Ford gets a clue

In article >, dwight wrote:

> Actually, a 2008 Pinto, built with all of the technological advances of the
> past 30+ years, might not be a bad little machine...
> Hatchback would be nice.

I would love to see modern, quality, rear wheel drive sub compacts. Be
they japanese or domestic. Just those early 70s small car 'themes' with
good guts.

(Brent P) wrote in
:

> In article >, dwight
> wrote:
>
>> Actually, a 2008 Pinto, built with all of the technological advances
>> of the past 30+ years, might not be a bad little machine...
>> Hatchback would be nice.
>
> I would love to see modern, quality, rear wheel drive sub compacts. Be
> they japanese or domestic. Just those early 70s small car 'themes'
> with good guts.

The closest things now are the S2000 and Miata. Unfortunately, both are
considered "upscale" now.

Brent P wrote:
> In article >, Michael Johnson wrote:
>
>> As Brent stated, Ford isn't close to the first manufacturer to see the
>> writing on the wall. Look at where most of the day to day stuff we use
>> is manufactured. It isn't here. Our standard of living is the result
>> of utilizing cheap third world labor to manufacture goods for our own
>> consumption.
>
> The problem is, that isn't sustainable. It's great for short term profits
> but eventually you eat your own doing it. The same is true with what the
> UAW did. It was great for them short term to bend the big 3 over when
> they could, but it wasn't sustainable long term.

IMO, we can no longer look at our economy on a vacuum. It is
intertwined with the economies of many other countries with each one
carving out their niches. We aren't the only country going through this
transition in manufacturing bases.... just the first and the furthest
along in the process. Plus there is nothing that is being done now that
can't be reversed. I don't see shifts in manufacturing as a problem.

>> The fact is we don't have the workforce to manufacture all crap we
>> consume.
>
> Actually we could manufacture most of it here, that is if we wanted to
> put our minds to the task. Automation allows one worker in the US to do
> what many do in China.

Automation can't always compete with cheap labor. Why is a requirement
or a good thing to manufacture everything we consume? It isn't
necessary and it isn't good for the global economy.

>> We also don't have a workforce that is willing to do all the
>> tedious, boring and low paying jobs to product all that crap at
>> affordable prices.
>
> False. We don't have a workforce willing to do it at the wage of someone
> in China. People in the US are there to do all sorts of crappy jobs. It's
> not like working in the walmart, target, or home depot putting the crap
> from china on the shelves is a less boring, tedious, and low paying job
> than making the crap would be.

This is just your opinion. The fact is we don't have the manufacturing
workforce to remotely compete with the Chinese. If all the shelf
stockers were making widgets then who would stock the shelves? The Chinese?

>> This is why there is such a demand for illegal immigrant labor.
>
> There is no demand for illegal immigrant labor. Illegal immigrants come
> in and undercut the going wage. If there was a demand for more labor,
> wages would be going up faster than the illegals could get here to fill
> to the jobs. Instead the supply of labor is increasing greater than the
> demand and wages are going down.

Illegal immigrants aren't undercutting anything and there is definitely
a demand for their services. In the construction industry the immigrant
labor (legal and other) is in huge demand. We aren't talking about low
paying jobs either. Many are skilled labor positions like stone masons,
drywall, carpentry, plumbing etc. I got news for you... immigrants work
hard, learn very quickly and do high quality work. If immigrants were
taking jobs from the rest of us then the unemployment rate wouldn't be
in the 4.5% range. Wages aren't going down at all.

>> Automobile manufacturing is going to leave this
>> country as it will leave Japan too. It has happened with many other
>> industries, like cloths manufacturing for instance, and it will happen
>> with many more over time. It is inevitable and evolutionary.
>
> I won't drive some car made in china. Too much experience with the way
> things are done over their to trust my life to something made there.

That is the great thing about a free market economy - you can choose.
Keep in mind that is what many said about Korean cars just 3-5 years
ago. I bet the Chinese can make a very decent car for a fantastic price
and the quality of their cars will increase substantially with ever new
model release. I wouldn't underestimate them.

