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Cash for clunkers?



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 5th 09, 06:25 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Jim Warman
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Posts: 630
Default Cash for clunkers?

Some of us drive those things we want to drive.... others drive those things
we can afford to drive.... some folks even decide that they will do more
than their fair share to reduce the load on our environment and spend the
extra coin for a hybrid. Or should the whole world start driving old
Mustangs ranging from painstakingly maintained to clapped out pieces of crap
that only an owner could love....

The cash for clunkers program is a way to try stimulating the US economy...
while attempts at spending your way out of debt need to be considered
carefully, I'm not really surprised that all the critics are not suggesting
alternatives... We can just let the economy collapse and all of us can be on
welfare is the thought process I am seeing.

My 4X4 is likely cleaner than most of the modified vehicles represented
here... and there is every chjance that, unloaded, I am spending less money
to go further thana lot of you stop light Adrettis...


Both of our governments are busy trying to stimulate research into alternate
fuel sources - this would hopefully ease the burden on our ecosystem.

Reducing fuel consumption (at the cost of our atmosphere) is a fools
errand... or should the government divert funding from alternate fuels and
direct it, instead, to developing alternate sources of **** we can breathe?

Dick... in case you hadn't noticed.... ANYTHING idling on the freeway is
wasting gas...


"Dick R." > wrote in message
...
>I hope nobody minds if I drift slightly OT.
> I think the "clunkers" are 4WD vehicles that people drive to
> work everyday, maybe racking up 10,000 miles a year, and wasting
> lots of gas idling on the freeways.
> As a retired old fart, I still drive my 1995 Ford E150 van, but
> only on over the road excursions - maybe 5000 miles/year. I don't
> check gas mileage, but the last time I did, I was towing a boat,
> with a tail wind, and got 16 MPG. No "clunkers" at my house!
>
> Dick
> 84 Capri RS 5.0



Ads
  #12  
Old August 5th 09, 06:45 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Dick R.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default Cash for clunkers? - Jim

Jim Warman wrote:
<snip>
>
> Dick... in case you hadn't noticed.... ANYTHING idling on the freeway is
> wasting gas...
>

Hey Jim, I totally agree. Back in my working days, I drove my newest car,
a 1998 Escort, 10,000 miles per year, and still wasted a lot of gas idling
on the freeway. Those days are only a memory now, and if I absolutely have
to drive on a freeway, I'll pick the "off peak" hours.

Dick
  #13  
Old August 5th 09, 08:07 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Frank ess
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 971
Default Cash for clunkers?



Jim Warman wrote:
> Some of us drive those things we want to drive.... others drive
> those things we can afford to drive.... some folks even decide that
> they will do more than their fair share to reduce the load on our
> environment and spend the extra coin for a hybrid. Or should the
> whole world start driving old Mustangs ranging from painstakingly
> maintained to clapped out pieces of crap that only an owner could
> love....
> The cash for clunkers program is a way to try stimulating the US
> economy... while attempts at spending your way out of debt need to
> be considered carefully, I'm not really surprised that all the
> critics are not suggesting alternatives... We can just let the
> economy collapse and all of us can be on welfare is the thought
> process I am seeing.
> My 4X4 is likely cleaner than most of the modified vehicles
> represented here... and there is every chjance that, unloaded, I am
> spending less money to go further thana lot of you stop light
> Adrettis...
>
> Both of our governments are busy trying to stimulate research into
> alternate fuel sources - this would hopefully ease the burden on
> our ecosystem.
> Reducing fuel consumption (at the cost of our atmosphere) is a fools
> errand... or should the government divert funding from alternate
> fuels and direct it, instead, to developing alternate sources of
> **** we can breathe?
> Dick... in case you hadn't noticed.... ANYTHING idling on the
> freeway is wasting gas...
>
>


If I read you correctly, you're saying we shouldn't all be tarred with
the same brush. I suppose you won't mind if I point out that you might
want to make that same kind of concession to the members of this
group.

"Stoplight Andrettis"? How about "Self-impressed, self-righteous
bloviators"? Suit you? I'd think not.

