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BMW OBDII codes and connectors



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 10th 09, 09:24 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Yousuf Khan
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Posts: 4
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors

A friend of mine has a 5-series BMW, I think it's a 2000. We were
discussing my laptop-based OBDII/CAN code reader that I use on my own
car, and how useful it was. He said he's wary of buying one, because he
thinks he needs to get one that fits the special BMW round port in the
engine compartment, rather than the standard rectangular port under the
dash. He thinks otherwise it won't be able to read the manufacturer
specific codes in the P1xxx range.

What's the truth on this? I've read a few webpages, but there's nothing
that says anything conclusively. Some pages say that the dash mounted
connector is not really connected to anything on a BMW. Others say that
this would be illegal if this were really the case.

Yousuf Khan
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  #2  
Old April 10th 09, 09:49 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Jeff Strickland
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Posts: 1,481
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors

Plug your laptop into his car and show him what is there.

OBD II should see the mfg specific codes, P1nnn, if they are present.

Your setup will connect to the data port in the passenger compartment that
you use in your car. The OBD II spec says that the data port must be a
common type and in a common location. The problem (one of many) with the OBD
I system was that every automaker had a different way to extract the codes,
and the codes meant different things. The service providers had to go to
several different schools and buy lots of different scan tools, and as a
consequence the diagnostic tools that ought ot save consumers money actually
costed them more because the technicians had to cover huge overhead with
gathering data from all of the different implementations of the system. OBD
II standardized the implementation. In theory -- actual practice,
actually -- the consumer can go out and buy a scan tool and use it on any
post-'96 make and model car or light truck.





"Yousuf Khan" > wrote in message
...
>A friend of mine has a 5-series BMW, I think it's a 2000. We were
>discussing my laptop-based OBDII/CAN code reader that I use on my own car,
>and how useful it was. He said he's wary of buying one, because he thinks
>he needs to get one that fits the special BMW round port in the engine
>compartment, rather than the standard rectangular port under the dash. He
>thinks otherwise it won't be able to read the manufacturer specific codes
>in the P1xxx range.
>
> What's the truth on this? I've read a few webpages, but there's nothing
> that says anything conclusively. Some pages say that the dash mounted
> connector is not really connected to anything on a BMW. Others say that
> this would be illegal if this were really the case.
>
> Yousuf Khan


  #3  
Old April 10th 09, 09:57 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Scott Dorsey
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Posts: 3,914
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors

Jeff Strickland > wrote:
>Plug your laptop into his car and show him what is there.
>
>OBD II should see the mfg specific codes, P1nnn, if they are present.
>
>Your setup will connect to the data port in the passenger compartment that
>you use in your car. The OBD II spec says that the data port must be a
>common type and in a common location. The problem (one of many) with the OBD
>I system was that every automaker had a different way to extract the codes,
>and the codes meant different things. The service providers had to go to
>several different schools and buy lots of different scan tools, and as a
>consequence the diagnostic tools that ought ot save consumers money actually
>costed them more because the technicians had to cover huge overhead with
>gathering data from all of the different implementations of the system. OBD
>II standardized the implementation. In theory -- actual practice,
>actually -- the consumer can go out and buy a scan tool and use it on any
>post-'96 make and model car or light truck.


The problem is that it will ONLY show you the engine codes. And that's
sometimes useful, but it's a tiny fraction of the amount of information
that is there.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #4  
Old April 10th 09, 11:09 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Yousuf Khan
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Posts: 4
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> The problem is that it will ONLY show you the engine codes. And that's
> sometimes useful, but it's a tiny fraction of the amount of information
> that is there.



Are the formats of the non-engine-specific codes different? Will buying
the round BMW plug and attaching it to a laptop be able to display those
non-engine codes?

Yousuf Khan
  #5  
Old April 11th 09, 12:36 AM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Jeff Strickland
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Posts: 1,481
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors


"Yousuf Khan" > wrote in message
...
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> The problem is that it will ONLY show you the engine codes. And that's
>> sometimes useful, but it's a tiny fraction of the amount of information
>> that is there.

>
>
> Are the formats of the non-engine-specific codes different? Will buying
> the round BMW plug and attaching it to a laptop be able to display those
> non-engine codes?
>
> Yousuf Khan



All of these codes should be available through the OBD II connector ...
http://autorepair.about.com/od/obdco..._1996_year.htm




  #6  
Old April 11th 09, 06:24 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Yousuf Khan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors

Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> "Yousuf Khan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> The problem is that it will ONLY show you the engine codes. And that's
>>> sometimes useful, but it's a tiny fraction of the amount of information
>>> that is there.