Brent P wrote:
> In article >, Michael Johnson wrote:
>
>> that control the Big Three's work force. Protectionist policies won't
>> solve any problems, keep jobs here or be good for the consumer. If you
>> want everyone to be on a level playing field then eliminate the UAW.
>
> As I understand it, the foreign makers factories in the USA have rather
> good compensation and benefits packages. Of course there isn't any 'job
> bank' crap, or anything like that, but as jobs go, I haven't heard
> anything bad about it. I could be wrong though. And that's what has
> really rendered the UAW obsolete. At least the perception that the job
> market is much different than in the old days. People aren't being
> treated badly in the non-union factories. Plus, those manufacturers don't
> have that old mentality of the UAW where if you start screwing in
> taillights at age 18, you retire doing that at 65.

This is one place we can agree. The domestic automakers are at a severe
disadvantage when manufacturing in the USA due to the UAW. In some ways
they have no choice but to move manufacturing outside the country. It
is the only way they have to leave the UAW behind. Maybe once the UAW
dries up and blows away they can return and be more competitive.

Brent P wrote:
> In article . com>, Kruse wrote:
>
>> Actually, I've been blasting Ford for moving a lot of their assembly
>> lines and factories to different countries. Is it because domestic
>> labor is too high? Tell that to the foreign manufactures who now have
>> factories in the states.
>
> 1) Everybody else in the US is doing it.
> 2) UAW contracts with all sorts of nonsense that cost Ford a lot of money
> don't apply to the foreign competition.
>


See, I never did understand this. If it's a matter of life or death
for the company, why can't Ford just shut down and tell everyone the
union contracts are now null and void. Anyone who wants a job may have
one for a reasonable and normal salary and reasonable benefits. Bye...
I mean it's not like there is a gun to someones head is there?

We used to have Kroger grocery stores here. The cashiers were paid
at or above all other stores here. They apparently got greedy and when
they couldn't get what they wanted decided to go union. They were
warned. When they voted to bring in the union the day the rep came for
the meeting they closed the store here and moved out of Louisiana. Boom
all the greedy people had no jobs.

--
"One hard rule of sockpuppetry is that a sockpuppet
can't be smarter than its animator."
- Arny Krueger

In article >, Michael Johnson wrote:

> IMO, we can no longer look at our economy on a vacuum. It is
> intertwined with the economies of many other countries with each one
> carving out their niches. We aren't the only country going through this
> transition in manufacturing bases.... just the first and the furthest
> along in the process. Plus there is nothing that is being done now that
> can't be reversed. I don't see shifts in manufacturing as a problem.

If we make nothing, we are nothing. What does the world need us for when
all the knowledge has been transfered to China?

> Automation can't always compete with cheap labor. Why is a requirement
> or a good thing to manufacture everything we consume? It isn't
> necessary and it isn't good for the global economy.

We can never make -everything- but we should make a significant amount of
it. And what that isn't good for is those who'd prefer there wasn't such
a thing as a middle class. That's why people in the US have been placed
in wage competition with those in China.

>> False. We don't have a workforce willing to do it at the wage of someone
>> in China. People in the US are there to do all sorts of crappy jobs. It's
>> not like working in the walmart, target, or home depot putting the crap
>> from china on the shelves is a less boring, tedious, and low paying job
>> than making the crap would be.

> This is just your opinion.

And what is the claim of 'work americans won't do' but your's?

> The fact is we don't have the manufacturing
> workforce to remotely compete with the Chinese. If all the shelf
> stockers were making widgets then who would stock the shelves? The Chinese?

Yet we still have welfare roles, jobless, people who think that raising
the minimum wage will help them from their plight.

>> There is no demand for illegal immigrant labor. Illegal immigrants come
>> in and undercut the going wage. If there was a demand for more labor,
>> wages would be going up faster than the illegals could get here to fill
>> to the jobs. Instead the supply of labor is increasing greater than the
>> demand and wages are going down.

