Timing belt, toyota,

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 16:31:15 -0500, Jessica Hill wrote:

> Follow up : went to dealer: for $285 parts and labor they will replace
> belt. "If" water pump looks bad dealer will advise me and bill will go
> up to $650. (we don't automatically replace water pump or push it
> unless its really needed)
>
> The independent shop said always replace water pump and they will charge
> $650. (If you want we can just slap a belt on and match price)
>
> Big difference in price to replace a part thats not needed just to be
> cautious or run up the bill. What goes wrong with water pump? seals
> leak or impeller wear out or what? Since most of the labor is already
> been done getting to the belt, seems suspicious that bill more than
> doubles just to stick in a $115 water pump. (which could also be
> defective and leak)


Most places figure if they're going in there anyway, might as well replace
the pump. But the jump from $285 to $650 is outrageous. I bet if you asked
them why the big jump, they'll say one of two things: First, that's what
AllData tells them. I avoid shops that use AllData because for some odd
reason they do this: price out labor for replacing a timing belt. OK, X
hours.

THen, when they price out the water pump, they price out taking the covers
off, loosening the pulley, removing the timing belt, removing the pump and
gasket. Then they price out replacing the pump and gasket, replacing the
timing belt, retightening everything and replacing the covers.

Now, if you replace the timing belt AND replace the water pump, they
charge the HOURLY RATE for replacing the timing belt, AND the HOURLY RATE
for replacing the water pump!!! WTF?!?!?! Go to parts and buy a
timing belt. Tell them you want to replace the water pump and while you're
at it, throw the old belt away and replace it with THIS and hand them the
new belt.


If they say the water pump is a high quality item and will last hundreds
of thousands of miles, aks them "Does that mean the one on there now is an
inferior part?"

On 08/25/2011 04:17 PM, Hachiroku wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 16:31:15 -0500, Jessica Hill wrote:
>
>> Follow up : went to dealer: for $285 parts and labor they will replace
>> belt. "If" water pump looks bad dealer will advise me and bill will go
>> up to $650. (we don't automatically replace water pump or push it
>> unless its really needed)
>>
>> The independent shop said always replace water pump and they will charge
>> $650. (If you want we can just slap a belt on and match price)
>>
>> Big difference in price to replace a part thats not needed just to be
>> cautious or run up the bill. What goes wrong with water pump? seals
>> leak or impeller wear out or what? Since most of the labor is already
>> been done getting to the belt, seems suspicious that bill more than
>> doubles just to stick in a $115 water pump. (which could also be
>> defective and leak)
>
>
> Most places figure if they're going in there anyway, might as well replace
> the pump. But the jump from $285 to $650 is outrageous. I bet if you asked
> them why the big jump, they'll say one of two things: First, that's what
> AllData tells them. I avoid shops that use AllData because for some odd
> reason they do this: price out labor for replacing a timing belt. OK, X
> hours.
>
> THen, when they price out the water pump, they price out taking the covers
> off, loosening the pulley, removing the timing belt, removing the pump and
> gasket. Then they price out replacing the pump and gasket, replacing the
> timing belt, retightening everything and replacing the covers.
>
> Now, if you replace the timing belt AND replace the water pump, they
> charge the HOURLY RATE for replacing the timing belt, AND the HOURLY RATE
> for replacing the water pump!!! WTF?!?!?! Go to parts and buy a
> timing belt. Tell them you want to replace the water pump and while you're
> at it, throw the old belt away and replace it with THIS and hand them the
> new belt.
>
>
> If they say the water pump is a high quality item and will last hundreds
> of thousands of miles, aks them "Does that mean the one on there now is an
> inferior part?"

the habit of always replacing coolant pumps comes from the garbage
detroit uses. imo, it's inappropriate to replace honda or toyota pumps
on the first belt [it's not in the honda maintenance schedule for
instance]. they're usually in great shape, and if the coolant hasn't
been neglected, will last through the life of the second belt.

