to the work. But he wouldn't be fully
justified, because it would seem he wasn't fully honest with you. On the
third hand, you're still asking questions /after/ the fact. That doesn't
seem completely fair. Furthermore, I don't think it will be easy to get
evidence the guy was lying before (assuming he was). Ideally the tech will
prove a certain code was set by the engine computer, but this long after the
fact?

If you do ask the guy for a refund, I wouldn't plan on using his shop in the
future.

I wouldn't expect any refund. Assuming only one sensor went bad, let him
know you won't be using him again and can't recommend his shop to others.
Then let him make up his mind. If he doesn't refund a cent, take it as a
lesson learned. We all suffer through such lessons with our cars but are
usually savvier the next time around. So it wasn't a total loss.

I'd also try to find out if the oxygen sensors would be covered under the
federal emissions warranty. Google on this for info. I have always found it
hard to nail down in specific situations. Dealer service departments are
usually pretty savvy on the subject.

Check back for another day or so to get others' opinions.

> wrote
> so I guess I got ripped off. He charged me $112 and $116 for two
> sensors and they sell on that site for around $62. I don't even know if
> he gave me Honda sensors. Can I go back to him and ask for a refund? I
> already paid him. My car is a 2000 Honda Civic LX Automatic 4 cyl. 77k
> miles. What led to the decision was that my service engine light was on
> and he plugged in that machine under my dashboard and it said the O2
> sensor malfunctioned.



  #5  
Old February 12th 06, 07:18 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

Elle wrote:
> Check back for another day or so to get others' opinions.


i sure hope they replaced *something*. if they were trying to pull a
fast one, they COULD have just replaced the primary one that likely went
bad, yet charged for both.

then again, i paid $220 at the dealer for the primary one, and did it
myself in less time than it takes to change a spark plug.

my $99 actron scanner was able to tell me *which* O2 sensor went bad,
and why. i verified the problem with an ohmmeter.
  #6  
Old February 13th 06, 04:20 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

SoCalMike > wrote in
:

> Elle wrote:
>> Check back for another day or so to get others' opinions.

>
> i sure hope they replaced *something*. if they were trying to pull a
> fast one, they COULD have just replaced the primary one that likely
> went bad, yet charged for both.
>
> then again, i paid $220 at the dealer for the primary one, and did it
> myself in less time than it takes to change a spark plug.
>
> my $99 actron scanner was able to tell me *which* O2 sensor went bad,
> and why. i verified the problem with an ohmmeter.
>


Replacing the O2 sensors when you have an O2 sensor code is the most
commonly done waste of money there is. O2 code just means the O2's out
of range. All it takes is a vacuum leak or dirty injectors to cause the
same problem. Don't be surprised if the codes come back. If it's a
"convertor efficieny" code and your cat's got 100K miles on it, you
might want to budget for a cat.

Price wise, the price isn't bad. Honda wants $170+ for each.

  #7  
Old February 13th 06, 07:01 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

So should I assume I didn't get a Honda O2 sensor? What is the danger
of using an aftermarket O2 sensor?

  #8  
Old February 13th 06, 08:31 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

It's just not likely to last as long. No big deal, from my reading.

If it is a non-Honda sensor, I wouldn't sweat it at this point.

Contrary to what the other poster said, IMO replacing the O2 sensor is not
at all necessarily a waste of money when you get a code for same. I do agree
it's kinda early for an oxygen sensor to die, at 77k miles and six years on
your 2000 Civic. It's also possible other things may be behind the code. We
just don't know yet. If the code returns, then go to a different shop,
preferably an independent import car shop. Tell them the code is back, etc.

Try to pay attention to your car for other symptoms. Like poor gas mileage,
or running rough. Are you following the maintenance schedule for the car,
and using OEM parts for plugs, ignition wires, cap and distributor? Making
sure the air filter and fuel filter are changed as recommended? Dumping a
bottle of Chevron Techron into the fuel tank a few weeks before the next oil
change? (That last one is something a lot of us here do, but whether it make
a difference or not is not clear. Our old cars keep running, though!)

Elle
Original owner, 1991 Civic LX, 174k miles.

> wrote
> So should I assume I didn't get a Honda O2 sensor? What is the danger
> of using an aftermarket O2 sensor?
>



  #9  
Old February 13th 06, 10:00 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

"Dufus Systems" > wrote
> My point was simply that the O2 sensors are the MOST mis-diagnosed
> problems you see today.


I loathe hyperbole--it's dishonest--and doubt we could quantify what system
or part is the most "mis-diagnosed.'

> At 70K miles an O2 sensor's on borrowed time,


I absolutely dispute this. Mine worked fine for over ten years and 150k
miles. 40+ mpg, no problems.