> Illegal immigrants aren't undercutting anything

Bull****. Wages where significant numbers have moved in to do the jobs at
best remain flat as inflation marches on. Most go down.

> and there is definitely a demand for their services.

In the terms of lowest bidder, sure. But there's someone left waiting in
the home depot parking lot that doesn't work.

> In the construction industry the immigrant
> labor (legal and other) is in huge demand. We aren't talking about low
> paying jobs either.

I didn't write low paying, I wrote work for less.

> Many are skilled labor positions like stone masons,
> drywall, carpentry, plumbing etc. I got news for you... immigrants work
> hard, learn very quickly and do high quality work.

Did I say otherwise? No. So you introduce this for what exactly?

> If immigrants were
> taking jobs from the rest of us then the unemployment rate wouldn't be
> in the 4.5% range. Wages aren't going down at all.

Then why hire an illegal alien? Illegal status alone carries a risk, abit
a small one, to the employer. This is reflected in a lower pay rate.

Wages go down when labor supply increases. The reduction of wages due to
illlegal aliens is well documented btw. Unemployment rate doesn't track
reduced wages nor does it track unemployed illegal aliens.

>>> Automobile manufacturing is going to leave this
>>> country as it will leave Japan too. It has happened with many other
>>> industries, like cloths manufacturing for instance, and it will happen
>>> with many more over time. It is inevitable and evolutionary.

>> I won't drive some car made in china. Too much experience with the way
>> things are done over their to trust my life to something made there.

> That is the great thing about a free market economy - you can choose.
> Keep in mind that is what many said about Korean cars just 3-5 years
> ago. I bet the Chinese can make a very decent car for a fantastic price
> and the quality of their cars will increase substantially with ever new
> model release. I wouldn't underestimate them.

Spoken like someone who has never had to have product made over there. If
you knew how many of the parts manufacturers operated, you won't want
your brake calipers coming from china, let alone the engine block. Or the
assembled engine for that matter.

"Michael Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> I have been blasting Ford for abandoning their long time model names
> like the Cougar, Thunderbird and, most of all, the Taurus. Now it
> appears that Alan Mulally (Ford's new CEO) is wondering the same thing I
> have been. This guy might be showing some promise.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/...urus_revived_5

Ha-ha. Read this:
http://tinyurl.com/yqdtx3

Brent P wrote:
> In article >, Michael Johnson wrote:
>
>> IMO, we can no longer look at our economy on a vacuum. It is
>> intertwined with the economies of many other countries with each one
>> carving out their niches. We aren't the only country going through this
>> transition in manufacturing bases.... just the first and the furthest
>> along in the process. Plus there is nothing that is being done now that
>> can't be reversed. I don't see shifts in manufacturing as a problem.
>
> If we make nothing, we are nothing. What does the world need us for when
> all the knowledge has been transfered to China?

We still manufacture plenty of goods. The reality is we have
transitioned into a service economy from and industrial economy. It has
been this way since approximately 1980. It isn't a bad thing it is just
evolution. Other countries are doing the same thing. We were once an
agricultural based economy and then went industrial. I'm sure some
people thought it was the end at that time too.

>> Automation can't always compete with cheap labor. Why is a requirement
>> or a good thing to manufacture everything we consume? It isn't
>> necessary and it isn't good for the global economy.
>
> We can never make -everything- but we should make a significant amount of
> it. And what that isn't good for is those who'd prefer there wasn't such
> a thing as a middle class. That's why people in the US have been placed
> in wage competition with those in China.

We consume far more than any other country on earth. I just can't see
how we can manufacture this quantity of stuff economically. The middle
class is still alive and well here. The work force has to adjust to
changing economic times. Somtimes this adjustment is easy and other
times it is painful. It has always been this way.

