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Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 12th 06, 01:52 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say

It seems like every year someone posts a message asking about how to make
their 2WD car make it through the snows of winter, how much snow tires help,
and the discussion veers to the supposed benefits of AWD vs. 2WD (front or
rear) in such conditions. (Somebody trying to justify their purchase of an
SUV, maybe.)

Anyway, so here comes the March 2006 issue of Road & Track, page 71. R&T has
done testing of summer tire, all-season tire, and snow tire equipped cars in
summer/winter conditions. There opinion is credible. Here is what they say
as part of a comparison test of mid-size all-wheel drive sedans:

"Which is better, one of our AWD competitors on all-season tires, or its
front- or rear-drive counterparts on dedicated summer or winter rubber?
Summer is a close call; but winter isn't. All-wheel drive has its benefits,
but not the 28-30 percent offered by dedicated snow tires. And AWD won't
help at all when it comes to stopping in snow. Of course, the best choice
for winter conditions is all-wheel drive and snow tires."

The 28-30% figure comes from comparison testing of all-season and winter
tires on snow - snows are 28-30% better.

I come away pleased from this as it confirms my experience in driving a 2000
Yukon XL AWD with all-seasons and now a '92 LS400 on winter rubber through
Michigan winters. I felt the LS was doing every bit as well and even thought
it might be doing a wee bit better in all but very deep (say, 10") snow, but
the latter seemed counter-intuitive.

Just wanted to make sure this gets into the Google memory banks in time for
next winter.


- GRL


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  #2  
Old February 12th 06, 02:37 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say


"GRL" > wrote in message
...
> It seems like every year someone posts a message asking about how to make
> their 2WD car make it through the snows of winter, how much snow tires
> help, and the discussion veers to the supposed benefits of AWD vs. 2WD
> (front or rear) in such conditions. (Somebody trying to justify their
> purchase of an SUV, maybe.)
>


All things being equal 4WD will be better than FWD will be better than RWD
and snow tyres will do better than regular road tyres.
IMHO essential for any winter driving is ABS, and if you do have a RWD BMW
get one with snow mode on the gearbox.


  #3  
Old February 12th 06, 03:48 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say


"R. Mark Clayton" > wrote in message
...
>
> "GRL" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It seems like every year someone posts a message asking about how to

make
> > their 2WD car make it through the snows of winter, how much snow tires
> > help, and the discussion veers to the supposed benefits of AWD vs. 2WD
> > (front or rear) in such conditions. (Somebody trying to justify their
> > purchase of an SUV, maybe.)
> >

>
> All things being equal 4WD will be better than FWD will be better than RWD
> and snow tyres will do better than regular road tyres.
> IMHO essential for any winter driving is ABS,


IME ABS doesn't help when driving on snow or in very slippery conditions.

and if you do have a RWD BMW
> get one with snow mode on the gearbox.


My BMW has a snow setting, but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, but
theoretically it should be better with it than without.
Mike.

  #4  
Old February 12th 06, 08:37 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say

What is "snow mode"? Some kind of automatic tranny thing where the car
starts in 2nd gear? I just have traction control on our LS400 and
never have any trouble (with snow tires mounted).

I find that the combination of snow tires and traction control on a RWD
car (unless it is ridiculously nose heavy, like say an original
Hemi-Cuda) results in no worries in any amount of snow that your car
can go over and not turn into a plow.

- GRL

R. Mark Clayton wrote:
> "GRL" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It seems like every year someone posts a message asking about how to make
> > their 2WD car make it through the snows of winter, how much snow tires
> > help, and the discussion veers to the supposed benefits of AWD vs. 2WD
> > (front or rear) in such conditions. (Somebody trying to justify their
> > purchase of an SUV, maybe.)
> >

>
> All things being equal 4WD will be better than FWD will be better than RWD
> and snow tyres will do better than regular road tyres.
> IMHO essential for any winter driving is ABS, and if you do have a RWD BMW
> get one with snow mode on the gearbox.


