Seattle to Minnesota - at Thanksgiving

223rem wrote:
> Arif Khokar wrote:
>
> > That's why you don't go that much over the limit when there's no visible
> > traffic ahead of you.
>
> The problem is that the vast majority of vehicles do <= SL+10. If
> you're
> doing SL+20, you're an easily noticeable outlier, and an experienced
> trooper may save the instant-on radar puls for such outliers, and leave
>
> the cars doing SL+10 alone. Maybe I'm paranoid, 'cause I got 2 tickets
> within 6 months, both laser.

Obviously you're not talking about I-95; SL+15 seems to be the norm.
SL+20 or more is not unusual, despite the fact that that can get you a
"reckless" ticket in VA for merely keeping with the flow of traffic in
the passing lane. It's not entirely uncommon to see a long, long line
of traffic going 75+ in a 55 on I-95 through VA.

nate

N8N wrote:
> 223rem wrote:

> Obviously you're not talking about I-95; SL+15 seems to be the norm.
> SL+20 or more is not unusual, despite the fact that that can get you a
> "reckless" ticket in VA for merely keeping with the flow of traffic in
> the passing lane. It's not entirely uncommon to see a long, long line
> of traffic going 75+ in a 55 on I-95 through VA.

SL + 10 seems the norm for the vast majority of vehicles in IN, IL, OH,
KY.
Maybe speed enforcement is stricter in the Midwest?

Whenever I drove in the South, it was at the height of the summer
vacation,
and congestion was horrible (I-95 in SC was bumper-to-bumper in both
lanes
for example) so speeding for long periods of time was not a possibility.

Andrew Tompkins wrote:
> Scott O. Kuznicki wrote:
> > I'm contemplating driving to Minnesota and back for Thanksgiving.
> > The quickest route is I-90 to US 212 to US 85 to I-90 to US 63 to
> > US 52. The total distance will be 300+70+510+200+10+406+218+40 ~
> > 1760 miles.
> >
> > I plan to do the first 670 miles to Bozeman, MT, in an afternoon
> > (about 9 hours) with the last 1100 miles in a day (about 14 hours).
> >
>
> I would suggest adding an additional day for this trip. I highly
> doubt that you will be able to maintain an 80 MPH average speed under
> winter conditions, particularly in the mountains. Some of the high
> country sections will often have chain requirements that will
> seriously slow you down.
>
> >
> > US 212 is 210 miles; I-90 is 260 miles. Assuming minimal speed
> > enforcement, US 212 will far and away be faster; however two
> > mountain passes are signed for chains (west of Busby and west of
> > Ashland).
> >
> > There are four major mountain passes on I-90: Snoqualmie (3022',
> > WA), Lookout (4725', ID/MT), Homestake (6375', MT), and Bozeman
> > (5760', MT).
> >
> > How likely is it that the route will be impassable? What are the
> > roadway conditions generally like in late November? Will US 212
> > suffer from a lack of winter maintenance that would make it make it
> > much less desirable than using I-90 through Wyoming?
> >
>
> Chances are, the biggest problem you will have weather-wise will be
> close to home. Snoqualmie Pass usually closes several time per winter
> due to snowfall or avalanche. During these events, I-90 will usually
> be closed during and immediately after the event. They will usually
> have at least one lane open each way by the next day.
>
> Generally, east of there, the main problem is wind driven snow,
> particularly on the plains where they will close long sections of
> highway with high enough winds (if you get out of town and have
> trouble, they won't come after you until the weather situation eases).
> You can still see heavy snow at each mountain range but usually the
> Cascades will suck most of the moisture out of the storms.
>
> >
> > There's already snow in the mountains, of course, and all these
> > passes have a potential for snow, but I'm guessing the I-90 route
> > has to be better than taking I-82/84 to I-80 and then back up and
> > certainly less troublesome than I-70, which traverses much higher
> > passes in Colorado. I'm also betting on it against I-94, simply
> > because it's colder in North Dakota . . .
> >
>
> Generally, I would agree with you on I-80 and I-70. I-94 isn't that
> much colder than I-90 (usually not more than 10 degrees). I one is
> going to be sitting in the range of 28-32 degrees (most likely to get
> ice) for a significant amount of time, go the other way. ND usually
> gets its first cold snap/blizzard in November. It can also regularly
> see temps in the 40's throughout the winter.
>
> >
> > The return trip will be easier, since it can be done in two 12-hour
> > days with a stay in Buffalo, WY, or Sheridan, WY.
> >
>
> Again, if you can do it in 2 days, great. Don't be suprised if you
> end up spending a night in western SD/ND and another in Missoula, C'dA
> or Spokane.
>
> --
> --Andy
> --------------------------------------------------
> Andrew G. Tompkins
> Software Engineer
> Beaverton, OR
> http://home.comcast.net/~andytom/Highways
> --------------------------------------------------