>>> False. We don't have a workforce willing to do it at the wage of someone
>>> in China. People in the US are there to do all sorts of crappy jobs. It's
>>> not like working in the walmart, target, or home depot putting the crap
>>> from china on the shelves is a less boring, tedious, and low paying job
>>> than making the crap would be.
>
>> This is just your opinion.
>
> And what is the claim of 'work americans won't do' but your's?

Here are a few jobs: janitorial work, construction labor, migrant farm
labor, fast food positions, garment manufacturing.

>> The fact is we don't have the manufacturing
>> workforce to remotely compete with the Chinese. If all the shelf
>> stockers were making widgets then who would stock the shelves? The Chinese?
>
> Yet we still have welfare roles, jobless, people who think that raising
> the minimum wage will help them from their plight.

The unemployment rate is 4.5%. It can't get much lower.

>>> There is no demand for illegal immigrant labor. Illegal immigrants come
>>> in and undercut the going wage. If there was a demand for more labor,
>>> wages would be going up faster than the illegals could get here to fill
>>> to the jobs. Instead the supply of labor is increasing greater than the
>>> demand and wages are going down.
>
>> Illegal immigrants aren't undercutting anything
>
> Bull****. Wages where significant numbers have moved in to do the jobs at
> best remain flat as inflation marches on. Most go down.

The unemployment rate is 4.5%. If large numbers of American workers are
being displaced then this number would be much higher.

>> and there is definitely a demand for their services.
>
> In the terms of lowest bidder, sure. But there's someone left waiting in
> the home depot parking lot that doesn't work.

Around here if it wasn't for immigrant labor not much would get done.
They get paid minimum wage or what the market will bare. Just like
everyone else. Plus, we don't owe any of them a job.

>> In the construction industry the immigrant
>> labor (legal and other) is in huge demand. We aren't talking about low
>> paying jobs either.
>
> I didn't write low paying, I wrote work for less.

Less than who? If there is no one competing with them except other
immigrants then who exactly is getting hurt?

>> Many are skilled labor positions like stone masons,
>> drywall, carpentry, plumbing etc. I got news for you... immigrants work
>> hard, learn very quickly and do high quality work.
>
> Did I say otherwise? No. So you introduce this for what exactly?

You seem to think they are here undercutting American workers which
isn't true most of the time. They are here doing jobs that Americans
won't do.

>> If immigrants were
>> taking jobs from the rest of us then the unemployment rate wouldn't be
>> in the 4.5% range. Wages aren't going down at all.
>
> Then why hire an illegal alien? Illegal status alone carries a risk, abit
> a small one, to the employer. This is reflected in a lower pay rate.

Do you know what a low unemployment rate means? It is an indicator of
labor shortage. If you can't find a legal to fill a job then you will
hire an illegal. These Mexicans aren't crossing the border to sit on
their asses. They are coming here to work because there are jobs to be
filled.

> Wages go down when labor supply increases. The reduction of wages due to
> illlegal aliens is well documented btw. Unemployment rate doesn't track
> reduced wages nor does it track unemployed illegal aliens.

The unemployment rate is 4.5%. illegals aren't depressing wages. they
are filling a demand. They aren't taking jobs from anyone. If they
were the unemployment rate would increase.

>>>> Automobile manufacturing is going to leave this
>>>> country as it will leave Japan too. It has happened with many other
>>>> industries, like cloths manufacturing for instance, and it will happen
>>>> with many more over time. It is inevitable and evolutionary.
>
>>> I won't drive some car made in china. Too much experience with the way
>>> things are done over their to trust my life to something made there.
>
>> That is the great thing about a free market economy - you can choose.
>> Keep in mind that is what many said about Korean cars just 3-5 years
>> ago. I bet the Chinese can make a very decent car for a fantastic price
>> and the quality of their cars will increase substantially with ever new
>> model release. I wouldn't underestimate them.
>
> Spoken like someone who has never had to have product made over there. If
> you knew how many of the parts manufacturers operated, you won't want
> your brake calipers coming from china, let alone the engine block. Or the
> assembled engine for that matter.

