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Oil question What the manual says, vs. what Dad says.



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 19th 04, 12:50 AM
Kirk Kohnen
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Aw. I'm sorry. I set you up.

On the IONs, the battery is already in the trunk...

By the way, do you know where I can get any power steering fluid for my
IONs?

"Mark" > wrote in message
m...
> "Kirk Kohnen" > wrote in message
> >...
>> If I want to do that with my ION, will I have to relocate the battery to
>> the
>> trunk?
>>

>
> Possibly. One of the guys from the www.bobistheoilfilter.com
> newsgroup removed the bumper off his truck and installed one in the
> front of the car. He said it only took 15 minutes to remove and he
> had enough room for BP filters for the engine and transmission. You
> might feel safer to put a bypass filter on the battery mount. You can
> buy relocation kits from Ebay and they are cheaper. Most of those
> have a 20' positive battery cable and a 3' ground cable. I would buy
> an additional cable for the ground. That way installation is alot
> easier and you can attach the negative cable to the fuse box (where
> the battery cable is attached). My brother-in-law, who is a certified
> Saturn mechanic & put in the second engine, said not to use the
> shorter ground because the chassis electrical connection from the
> trunk isn't as clean. Not sure if this is true or not but with 2 20'
> cables you can easily remove the setup in a couple of minutes. Also
> get at least 4 gauge, 2 gauge is preferrable but anything larger may
> make it harder when drilling the two holes in the side of the trunk
> (see below)
>
> The battery relocation was fun. It took a good part of a Saturday
> afternoon during college summer break. You need a large drill bit or
> dremel bit > 1" because the battery cables are pretty thick. Find the
> place where the trunk sheet metal meets the outside and drill there.
> Use rubber grommets for the holes where the cables are routed through
> the trunk - they should be large enough to fit over the battery
> terminals and the plastic insulation stuff I mention below. The sheet
> metal in the side of the trunk a foot away from the gas cap is only
> 1/8" thick on the Saturn. This is the one metal corner that might cut
> into the cable (and short positive to negative). You don't want this
> (lots of sparks!!) so you want the rubber grommets. Be careful with
> these holes; measure the outside diameter of the middle of the rubber
> grommet and match the hole diameter as close as possible. If you have
> a drill bit large enough this is the best solution. Put the rubber
> grommet on the cable before you pull the cable through the hole. You
> need to be careful to strap the cables away from suspension parts. I
> used lots of twist ties and attached a few clamps to the frame under
> the doors. I also used that plastic battery cable wrap stuff that I
> got from Meijers - forget what it is called. You need it because it
> helps protect the cable insulation. Wrap this stuff for the entire
> length of the cable minus the cable ends. It comes in different
> colors and I wrapped the positive cable in red and the 20' ground
> cable in black plastic. If your battery is a side mount terminal you
> might have to drill holes through the side of the plastic battery box
> - takes a couple minutes.
>
>> "Jonnie Santos" > wrote in message
>> news:Nqocd.69282$Lo6.15671@fed1read03...
>> > Thanks for the detailed explanation. Did the cables for the remote
>> > battery go through the cabin or under the car? Hope you get a
>> > bazillion
>> > miles out of your Saturn! (smile)

>
> Thanks for reading! }



Ads
  #22  
Old October 19th 04, 01:58 AM
BANDIT2941
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Default

>Saturns, it is due to the Saturn factory using Hastings piston rings.
>Replace
>> those rings with a different brand and your oil burning will be

>eliminated. For
>> instance, I have Sealed Power rings in my engine now.

>
>How much does that cost? I wouldn't think it would be cost effective once
>you pass 100,000 miles (?)


It probably isn't cost effective past 100k miles. It all depends how much oil
the burning, how much the car is worth, how much money you have, and how much
of the work you can do on your own.
  #23  
Old October 19th 04, 02:07 AM
BANDIT2941
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>> Sorry, but if an engine is burning oil, putting a bypass oil filter on it
>isn't
>> going to help. In SOME cases, it MAY help prevent oil burning from
>> happening(like if you are one who never changes the oil) but if you keep up
>> with your oil changes you are no more likely to have an oil burning problem
>> then if you have a secondary filter.

>
>Would you think that 2k oil change intervals would be enough? This is
>the interval that I performed on my second engine with good ol' Castol
>GTX and it would still burn a quart every 2-3k miles.


Where did I say that regular oil changes would stop oil burning? I didn't. What
I said was, "you are no more likely to have an oil burning problem then if you
have a secondary filter. " Its not the same. If your rings are frozen, a bypass
filter isn't going to fix it. Sorry.

>installed a bypass filter before on your own car? I didn't think so.
>Here's an article of interest:
>http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...c;f=4;t=000387
>. This states that the main causes of engine oil consumption are
>dirty oil, worn engine components and leaks. This suggests that if
>your engine isn't worn out, you can install a bypass filter and it
>will get rid of the dirty oil problem, thus you won't have sticking
>piston rings, metal shavings/soot inbetween the valve and valve seals,
>etc.