Something that has not been mentioned so far. That trip is scheduled
for Thanksgiving. One of the heaviest holidays for traffic. Even
someone willing to volunteer for revenue (tickets) will have a hard
time driving much over SL+10 due to congestion. Just Snoqualamie alone
will hold his speed to around 70. I have driven that both directions
in the middle of a week on non-holiday periods. It is basically
congested all the way normally. I wouldn't want to drive it on a
holiday.

Harry K

On 26 Sep 2006 07:49:59 -0700, "Harry K" >
wrote:

> > I'm not sure about your usual practice, but 1100 miles is pushing it
> > for 14 hours...I usually figure 16-17. 670 miles in 10 hours in that
> > area is a good rule of thumb. My usual calculation is posted speed
> > minus 10 mph (or roughly 60 mph average) allowing for stops and/or
> > hazards.

Good point. 48 mph is my figured average for two-lane rural roads
with medium traffic. On congested interstates (I-65, I-80, etc) I
expect to make 66-70 mph average, with speed not exceeding 75 to 78
mph. And that is precisely what I've done during all the one-day
return trips from Columbia, SC, to Chicago, IL, that I've made in the
last three years. Out west, light traffic and improved geometrics
make higher speeds easily obtainable.

> Agree. 970 miles in 9 hrs requires 74 mph average.
> 1100 in 14 requires 78 mpg

78 mpg? That would be awesome. I got just shy of 26 mpg this last
summer during my latest Festival of Speed.

> This would require doing around 100 mph to allow for traffic delays,
> refuel stops etc.

No. Two hours of stops on the 14-hour transit requires 92 mph. With
no work zones and minimal traffic delays, I expect only one hour of
stops (2 15-minute fuel/food stops and 3 10-minute rest stops) and an
average of 84 mph (cruising speed of 90 mph).

> Planning a trip with an average over 9 or 14 hours in the mid 70s is
> not realistic.

Perhaps for you and perhaps in the East, but I've done it. On my trip
to MT from western MN this summer, I used US 12, I-94, and I-90 and
was able to average 100 mph for two separate hours, one on US 12 (in
west-central SD and ND) and one on I-94 (milepost 140 to 40). I-94
worked only because I saw two troopers immediately upon entering; US
12 because it was empty.

The 875 miles I drove that day were put down in 11 hours TOTAL, with
75% of the driving on two-lane roads. My stops for that transit
included about 45 minutes overall and didn't include small towns and
work zones, which only served to lower the average speed. Most of the
time, I had the cruise control set at 90 mph and did not need to alter
that rate, due to light traffic and favorable road conditions. In
states with prima facie speed limits, this is an acceptable practice.

Perhaps it is a mistake to assume ideal conditions for high-speed
travel during winter (in excess of 85 mph), especially along I-90 in
mountain passes and in the more-likely-enforced areas, such as MN and
SD. However, I have to make an assumption of good roads, since the
"bad" is a sliding scale over distance and average speed effects. On
the contrary, on a blizzard-conditions drive from St Louis to Chicago
in January 2006, I was able to average 70 mph (two cops attempted to
give chase from median crossovers, but could not accelerate quickly
enough), because I was attentive and driving a properly-equipped
vehicle that I know how to handle.

What I'm hearing from other posters is that, even when mountain passes
are open, average speeds will be lower than summertime conditions. If
that is consistently the case, it will have to be a factor in
calculations.

In other news, I'm looking into Amtrak to St. Paul. Do you think I
have a death wish? :-)

--
Scott O. Kuznicki, P.E.
Civil (Traffic) Engineer
Dedicated Highway Enthusiast
Driving Enthusiast:
'03 525i 5-speed
'90 Ninja 250R (cheap fun!)

On 26 Sep 2006 08:56:41 -0700, "223rem" > wrote:

> > I plan to do the first 670 miles to Bozeman, MT, in an afternoon
> > (about 9 hours) with the last 1100 miles in a day (about 14 hours).
>
> Wow. Do you base these projections on experience? Because in my
> experience
> they're completely unrealistic. On such long distances an average speed
> of 70 mph would be a great achievement.