I have many products that were made "over there". The overwhelming
majority work just fine. Funny that your attitude toward China is the
same as many had in the 1950s and 1960s regarding the Japanese. Keep up
the whining and bitching instead of taking them seriously and your
industry will become irrelevant as they run circles around you. I see
history repeating itself and you are going to sit there and let it
happen and blame everyone but yourself for getting beaten by them.

Big Al wrote:
> "Michael Johnson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I have been blasting Ford for abandoning their long time model names
>> like the Cougar, Thunderbird and, most of all, the Taurus. Now it
>> appears that Alan Mulally (Ford's new CEO) is wondering the same thing I
>> have been. This guy might be showing some promise.
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/...urus_revived_5
>
> Ha-ha. Read this:
> http://tinyurl.com/yqdtx3

I am willing to bet they will sell far more Taurus' than 500s even
though they are the same car.

In article >, Michael Johnson wrote:
>
> We still manufacture plenty of goods. The reality is we have
> transitioned into a service economy from and industrial economy. It has
> been this way since approximately 1980. It isn't a bad thing it is just
> evolution. Other countries are doing the same thing. We were once an
> agricultural based economy and then went industrial. I'm sure some
> people thought it was the end at that time too.

If we don't make anything, what good are we to the rest of the world?
What value does our currency have? If we have nothing they want, if we
are a 'service' economy, what good are we?

> We consume far more than any other country on earth. I just can't see
> how we can manufacture this quantity of stuff economically.

We did for a damn long time. Most of the factories aren't closing because
they cannot meet demand, but that profit margins aren't high enough to
satisify wall street.

> The middle class is still alive and well here. The work force has to adjust to
> changing economic times. Somtimes this adjustment is easy and other
> times it is painful. It has always been this way.

Just live on chinese wages and we'll be fine.

> Here are a few jobs: janitorial work, construction labor, migrant farm
> labor, fast food positions, garment manufacturing.

I've seen americans do everything in that list but farm labor. But when
there were still farms around here, in my grandparents day, they did some
of that.

> The unemployment rate is 4.5%. It can't get much lower.

Check how it's calculated some time.

>> Bull****. Wages where significant numbers have moved in to do the jobs at
>> best remain flat as inflation marches on. Most go down.

> The unemployment rate is 4.5%. If large numbers of American workers are
> being displaced then this number would be much higher.

Again, did I state unemployed, and still on the unemployment rolls? No.
You keep trying to change what I wrote to suit an easy counter argument.

>> In the terms of lowest bidder, sure. But there's someone left waiting in
>> the home depot parking lot that doesn't work.

> Around here if it wasn't for immigrant labor not much would get done.
> They get paid minimum wage or what the market will bare. Just like
> everyone else. Plus, we don't owe any of them a job.

Then we are agreed, increased labor supply brings down wages. The market
decides. Flood the market with illegal alien labor and wages drop.


>> I didn't write low paying, I wrote work for less.

> Less than who?

Less than they did before.

> If there is no one competing with them except other
> immigrants then who exactly is getting hurt?

The guy who used to do meat packing for $15/hr who went on to some other
job for $12/hr because meat packing now pays $8/hr because of the illegal
aliens flooding the labor market at the meat packing plant.

> You seem to think they are here undercutting American workers which
> isn't true most of the time. They are here doing jobs that Americans
> won't do.

Americans used to do those jobs. They used to pay enough money for
americans to do them. Now they don't. That's why americans don't do them
any more. It's not that they are 'dirty' or anything else, they just
don't pay enough because the market, filled with illegal aliens on the
labor supply side, doesn't bare the wages it once did.

>>> in the 4.5% range. Wages aren't going down at all.

>> Then why hire an illegal alien? Illegal status alone carries a risk, abit
>> a small one, to the employer. This is reflected in a lower pay rate.