  #5  
Old February 12th 06, 09:36 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-seasontires - what people who have done the tests say

R. Mark Clayton wrote:
> "GRL" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>It seems like every year someone posts a message asking about how to make
>>their 2WD car make it through the snows of winter, how much snow tires
>>help, and the discussion veers to the supposed benefits of AWD vs. 2WD
>>(front or rear) in such conditions. (Somebody trying to justify their
>>purchase of an SUV, maybe.)
>>

>
>
> All things being equal 4WD will be better than FWD will be better than RWD
> and snow tyres will do better than regular road tyres.
> IMHO essential for any winter driving is ABS, and if you do have a RWD BMW
> get one with snow mode on the gearbox.
>
>


Mark, Mark, Mark... we've been through this before.

All things are *never* equal, and that is the real point here.

For one thing, when was the last time you saw a 4WD or AWD vehicle
equipped with *real* winter tires? Where I live (Northern New England)
people with 4WD or AWD just fit them with all-season tires year round.
Why? beats me... but that is exactly what they do. Maybe they figure
(like you) that because the AWD provides superior acceleration in the
snow they will not need them. Well, as GRL's evidence supports, they
are just wrong. Dead wrong. Stupidly dead wrong.

Case in point: It happens to be snowing like gangbusters here today.
10"+ of fresh. The plows (being a Sunday) are not making too much
effort to get things cleared up and not too many people are heading out.
Probably mostly due to the news reports, stirring up paranoia, etc.
Well I needed to get to the pharmacy, so passing up the AWD SUV (It is
my boat hauling machine) equipped with all-season tires and I jumped
into my E36 325i with the Michelin Arctic Alpins mounted. Needless to
say it went through the snow with NO problem whatsoever and I got the
required meds. And yes, I feel much better now ;-)

Of course, on the way I passed some fool in the ditch on the side of the
road being assisted by the local cops and winched out by a tow truck.
Oh yeah... it was one of those cute 4WD mini-SUVs. Want to guess what
kind of tires it had on it?

So that is the point that GRL is making, and the same one I have made
numerous times before. A RWD BMW with Snow tires is better than ANY
other vehicle (FWD, AWD, 4WD, or obviously RWD) with "all-season" tires
on it.

--
-Fred W
  #6  
Old February 12th 06, 09:39 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-seasontires - what people who have done the tests say

Mike G wrote:

> IME ABS doesn't help when driving on snow or in very slippery conditions.
>


My experience is contrary to your. In emergency stopping situations the
ABS works well in snow or slippery conditions. It can be disconcerting
until you get used to how it works, but it does allow the maximum
available braking while still maintaining steerage.

>
>
> My BMW has a snow setting, but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, but
> theoretically it should be better with it than without.
> Mike.
>


Yeah mine does too. It's called 3rd gear (it's a manual trans) ;-)

--
-Fred W
  #7  
Old February 12th 06, 09:44 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-seasontires - what people who have done the tests say

nopcbs wrote:
> What is "snow mode"? Some kind of automatic tranny thing where the car
> starts in 2nd gear?


3rd gear actually.

> I just have traction control on our LS400 and
> never have any trouble (with snow tires mounted).
>
> I find that the combination of snow tires and traction control on a RWD
> car (unless it is ridiculously nose heavy, like say an original
> Hemi-Cuda) results in no worries in any amount of snow that your car
> can go over and not turn into a plow.


I prefer to turn traction control off sometimes and use the gas pedal to
steer the car at times. Much more fun...

--
-Fred W
  #8  
Old February 12th 06, 10:45 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say


"Mike G" > wrote in message news:43ef4ad3$0$9238

>> IMHO essential for any winter driving is ABS,

>
> IME ABS doesn't help when driving on snow or in very slippery conditions.
>


The only conditions where ABS iis counter-indicative is deep fresh snow
(rare) or pebbles.

> and if you do have a RWD BMW
>> get one with snow mode on the gearbox.