--
Frank ess

  #14  
Old August 6th 09, 01:41 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
dwight[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Cash for clunkers? - Jim


"Dick R." > wrote in message
. ..
> Jim Warman wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Dick... in case you hadn't noticed.... ANYTHING idling on the freeway is
>> wasting gas...
>>

> Hey Jim, I totally agree. Back in my working days, I drove my newest car,
> a 1998 Escort, 10,000 miles per year, and still wasted a lot of gas idling
> on the freeway. Those days are only a memory now, and if I absolutely have
> to drive on a freeway, I'll pick the "off peak" hours.
>
> Dick


I'll know that we're serious about fuel economy, when we can synchronize
lights so that I don't have to stop and wait at three red lights in a row in
a three block stretch of roadway.

dwight


  #15  
Old August 8th 09, 06:02 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Cash for clunkers?

On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:38:21 -0500, "Dick R." > wrote:

>Anyone here want to trade in their "gas guzzling" Mustang
>or any other vehicle for a new ... Toyota or another mundane
>vehicle? I didn't think so. As I understand it, the vehicles
>that are traded in have to be destroyed. Personally, it seems
>like a stupid program, but who am I to say.
>
>Dick
>84 Capri RS 5.0 that gets 25 mpg on the highway (5th gear
>at 1800 RPM).


Cash for clunkers?
1. Rich people can afford a new car and the fuel. People who drive
clunkers normally can't afford a new car.... soooooo....

Lts give a $4500 credit to a person who couldn't afford the payments
on a new car, so they'll buy one, and still not be able to make the
payments.

(Gee, that sounds like the idea Clinton pushed on the banks to make
more loans to low income families and illegal aliens so they could
share in the Amwerican dream of home ownership.)

Next, we'll pay $7000 to any dealer who uses one of the credits.

So, the dealer gets a $7000 cash payment while the buyer only gets a
$4500 credit.

Then, we'll make it better. We won't limit to American companies the
goverment just took over. The result? Of those people getting those
new cars, 4 out of 5 are made in Japan. That REALLY goes a long way
toward increasing jobs for Americans. And it sends the money outside
the country which is great for the economy.

Yes, folks. The inmates ARE in charge of the asylum.

If someone intentionally set out to bancrupt America, they couldn't do
a better job than this administration is tryin to do.
  #16  
Old August 8th 09, 10:16 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,430
Default Cash for clunkers?

On 2009-08-08, et > wrote:
> 1. Rich people can afford a new car and the fuel. People who drive
> clunkers normally can't afford a new car.... soooooo....
>
> Lts give a $4500 credit to a person who couldn't afford the payments
> on a new car, so they'll buy one, and still not be able to make the
> payments.


> (Gee, that sounds like the idea Clinton pushed on the banks to make
> more loans to low income families and illegal aliens so they could
> share in the Amwerican dream of home ownership.)


That's Keynesian economics. It made the great depression great.

> Next, we'll pay $7000 to any dealer who uses one of the credits.
>
> So, the dealer gets a $7000 cash payment while the buyer only gets a
> $4500 credit.


They got good lobbists.

> Then, we'll make it better. We won't limit to American companies the
> goverment just took over. The result? Of those people getting those
> new cars, 4 out of 5 are made in Japan. That REALLY goes a long way
> toward increasing jobs for Americans. And it sends the money outside
> the country which is great for the economy.


Made by a japanese company, but a big percentage of the actual vehicles
are assembled in the USA. Lots of the parts come from US suppliers too.
So it's not quite that bad.

> Yes, folks. The inmates ARE in charge of the asylum.


They have been for decades.

> If someone intentionally set out to bancrupt America, they couldn't do
> a better job than this administration is tryin to do.


that's because they are. In the end the people who own the majority of
elected federal office holders will have almost all the wealth of the
nation. It's not enough to be wealthy, everyone else has to be poor.



  #17  
Old August 9th 09, 03:04 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
dwight[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Cash for clunkers?


> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:38:21 -0500, "Dick R." > wrote:
>
>>Anyone here want to trade in their "gas guzzling" Mustang
>>or any other vehicle for a new ... Toyota or another mundane
>>vehicle? I didn't think so. As I understand it, the vehicles
>>that are traded in have to be destroyed. Personally, it seems
>>like a stupid program, but who am I to say.
>>
>>Dick
>>84 Capri RS 5.0 that gets 25 mpg on the highway (5th gear
>>at 1800 RPM).

>
> Cash for clunkers?
> 1. Rich people can afford a new car and the fuel. People who drive
> clunkers normally can't afford a new car.... soooooo....
>
> Lts give a $4500 credit to a person who couldn't afford the payments
> on a new car, so they'll buy one, and still not be able to make the
> payments.
>
> (Gee, that sounds like the idea Clinton pushed on the banks to make
> more loans to low income families and illegal aliens so they could
> share in the Amwerican dream of home ownership.)
>
> Next, we'll pay $7000 to any dealer who uses one of the credits.
>
> So, the dealer gets a $7000 cash payment while the buyer only gets a
> $4500 credit.
>
> Then, we'll make it better. We won't limit to American companies the
> goverment just took over. The result? Of those people getting those
> new cars, 4 out of 5 are made in Japan. That REALLY goes a long way
> toward increasing jobs for Americans. And it sends the money outside
> the country which is great for the economy.
>
> Yes, folks. The inmates ARE in charge of the asylum.
>
> If someone intentionally set out to bancrupt America, they couldn't do
> a better job than this administration is tryin to do.


This is typical crap that gets spewed around as if it were fact.

First, it assumes that everyone is a drooling moron except "us smart guys."
Yes, I'm sure that there are SOME out there who will buy a car they maybe
can't really afford. But I'd venture to bet $1.00 that the vast majority of
new car buyers are the same people just like us, who know how to manage
their finances within reason and make car payments on a timely basis.

Second, it contains flat-out false information to make a rather nice program
sound like a disaster.

Here are some interesting actual numbers:
Over half (55%) of cars purchased under this program are foreign brands.
That means that 45% are American brands, with another healthy percentage
being foreign brands that are at least assembled in the U.S.A.

The big winners under this program are (here's a shock):
GM 18.7%
Toyota 17.9%
Ford 16%
Honda 11.6%
Chrysler 10.6%, etc.

83% of trade-ins have been trucks. That is amazing, in itself. All of the
top 10 trade-ins have been Detroit models, Ford Exporer sitting firmly at
No. 1.

This helps the automakers, helps the dealers, helps a lot of Americans get
into new, more efficient vehicles. And it now uses moneys that were already
allocated for another purpose to help out the automakers. If you ask me,
this is a better use for that money.

dwight
(really wish I had a use for this program, myself, but I still can't see
either of my Mustangs getting crushed for a lousy $4,500)


  #18  
Old August 10th 09, 05:02 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,430
Default Cash for clunkers?

On 2009-08-09, dwight > wrote:

> Second, it contains flat-out false information to make a rather nice program
> sound like a disaster.


It is a disaster. It's theft from one group of people (those who aren't
buying cars the federal government approves of or already own cars the
federal government approves of) to people who are buying new cars that
the federal government approves and are getting rid of cars the federal
government doesn't approve of.

The government doesn't have money of it's own. It either A) takes it
from people directly by taxation. This means the people who pay the
taxes don't have the money to spend on things. Instead it went to
automobiles. B) It prints money. This steals it from people who have
savings in USD by devaluing the dollars they hold. C) It borrows the
money, which depletes money to make loans for other purposes. It also
has to be paid back, with interest, by the means of A and/or B.

Meanwhile as older vehicles are destroyed this raises the prices of the
remaining used cars. This hurts the people who cannot afford to buy new
vehicles. Also it's resource wasteful. A lot of resources went into
building those vehicles and now they are being destroyed for the sake of
destroying them.




  #19  
Old August 10th 09, 12:04 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
dwight[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Cash for clunkers?


"Brent" > wrote in message
...
> On 2009-08-09, dwight > wrote:
>
>> Second, it contains flat-out false information to make a rather nice
>> program
>> sound like a disaster.