> Do you know what a low unemployment rate means? It is an indicator of
> labor shortage.

It's an indicator of political BS mostly.

> If you can't find a legal to fill a job then you will hire an illegal.

Could just increase the wage so an american would take the job. But why
do that, when mexicans have flooded the labor market and dropped the
price.

>> Wages go down when labor supply increases. The reduction of wages due to
>> illlegal aliens is well documented btw. Unemployment rate doesn't track
>> reduced wages nor does it track unemployed illegal aliens.

> The unemployment rate is 4.5%.

This seems to be your mantra. You don't seem to grasp that it is
irrelevant.

> illegals aren't depressing wages. they are filling a demand. They
> aren't taking jobs from anyone. If they
> were the unemployment rate would increase.

You're not grasping it. Let's say you have a job that pays $20/hr. In
your line of work illegals start coming in willing to work for $15/hr.
Your employer tells you, you can work for $15/hr or take a hike. You find
a job across town doing something else making $18/hr, where illegals
haven't yet saturated because it requires a good english speaker or some
form of experience they don't have. Have you been harmed by illegal
immigration? Are you on the unemployment figures?

>> Spoken like someone who has never had to have product made over there. If
>> you knew how many of the parts manufacturers operated, you won't want
>> your brake calipers coming from china, let alone the engine block. Or the
>> assembled engine for that matter.

> I have many products that were made "over there".

How many did you do the development work on?

> The overwhelming majority work just fine.

Try product development with the stuff made over there sometime, here's a
hint, they don't. But if you're a typical throw it away buy a new one
american, you probably don't even know enough to notice.

> Funny that your attitude toward China is the
> same as many had in the 1950s and 1960s regarding the Japanese.

No, it isn't, and the two are not comparable. And I am tired of ignorant
people trying to say it is the same. Japan was an industrialized nation
long before it started sending product to the US. REmember, we fought a
modern, industrial supported war against them. They started the war with
one of the finest fighter aircraft of the time, of their own design.
Their manufacturing and technology was as well advanced as anyone's at
the outbreak of hostilities. Japan was not a tyranny in the 1950s or
later. Japan didn't use slave labor in the 1950s or later. Japan acted to
protect the environment, there is worker safety in Japan, labor wasn't
really all that cheap either, land and other business costs were
significant. Japan listened to _Americans_ that american companies
wouldn't listen to. They applied those lessons. They developed products
that american companies weren't interested in (VCRs, smaller cars, etc).
Japanese companies competed to make a better product. All of that
combined is their success.

China, on the other hand is just cheap labor. US companies relocate
manufacturing there and try to teach them how to make the products. The
culture in China is to cheat every step of the process to maximize profit
and send crap out the door hoping it would not be noticed. China's
success is cheap labor, little-to-no environmental regulation, no
pressure to meet CO2 targets, no labor safety rules to speak of, and fixed
against the dollar currency.

If you had the least bit of experience with either nation's companies
with regards to developing a product or their histories you would know
better than to say the two are the same.

Japanese companies made better products and won in the market place from
a more or less even footing. American companies move their facilities to
China, putting american workers in wage competition with the chinese
workers. American companies relocate to china and avoid costly
environmental regulations, worker safety rules, and a whole host of other
basics that cost money. It's complete apples to oranges.

> Keep up
> the whining and bitching instead of taking them seriously and your
> industry will become irrelevant as they run circles around you.

You have something made over there and don't watch them. Faster than I
can write this post they'll be overheating a subsitute resin that you
didn't approve and a few months later the field returns will roll in.
That isn't changing any time soon. Actually that's one place there are
some high paying jobs. Babysitting over in China.

> I see
> history repeating itself and you are going to sit there and let it
> happen and blame everyone but yourself for getting beaten by them.

There's nothing I can do to stop an employer moving manufacturing to
China. Nothing. I learned by experience that adding millions of the
dollars to the bottom line isn't even enough, because they'll still think
they save more paying slave wages in China.