>
> My BMW has a snow setting, but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet,
> but
> theoretically it should be better with it than without.


From first hand practical experience it is, although an experienced driver
with a a manual box wuold do quite well by comparison. OTOH even a top rank
rally driver would be likely to better anything but a novice with ABS on wet
/ icy roads.


> Mike.
>



  #9  
Old February 12th 06, 10:52 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw,alt.autos.lexus
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Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say


"Fred W" > wrote in message
news
> R. Mark Clayton wrote:
>> "GRL" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>

>
> Mark, Mark, Mark... we've been through this before.
>
> All things are *never* equal, and that is the real point here.
>
> For one thing, when was the last time you saw a 4WD or AWD vehicle
> equipped with *real* winter tires? Where I live (Northern New England)
> people with 4WD or AWD just fit them with all-season tires year round.

I live in England UK, and fortuitously it snows not a lot.

> Case in point: It happens to be snowing like gangbusters here today. 10"+
> of fresh.


1963 when I lived in Scotland we had maybe -25C & 15cm snow ... worst winter
in my lifetime (in UK), but OTOH no 4WD BMW's then.



Maybe us Brits should duck out of discussions of winter driving in the
colonies...


  #10  
Old February 12th 06, 11:31 PM posted to alt.autos.lexus,alt.autos.bmw
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Posts: n/a
Default Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:52:53 UTC, "GRL" >
wrote:

> It seems like every year someone posts a message asking about how to make
> their 2WD car make it through the snows of winter, how much snow tires help,
> and the discussion veers to the supposed benefits of AWD vs. 2WD (front or
> rear) in such conditions. (Somebody trying to justify their purchase of an
> SUV, maybe.)
>
> Anyway, so here comes the March 2006 issue of Road & Track, page 71. R&T has
> done testing of summer tire, all-season tire, and snow tire equipped cars in
> summer/winter conditions. There opinion is credible. Here is what they say
> as part of a comparison test of mid-size all-wheel drive sedans:
>
> "Which is better, one of our AWD competitors on all-season tires, or its
> front- or rear-drive counterparts on dedicated summer or winter rubber?
> Summer is a close call; but winter isn't. All-wheel drive has its benefits,
> but not the 28-30 percent offered by dedicated snow tires. And AWD won't
> help at all when it comes to stopping in snow. Of course, the best choice
> for winter conditions is all-wheel drive and snow tires."
>
> The 28-30% figure comes from comparison testing of all-season and winter
> tires on snow - snows are 28-30% better.
>
> I come away pleased from this as it confirms my experience in driving a 2000
> Yukon XL AWD with all-seasons and now a '92 LS400 on winter rubber through
> Michigan winters. I felt the LS was doing every bit as well and even thought
> it might be doing a wee bit better in all but very deep (say, 10") snow, but
> the latter seemed counter-intuitive.
>
> Just wanted to make sure this gets into the Google memory banks in time for
> next winter.
>
>
> - GRL
>
>


Well, in my admittedly limited experience with an '02 manual gearbox
IS300, when they tell you that the standard 17" performance tires
should not be used in virtually any kind of snow at all, you ought to
believe them. I've gotten that car stuck in 4 inches of snow, with
clear road less than 3 feet away, and I couldn't even get the car to
move 3 feet until I just got out and shoveled the 3 feet of snow. At
one point I ran 4 dedicated winter tires on it (Blizzak LM22 on 16"
rims), and using the snow settings, turning off traction control, and
working the manual gearbox, I could barely make it through 5 inches of
snow.

I finally gave up, and just kept the performance tires on the IS
year-round. I bought a used 2-door RAV4 with a manual gearbox and
locking center differential, put 4 big-ass snow tires on it, and only
drive it in the snow and when I need to haul dirty cargo, and maybe
once a week just to keep a charge on the battery. I think I put
around 1,000 miles a year on that car, but it's very handy on days
like today. I can easily bulldoze through plowed-up walls of snow
that are 3 feet high and 6 feet wide.

--

 




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