Yeah, no **** the main cause of engine oil consumption is worn out engine
components. But all you have to do to prevent excessively dirty oil and worn
engine components is change the oil regularly.

>The nature of the piston ring is that it expands against the
>cylinder for seal between the combustion chamber and the crankcase.


Wow, you know how a piston ring works. The ring in question here, however, is
the oil control ring. I know what causes oil consumption in Saturn engines
because I have taken them apart myself before. I'll take your line. Have you
ever taken your own engine apart to figure out what is wrong with it? Didn't
think so.

> Anyone who can't fix an engine themselves can still
>install a bypass filter in a couple of days and see good results
>without too much money (couple hundred bucks). The benefits that you
>get from the BP filter are cost savings on new oil, filter elements,
>and engine repairs.
>


How are you saving on new oil, filter elements, and engine repairs? Are you
suggesting that your change your oil less regularly now? With the bypass
filter, you now have 2 filters to change, and added cost in oil(how much extra
do you need per change?). PLUS the original "not too much money" couple hundred
bucks.

  #24  
Old October 19th 04, 02:09 AM
BANDIT2941
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Default

>The second engine had 40k miles when it was put in and yes it burned a
>quart every 2-3k miles. AFAIK, all older unmodified Saturns with the
>1.9L burn oil.


As far as you know; is wrong. Not all burn oil.

>I have no evidence that it will STOP burning oil, only that it will
>help greatly reduce the oil burning. I had noticed that the oil
>burning tends to get worse when the oil is dirtier. This makes sense
>to me because the carbon, or soot, deposited in the oil tends to
>absorb heat. When this happens the oil gets hotter and is more prone
>to flashing near the piston rings. Several mechanics (I don't know
>their names) that have posted on the internet say that a few of the
>major problems with the 1.9L are the piston rings tend to get stuck
>and also a few problems with valve seals, and sludge around the timing
>belt.
>


You have no evidence that it will stop it, because it won't. By the way, when
my engine was on its slow descent to its final oil consumption rate of a qt/250
mi before I rebuilt it, it didn't matter how dirty the oil was. It sucked oil,
clean or dry. They tend to do that when the oil control ring is frozen.
  #25  
Old October 19th 04, 02:10 AM
BANDIT2941
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>Aw. I'm sorry. I set you up.
>
>On the IONs, the battery is already in the trunk...
>
>By the way, do you know where I can get any power steering fluid for my
>IONs?


LOL, you're terrible Kirk. Made the poor guy write up a whole tutorial .

Gee, where can you find some power steering fluid?
  #26  
Old October 19th 04, 02:47 AM
Jonnie Santos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Aisle 7 at Kragens right next to the muffler bearings...

....Kirk, we can't take you anywhere.

"Kirk Kohnen" > wrote in message
...
> Aw. I'm sorry. I set you up.
>
> On the IONs, the battery is already in the trunk...
>
> By the way, do you know where I can get any power steering fluid for my
> IONs?
>
> "Mark" > wrote in message
> m...
>> "Kirk Kohnen" > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> If I want to do that with my ION, will I have to relocate the battery to
>>> the
>>> trunk?
>>>

>>
>> Possibly. One of the guys from the www.bobistheoilfilter.com
>> newsgroup removed the bumper off his truck and installed one in the
>> front of the car. He said it only took 15 minutes to remove and he
>> had enough room for BP filters for the engine and transmission. You
>> might feel safer to put a bypass filter on the battery mount. You can
>> buy relocation kits from Ebay and they are cheaper. Most of those
>> have a 20' positive battery cable and a 3' ground cable. I would buy
>> an additional cable for the ground. That way installation is alot
>> easier and you can attach the negative cable to the fuse box (where
>> the battery cable is attached). My brother-in-law, who is a certified
>> Saturn mechanic & put in the second engine, said not to use the
>> shorter ground because the chassis electrical connection from the
>> trunk isn't as clean. Not sure if this is true or not but with 2 20'
>> cables you can easily remove the setup in a couple of minutes. Also
>> get at least 4 gauge, 2 gauge is preferrable but anything larger may
>> make it harder when drilling the two holes in the side of the trunk
>> (see below)
>>
>> The battery relocation was fun. It took a good part of a Saturday
>> afternoon during college summer break. You need a large drill bit or
>> dremel bit > 1" because the battery cables are pretty thick. Find the
>> place where the trunk sheet metal meets the outside and drill there.
>> Use rubber grommets for the holes where the cables are routed through
>> the trunk - they should be large enough to fit over the battery
>> terminals and the plastic insulation stuff I mention below. The sheet
>> metal in the side of the trunk a foot away from the gas cap is only
>> 1/8" thick on the Saturn. This is the one metal corner that might cut
>> into the cable (and short positive to negative). You don't want this
>> (lots of sparks!!) so you want the rubber grommets. Be careful with
>> these holes; measure the outside diameter of the middle of the rubber
>> grommet and match the hole diameter as close as possible. If you have
>> a drill bit large enough this is the best solution. Put the rubber
>> grommet on the cable before you pull the cable through the hole. You
>> need to be careful to strap the cables away from suspension parts. I
>> used lots of twist ties and attached a few clamps to the frame under
>> the doors. I also used that plastic battery cable wrap stuff that I
>> got from Meijers - forget what it is called. You need it because it
>> helps protect the cable insulation. Wrap this stuff for the entire
>> length of the cable minus the cable ends. It comes in different
>> colors and I wrapped the positive cable in red and the 20' ground
>> cable in black plastic. If your battery is a side mount terminal you
>> might have to drill holes through the side of the plastic battery box
>> - takes a couple minutes.
>>
>>> "Jonnie Santos" > wrote in message
>>> news:Nqocd.69282$Lo6.15671@fed1read03...
>>> > Thanks for the detailed explanation. Did the cables for the remote
>>> > battery go through the cabin or under the car? Hope you get a
>>> > bazillion
>>> > miles out of your Saturn! (smile)