Yes, they are based on experience, in ideal conditions, which I had
this summer. See my other post in this thread for details.

--
Scott O. Kuznicki, P.E.
Civil (Traffic) Engineer
Dedicated Highway Enthusiast
Driving Enthusiast:
'03 525i 5-speed
'90 Ninja 250R (cheap fun!)

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:01:21 -0700, Robert Cruickshank
> wrote:

> I've not driven east of Snoqualmie Pass during the late fall or winter
> months. But, I do know that beginning in November, eastern Washington
> gets a regular dose of snow, and at minimum, ice. What seems likely is
> that you'll not find the roads impassable, but you'll have to drive more
> slowly, messing up your planned schedule. Your trek to Bozeman might
> take significantly longer than 9 hours, for example.

Snoqualmie is the wild card in most drives over the Cascades. Even
with four lanes uphill, trucks can (and often do) occupy three right
lanes, while slow-moving drivers feel they can sit in the left lane
and pace powerful mid-size heavy trucks and vehicles with light
trailers. It's very dangerous to have slow vehicles camping out in
the left two lanes like they do, but with due concentration, it isn't
too difficult to carefully slalom through the mess and maintain a
respectable average somewhere in the mid-60's.

Have you ever been nailed around EXIT 18 in Issaquah? WSP runs aerial
patrols there and picked my motorbike out of the crowd about four
weeks ago. $153 for 80/60 and they claim they have video, which I
want!

--
Scott O. Kuznicki, P.E.
Civil (Traffic) Engineer
Dedicated Highway Enthusiast
Driving Enthusiast:
'03 525i 5-speed
'90 Ninja 250R (cheap fun!)

223rem wrote:
> SL + 10 seems the norm for the vast majority of vehicles in IN, IL, OH,
> KY.
> Maybe speed enforcement is stricter in the Midwest?

No, most of the Midwest doesn't have ridiculously low SL to begin with
- only somewhat low. (I-294 excepted) 70+10 < 55+20.

> Have you ever been nailed around EXIT 18 in Issaquah? WSP runs aerial
> patrols there and picked my motorbike out of the crowd about four
> weeks ago. $153 for 80/60 and they claim they have video, which I
> want!
>
> --
> Scott O. Kuznicki, P.E.
> Civil (Traffic) Engineer

If you get it, can you post it somewhere, with a link here, so we all can
see it? Please? -Dave

> If I'd have hit traffic anywhere, that
> might have sunk my average speed quite a bit.

Or a long stretch of even moderate and very manageable snow, which
slows you down and also makes for higher-workload driving, which in
turn often leads to an early bedtime.

And that's assuming people up ahead of you don't wipe out, locking
things up for miles and miles in conditions that would've been
eminently driveable with decent tires and moderate speed and good
common sense. I once got caught in no more than a middling snowstorm
around Flagstaff on a busy travel holiday and spent the next two hours
or so enduring something much like an especially bad big-city commute.

You can see then how watching the weather forecasts and allowing
yourself some flexibility in departure time/date, and Plan B stops
along the way, can spare you a transient bit of nastiness. I knew a
front was coming, and how people with bald tires or bad skills tend to
react to snow up there over the top, and had I left home three hours
earlier as planned I'd have missed it clean -- but I fell victim to
just one more thing before I leave-itis and waltzed right into it. I
had plenty of time to ponder the dumbbell in the mirror before the
traffic finally broke free on the downgrade off the Mogollon Rim, lemme
tell ya...

Enjoy your trip,
--Joe

PS. As others have advised, it's better to spend trunk space on winter
survival gear and not need it, than to be stuck out there in the high
lonesome visualizing the part of the basement it's in!

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:05:09 -0400, "Mike T." > wrote:

> > Have you ever been nailed around EXIT 18 in Issaquah? WSP runs aerial
> > patrols there and picked my motorbike out of the crowd about four
> > weeks ago. $153 for 80/60 and they claim they have video, which I
> > want!
>
> If you get it, can you post it somewhere, with a link here, so we all can
> see it? Please? -Dave

In order to obtain the last State Police video I subpoenaed, I had to
agree not to duplicate or otherwise distribute it in any form. I'm
assuming most agencies have that restriction.

"Please?" You sound almost too eager . . . it's not like he
pistol-whipped me or something. At least not on camera.

--
Scott O. Kuznicki, P.E.
Civil (Traffic) Engineer
Dedicated Highway Enthusiast
Driving Enthusiast:
'03 525i 5-speed
'90 Ninja 250R (cheap fun!)