>
> It is a disaster. It's theft from one group of people (those who aren't
> buying cars the federal government approves of or already own cars the
> federal government approves of) to people who are buying new cars that
> the federal government approves and are getting rid of cars the federal
> government doesn't approve of.
>
> The government doesn't have money of it's own. It either A) takes it
> from people directly by taxation. This means the people who pay the
> taxes don't have the money to spend on things. Instead it went to
> automobiles. B) It prints money. This steals it from people who have
> savings in USD by devaluing the dollars they hold. C) It borrows the
> money, which depletes money to make loans for other purposes. It also
> has to be paid back, with interest, by the means of A and/or B.
>
> Meanwhile as older vehicles are destroyed this raises the prices of the
> remaining used cars. This hurts the people who cannot afford to buy new
> vehicles. Also it's resource wasteful. A lot of resources went into
> building those vehicles and now they are being destroyed for the sake of
> destroying them.


If you don't like paying taxes, just say so. If you don't approve of certain
government programs, just say so. What bugs me is the dissemination of
garbage as fact.

Taxes are always and have always been about taking money from one group and
giving it to another. There is nothing new there.

And, finally, no one is forcing anyone to trade in a car. This is not a
mandatory program.

dwight


  #20  
Old August 10th 09, 01:36 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,430
Default Cash for clunkers?

On 2009-08-10, dwight > wrote:
>
> "Brent" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2009-08-09, dwight > wrote:
>>
>>> Second, it contains flat-out false information to make a rather nice
>>> program
>>> sound like a disaster.

>>
>> It is a disaster. It's theft from one group of people (those who aren't
>> buying cars the federal government approves of or already own cars the
>> federal government approves of) to people who are buying new cars that
>> the federal government approves and are getting rid of cars the federal
>> government doesn't approve of.
>>
>> The government doesn't have money of it's own. It either A) takes it
>> from people directly by taxation. This means the people who pay the
>> taxes don't have the money to spend on things. Instead it went to
>> automobiles. B) It prints money. This steals it from people who have
>> savings in USD by devaluing the dollars they hold. C) It borrows the
>> money, which depletes money to make loans for other purposes. It also
>> has to be paid back, with interest, by the means of A and/or B.
>>
>> Meanwhile as older vehicles are destroyed this raises the prices of the
>> remaining used cars. This hurts the people who cannot afford to buy new
>> vehicles. Also it's resource wasteful. A lot of resources went into
>> building those vehicles and now they are being destroyed for the sake of
>> destroying them.

>
> If you don't like paying taxes, just say so.


*sigh* not that crap again.

> If you don't approve of certain
> government programs, just say so. What bugs me is the dissemination of
> garbage as fact.


I'm talking basic economics. Although the kind that isn't approved of by
government because it unmasks what they do. They take from one group and
pay those that buy influence.

> Taxes are always and have always been about taking money from one group and
> giving it to another. There is nothing new there.


And you're just fine with that? There is the seen and the unseen. These
government interventions cause harm and dislocations in the economy.
This current bust is a direct result of government and central bank
intervention in the economy, these idiots doing more isn't going to make
things better.

This program doesn't help overall. It's just the usual smoke and
mirrors. There is the seen and the unseen. The unseen is what isn't done
because of government interference. So a bunch of people get new cars.
Now what about the businesses that suffered because people's money was
diverted into buying other people new cars? What of the money that
people would have spent on something else had there not been this
program to encourage them to buy a new car instead? What of the
money to loan that was instead drained from savings to buy new
vehicles as encouraged by this program? What of those businesses that
now have less business? What of those jobs? What of those who now can't
get a loan because the available money to loan was depleted?

In the 1930s FDR did something to keep prices up. Crops were burned and
livestock destroyed. It kept prices up and people starved instead. What
is happening to used cars? Prices are going up and the poor are just
going to have to do without. Maybe the government could buy homes and
burn them down to keep prices up.

> And, finally, no one is forcing anyone to trade in a car. This is not a
> mandatory program.


The money is still being taken from the productive people to support
those with influence. Not participating only means being on the paying
end but not the reciving end.

 




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