>>
>> Thanks for reading! }

>
>



  #27  
Old October 19th 04, 03:14 PM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> Wow, you know how a piston ring works. The ring in question here, however, is
> the oil control ring. I know what causes oil consumption in Saturn engines
> because I have taken them apart myself before. I'll take your line. Have you
> ever taken your own engine apart to figure out what is wrong with it? Didn't
> think so.
>

Replacing the oil rings on the Saturn engine is a great idea and I
am confident that would also fix the oil burning problem. However I
can guarantee 99% of the people on this newsgroup wouldn't know how to
take the engine out of their car, let alone take it apart to replace
oil rings. Plus the investment in time, parts, and tools is alot more
money for most people than a bypass filter installation.

> How are you saving on new oil, filter elements, and engine repairs? Are you
> suggesting that your change your oil less regularly now? With the bypass
> filter, you now have 2 filters to change, and added cost in oil(how much extra
> do you need per change?). PLUS the original "not too much money" couple hundred
> bucks.


Quoting from http://www.afcee.brooks.af.mil/eq/mo...ask=changeoil:
"By keeping the engine oil cleaner, and by removing water entrained in
the oil, bypass filters can extend the useful life of oil and better
protect the engine from damage."
With a bypass filter, the oil can be changed less often. This is
because there is roughly 100x (or more depending on model) the filter
medium in a bypass filter than an OEM spin-on filter and it keeps your
oil perpetually clean. The spin-on filter becomes irrelevant because
the bypass filter gives you an equivalent of 2-2.5 engine flushes
every hour (8-10L/hour oil flow). As long as the anti-drainback
doesn't get old on the OEM filter you can continue to use it. Amsoil,
the maker of the dual remote bypass filter, recommends a spin-on (OEM)
filter change once every year. For Synthetic oil, www.wefilterit.com
recommends 25k change intervals and OEM filter replacements every 12k
miles. With the Frantz, gulf coast, and motorguard filters, the cost
is cheap because they use either bathroom tissue (toilet paper rolls)
or paper towel rolls (about 50 cents per BP element). The length of
extended oil change interval depends on the type of oil you have and
how the car is driven, etc. But in the end you win because it is a
return of investment. The initial costs of the bypass filter are
anywhere between $100-200 depending on if you get a complete kit or
decide to buy a working used filter from Ebay. Each oil change that
you don't need to do saves you at least $10. You also save on engine
repairs. Thus, even if your engine doesn't reduce in oil consumption,
you will still get an ROI. Not so much with a piston ring swap.


http://www.orau.gov/deer/presentatio...ession%203.pdf
http://www.puradyn.com/news/101404_DOE.pdf

The department of energy's ongoing bypass filter study:
http://avt.inel.gov/obp
  #28  
Old October 20th 04, 03:31 AM
BANDIT2941
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> Replacing the oil rings on the Saturn engine is a great idea and I
>am confident that would also fix the oil burning problem. However I
>can guarantee 99% of the people on this newsgroup wouldn't know how to
>take the engine out of their car, let alone take it apart to replace
>oil rings. Plus the investment in time, parts, and tools is alot more
>money for most people than a bypass filter installation.


Yeah, you're right, most don't. And yes, it is a big investment in time, parts,
and tools. BUT, it WILL fix the oil burning. A bypass oil filter WILL NOT
unstick your rings!