> it's slower than it was new and won't let the ECU control the fuel
> mixture as well as it used to BUT, that doesn't mean it's bad.
>
> Most mechanics either don't bother or don't know how to trouble-shoot an
> O2 sensor code. The code doesn't mean "Bad O2 sensor" it say, the data
> coming from the O2 is out of range so, you need to look in the helms
> manual and follow the procedure.
>
> Say you have a P0131 code (code 1 on older honda's) which is an primary
> O2 sensor code.


I don't think you're exactly wrong in the points you made. For example, if a
car seems to be running fine, and the oxygen sensor code comes up, then I
think this in particular is a situation where you want to see what, besides
a bad O2 sensor, can set off this code. Certainly the codes can mislead the
inexperienced. Manuals are pretty good these days and emphasize that a loose
electrical connection may set off a code and not at all indicate the main
component monitored has failed.

Dunno what exactly you mean by "older hondas," but since there are many
folks with pre OBD-II cars who post here, from my reading an oxygen sensor
not working well will not necessarily set off a code. I think pre-emptive
replacement of oxygen sensors is prudent.

> You go to page 11-67 in the manual, follow the procedure.


That's the factory service manual, which a lot of DIYers do not have.

> Measure the O2 voltage. If it's out of range what's the first thing you
> do? Replace the O2 sensor? No, check the fuel pressure/fuel filter. They
> can cause the sensor to look bad too. There's a whole 'nother procedure
> for testing the fuel system. Its alot easier to just sell you another O2
> sensor and hope that fixes it.


Again, I definitely agree shops will take people for a ride and one must be
careful. I think it's pretty clear that this shop that sold the guy both the
front and rear oxygen sensors took advantage.

But IMO, in other situations, it's not just about 'ease.' It takes time to
do exact diagnoses. That time is expensive.

So I think one shouldn't trust one's shop entirely. OTOH, I think many shops
make choices that are very much prudent when it comes to "replace" as
opposed to "diagnose exactly, repair but don't replace, and risk a comeback
or not truly superior performance."


  #10  
Old February 13th 06, 10:20 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
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Default $300 to replace both oxegen sensors

"Elle" > wrote in
hlink.net:

>
> Dunno what exactly you mean by "older hondas," but since there are
> many folks with pre OBD-II cars who post here, from my reading an
> oxygen sensor not working well will not necessarily set off a code. I
> think pre-emptive replacement of oxygen sensors is prudent.
>
>> You go to page 11-67 in the manual, follow the procedure.

>
> That's the factory service manual, which a lot of DIYers do not have.
>
>
> Again, I definitely agree shops will take people for a ride and one
> must be careful. I think it's pretty clear that this shop that sold
> the guy both the front and rear oxygen sensors took advantage.
>
> But IMO, in other situations, it's not just about 'ease.' It takes
> time to do exact diagnoses. That time is expensive.
>
> So I think one shouldn't trust one's shop entirely. OTOH, I think many
> shops make choices that are very much prudent when it comes to
> "replace" as opposed to "diagnose exactly, repair but don't replace,
> and risk a comeback or not truly superior performance."
>
>
>

Just to be clear, I'm only a DIYer myself. I wouldn't work on a Honda
without a Helms manual though, in either electronic or paper forms. All
other manuals are crap. I spent $260 on a OBD2 scanner so, I pretty much
have all the tools I need to keep my honda running. When I get an O2
sensor code, I follow the procedures in the manual because any other
method is just 1/2 assed.

Older Hondas = non-OBD2. They changed to the P### codes with OBD2 but,
there's still a crossover to the OBD1 codes. So, P0131 in a '96 Integra =
code 1 in a '95 Integra.

You seem to arque that it's ok to charge the customer $300 for new O2
sensors that they might not need because it's easier for the shop to do
it than to troubleshoot it. Well, for the shop that's a sweet idea. They
get the profit on the sensors and then when the code comes back, they
make money AGAIN on trouble-shooting the car the right way. They might
have solved the problem by changing out the fuel filter but, then they
don't make as much profit do they?

As for the life of the O2 sensor. They're like batteries, timing belts
and radiators. They degrade with time. The "cross counts" slow down and
they do a worse job telling the ECU what the engine's doing as time goes
on. Your car is what, pre-OBD1? That means things were pretty lax when
it came to emissions. If you'd changed it at 80k miles instead of 150,
you might have more than paid for the new sensor with fuel savings.

Current car's in the US are warrented for 8 years/80K miles before the
need emissions service. To me, that means anything over 80K miles is
borrowed time. They used to recommend replacing the O2 sensor every 50K
miles for maximum fuel economy.

 




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