otoh, if you have cheapo aftermarket or even "brand" like delco, some of
them are utter CARP. i recently took the pump off my toyota when i did
the timing chain, and the delco pump bearing was shot, the seal leaking,
and the individual component quality was appalling. if something of
that standard had been fitted to a motor with a belt, it wouldn't have
lasted the life of the belt, so from that perspective, replacing the
pump will put you in a /worse/ position than keeping the original oem on
there - the aftermarket will fail well before the belt is due.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

>
> Now, if you replace the timing belt AND replace the water pump, they
> charge the HOURLY RATE for replacing the timing belt, AND the HOURLY RATE
> for replacing the water pump!!! WTF?!?!?! Go to *parts and buy a
> timing belt. Tell them you want to replace the water pump and while you're
> at it, throw the old belt away and replace it with THIS and hand them the
> new belt.
>

Only an idiot thief would charge like that and only an idiot customer
would pay that much.
Typically the labor guide lists the r&r timing belt, usually about 3
hours, then there are add-ons...water pump .8 hours, crank seal .6
hours etc
Customers have every right to decline an estimate and go somewhere
else.
HTH,
Ben

> the habit of always replacing coolant pumps comes from the garbage
> detroit uses. *imo, it's inappropriate to replace honda or toyota pumps
> on the first belt [it's not in the honda maintenance schedule for
> instance]. *they're usually in great shape, and if the coolant hasn't
> been neglected, will last through the life of the second belt.
>
In the last 15 years I have replaced the water pump and shaft seals
with every timing belt job.
It makes no sense to me to tear the car that far down and leave old
stuff in.
I have the luxury in this stage of my career to pick and choose my
customers and the jobs I do.
If the customer wants to do a half-assed job or quibble and moan about
prices I happily send them down the road.
Ben

On 08/26/2011 07:49 AM, ben91932 wrote:
>
>> the habit of always replacing coolant pumps comes from the garbage
>> detroit uses. �imo, it's inappropriate to replace honda or toyota pumps
>> on the first belt [it's not in the honda maintenance schedule for
>> instance]. �they're usually in great shape, and if the coolant hasn't
>> been neglected, will last through the life of the second belt.
>>
> In the last 15 years I have replaced the water pump and shaft seals
> with every timing belt job.
> It makes no sense to me to tear the car that far down and leave old
> stuff in.
> I have the luxury in this stage of my career to pick and choose my
> customers and the jobs I do.
> If the customer wants to do a half-assed job or quibble and moan about
> prices I happily send them down the road.
> Ben

sure thing dude, you do what works best for you. and if i was driving
detroit garbage or running cheapo aftermarket, i'd be right there with
you. but i'm not, i'm running oem honda, and i'm telling you, it's in
perfect condition and ok to keep running. there's as much point
preemptively changing it as there is preemptively changing the muffler.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 08/26/2011 08:37 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/26/2011 07:49 AM, ben91932 wrote:
>>
>>> the habit of always replacing coolant pumps comes from the garbage
>>> detroit uses. �imo, it's inappropriate to replace honda or toyota pumps
>>> on the first belt [it's not in the honda maintenance schedule for
>>> instance]. �they're usually in great shape, and if the coolant hasn't
>>> been neglected, will last through the life of the second belt.
>>>
>> In the last 15 years I have replaced the water pump and shaft seals
>> with every timing belt job.
>> It makes no sense to me to tear the car that far down and leave old
>> stuff in.
>> I have the luxury in this stage of my career to pick and choose my
>> customers and the jobs I do.
>> If the customer wants to do a half-assed job or quibble and moan about
>> prices I happily send them down the road.
>> Ben
>
> sure thing dude, you do what works best for you. and if i was driving
> detroit garbage or running cheapo aftermarket, i'd be right there with
> you. but i'm not, i'm running oem honda, and i'm telling you, it's in
> perfect condition and ok to keep running. there's as much point
> preemptively changing it as there is preemptively changing the muffler.
>
>

re-read that, doesn't make much sense unless you know that i'm talking
about my civic on its second belt with the same pump. ~120k miles.
apologies.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 07:43:04 -0700, ben91932 wrote:

>
>>
>> Now, if you replace the timing belt AND replace the water pump, they
>> charge the HOURLY RATE for replacing the timing belt, AND the HOURLY RATE
>> for replacing the water pump!!! WTF?!?!?! Go to Â*parts and buy a
>> timing belt. Tell them you want to replace the water pump and while you're
>> at it, throw the old belt away and replace it with THIS and hand them the
>> new belt.
>>
>
> Only an idiot thief would charge like that and only an idiot customer
> would pay that much.
> Typically the labor guide lists the r&r timing belt, usually about 3
> hours, then there are add-ons...water pump .8 hours, crank seal .6
> hours etc
> Customers have every right to decline an estimate and go somewhere
> else.
> HTH,
> Ben


Of course. But most shops using AllData follow this rule.

I got into an arguement with a service manager one time about this. Wanted
$300 for the timing belt and another $300 for the water pump. But you have
to remove the timing belt to do the water pump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Took it to an independent shop and had it all done for $285.

> re-read that, doesn't make much sense unless you know that i'm talking
> about my civic on its second belt with the same pump. *~120k miles.
> apologies.

There is a huge difference between maintaining your own car and
maintaining numerous cars for customers.
Anyone can scramble their own eggs, but not everyone can be a short-
order cook.
Ben

On 08/29/2011 09:16 AM, ben91932 wrote:
>
>> re-read that, doesn't make much sense unless you know that i'm talking
>> about my civic on its second belt with the same pump. �~120k miles.
>> apologies.
>
> There is a huge difference between maintaining your own car and
> maintaining numerous cars for customers.
> Anyone can scramble their own eggs, but not everyone can be a short-
> order cook.
> Ben

i worked as "a short order cook" for 5 years. thanks for asking. but i
moved on and got more qualified. and i also really **** people off by
insisting on logical analysis and question people who say "this is the
way we do it" without ever having bothered to examine "why".

example: every shop skims the head when they do a head gasket. why?
because

1. it's coming out of the customer's pocket, not theirs,

2. they're afraid of "comebacks" [even though they've never bothered to
correlate longevity results between skimmed and non-skimmed heads.
seriously, i've never met anyone ever who has actually done that math.]

3. they don't bother to understand that what worked for cast iron
/doesn't/ work for aluminum because machining finish results are so
different.

skimming for aluminum heads, unless there's warpage or serious
corrosion, [which it often can't cure anyway] is an anachronistic
malpractice that dramatically shortens the overall life of an engine.
but of course, another failure is not within the tolerance of the
vehicle's owner, thus, the second time the gasket goes, they get rid of
the car, and the shop fortuitously escapes responsibility for their
failure to learn.

to put it another way, just because /some/ heads need skimming, it
doesn't mean they all do. similarly, just because /some/ pumps need
replacement every 50k miles doesn't mean /all/ pumps do. some exhausts
need replacement every 5 years. some last 20. it's completely
illogical to apply the 5 year rule to a 20 year exhaust.

again, this is why a manufacturer like honda states "inspect", not
"replace" for pumps in their service manual. honda's error it seems is
assuming people bother to read and exercise logic. because they're
certainly not going to benefit from a shop bothering to so some
statistical failure analysis when they can just charge a client for a
new component, which of course, they're selling at full retail.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

"ben91932" > wrote in message
...

> re-read that, doesn't make much sense unless you know that i'm talking
> about my civic on its second belt with the same pump. ~120k miles.
> apologies.

There is a huge difference between maintaining your own car and
maintaining numerous cars for customers.
Anyone can scramble their own eggs, but not everyone can be a short-
order cook.
Ben

**********
When they are charging me $100 or more per hour, and using a flat rate
table,
I expect them to work as experts and to use all that flat rate time that is
necessary
to do a professional job.

I hope I just misinterpreted your post.