>With a bypass filter, the oil can be changed less often. This is
>because there is roughly 100x (or more depending on model) the filter
>medium in a bypass filter than an OEM spin-on filter and it keeps your
>oil perpetually clean. The spin-on filter becomes irrelevant because
>the bypass filter gives you an equivalent of 2-2.5 engine flushes
>every hour (8-10L/hour oil flow). As long as the anti-drainback
>doesn't get old on the OEM filter you can continue to use it. Amsoil,
>the maker of the dual remote bypass filter, recommends a spin-on (OEM)
>filter change once every year. For Synthetic oil, www.wefilterit.com
>recommends 25k change intervals and OEM filter replacements every 12k
>miles.


Thats all well and good. But do you really trust your dino oil to 25k changes?
I believe the polymers would long be broken down due to the stress and heat
cycles, no matter how clean the filter can keep it.

>You also save on engine
>repairs. Thus, even if your engine doesn't reduce in oil consumption,
>you will still get an ROI. Not so much with a piston ring swap.
>


Your right, you won't save any money(ie, ROI) with a piston ring swap. Its not
an investment! Its fixing something broken! You are arguing with me about
something different. You are trying to say that a BP filter will stop oil
burning. I am saying that it will not because it won't unstick your stuck
piston rings(which is the cause of excessive oil burning). Will a BP filter
keep your oil cleaner? Certainly. Will it save on engine repairs? Doubtful
because if you take care of your engine and change the oil regularly, you
aren't going to be any more likely to have catastrophic engine failure then you
are if you have a BP filter. Regular oil changes will keep the oil clean. As
clean as a BP filter? Probably not. But does that tiny tiny tiny extra
clean-ness matter? Doubtful.

How much extra oil do you run with it?
  #29  
Old October 20th 04, 07:30 AM
Ted Azito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

High filtration bypass filters were effective at prolonging engine
life on the old engines with heavy castings that typically wore out
and were rebuildable. Many modern engines with EFI, improved bearing
materials, and the modern filters usually fail ultimately by cracking
or otherwise breaking a block, head, or reciprocating member. This is
because the modern small displacement engine runs at higher mean BMEP,
and is made out of highly designed lost foam castings engineered for
minimum weight. Another interesting fact is that most cars go to the
crusher with the engine still mechanically runnable, having the engine
never been removed from the car and the head or pan never off it.

I now have three OM 617 Benz engines sitting in my garage that I have
bought for a project. One has a completely failed injection pump and
the other two were running but low compression, hence hard cold start,
when their host vehicles were euthanized. Rust-and in one case the
rotted corpse of the 80-year-old owner found inside the car dead for a
week, in July-devalued them to where it "wasn't worth fixing them."
The other two were operated until they wouldn't start without killing
the battery and then were put up for hauloff. I dragged them home,
pulled out everything usable,and hauled them to the scrapper. I sold
the transmissions for core for more than I paid for the cars for what
that's worth.
  #30  
Old October 22nd 04, 02:38 AM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> You have no evidence that it will stop it, because it won't. By the way, when
> my engine was on its slow descent to its final oil consumption rate of a qt/250
> mi before I rebuilt it, it didn't matter how dirty the oil was. It sucked oil,
> clean or dry. They tend to do that when the oil control ring is frozen.


You don't have any proof of this. Your idea of clean oil is oil
that gets dirty withing a few hundred miles of driving. You have not
experienced clean oil, at least not for a relevant amount of time.
Motor oil in a Saturn turns black within only the first 500-1k miles
after an oil change. Plus you have lots of engine deposits that don't
come out with a simple flush or oil change. The only way you will
notice a difference in oil consumption is if you either don't drive it
or install a filter that takes care of the majority of particles that
affect the engine. These particles will also cause the most wear
since they get inbetween moving parts. When oil is dirty, piston
rings expand, valve seals lose their seal. The microscopic clearances
let in oil because oil molecules are thinner than the wear particles.
Just think how many millions of engine revolutions it takes to get
3000 miles out of a car. When the car burns a quart in 3k miles, this
is an eternity for the engine. The microscopic problem with engine
clearances in the end turns into a much larger problem.

Imagine someone is driving 70 MPH on the freeway. For the Saturn,
this is equivalent to about 2800 rpm. It will take you
3000miles/(70mph) = 42.8 hours to get 3k miles. This means that the
number of revolutions that your engine completes in 3k miles is
(2800rpm) * (60min/hour) * (42.8 hours) = 7.19 million revolutions.
This is assuming that the car travels at a constant speed w/o
hills/accelerating.

After putting the Frantz on my Saturn, the motor oil no longer
turns black from all the soot. The oil burning issue is indiscernible
- always stays at the same level on the dipstick. Even after 10k
miles without oil changes I have not found the slightest oil burning.
It also doesn't give the bad oil smell on hard acceleration and during
bumper-to-bumper traffic when the engine is very hot.
 




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