>>
>>
>> Are the formats of the non-engine-specific codes different? Will
>> buying the round BMW plug and attaching it to a laptop be able to
>> display those non-engine codes?
>>
>> Yousuf Khan

>
>
> All of these codes should be available through the OBD II connector ...
> http://autorepair.about.com/od/obdco..._1996_year.htm


But Scott Dorsey said we won't see all of the possible codes coming out
of the standard OBDII ports. You're saying we will. Which is right?

Yousuf Khan
  #7  
Old April 11th 09, 07:08 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Jeff Strickland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,481
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors


"Yousuf Khan" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>> "Yousuf Khan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> The problem is that it will ONLY show you the engine codes. And that's
>>>> sometimes useful, but it's a tiny fraction of the amount of information
>>>> that is there.
>>>
>>>
>>> Are the formats of the non-engine-specific codes different? Will buying
>>> the round BMW plug and attaching it to a laptop be able to display those
>>> non-engine codes?
>>>
>>> Yousuf Khan

>>
>>
>> All of these codes should be available through the OBD II connector ...
>> http://autorepair.about.com/od/obdco..._1996_year.htm

>
> But Scott Dorsey said we won't see all of the possible codes coming out of
> the standard OBDII ports. You're saying we will. Which is right?
>
> Yousuf Khan



There is program data that the OBD II port will not see, Scott is 100%
correct there.

But if there is OBD II data, the OBD II data port will disclose it. That's
what OBD II is all about. The Check Engine Light (Malfunction Indicator
Light -- MIL -- is the technical term under the OBD II specification) will
come on if any of the codes in the table I gave you is stored. Let me
restate that, there are codes that might not turn on the MIL, but are in the
tables I gave you, the OBD II data port will show them. Any Code that lights
the MIL will be shown at the OBD II Data Port, some codes that are shown at
the data port might not turn on the MIL.

There can be vehicle data that is not OBD II data, and therefore will not be
shown via the OBD II data port. If you were into tweaking the program, you
might be interested in some of this other data. But, if all you wanted was
to figure out why the MIL was on, the data port will tell you why, and will
include the P1nnn codes. All '96 and later vehicles sold in the USA (and
other countries as far as I know, but don't really care much about) will
display the P0nnn codes. These codes are all common among all cars. If the
car has a system that generates a code, the same code will be generated by
all cars. These codes are P0nnn codes. Some cars will not produce a given P0
code because they do not monitor the system -- an example is the After-CAT
O2 Sensor, all cars that have this sensor give the same code, but some cars
do not have the sensor so they simply can not produce the code and nobody
cares.

The P1nnn codes (manufacturer specific, by definition) codes are for systems
that some makers employ. In theory, a BMW specific code would be for a
system that only BMW monitors. The theory breaks down a little bit relative
to these codes though. Example, P1246 and P1260 have different meanings
depending on the maker yet the conditions reported would reasonably be
problematic for all makers and therefore should be a P0nnn code.

Having said that, if you look up a code that appears on your BMW, and the
tables say FORD ONLY, or whatever, then that system described on the table
is not the one that is asking for your attention on your BMW. Or, the tables
are dated, and the code is newly added.

Since you have a PC based scan tool, you should have the latest code lists
available onboard the PC, or via an update that has not been downloaded.
Your PC should give a code along with the text of the problem, P0nnn -
FRAMIS VALVE MALFUNCTION. If the Framis Valve is monitored by a P1nnn code,
it should still be displayed on the OBD II data port.

The whole point of OBD II is that repair centers were fleecing consumers
under the OBD I system because they were charging lots of money to simply
pull the codes. The rationale they used was that the codes were some sort of
secret that required specialized training and unique and costly equipment.
To the extent that the automaker's schemes to get the codes was different
among different makers, and sometimes different among the same maker but
different models -- a Thunderbird might display its codes differently than
an F150, for example -- the repair shops had a valid claim to your money.

OBD II is a rule to standardize the means of extracting the data and
diagnose the data extracted. The whole idea was to allow people to
understand what was wrong with the car and do repairs themselves without
having to learn the technique to get the data and the meaning of the data
they got for all of the different vehicles they might own.

I own 5 cars. I have to learn several different ways to get the data, and
figure out what the data means, for each of them. OBD II makes it easier for
me to fix my cars, once I migrate my fleet to post '96 production.







  #8  
Old April 11th 09, 08:09 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Scott Dorsey
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Posts: 3,914
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors

In article >, Yousuf Khan > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> The problem is that it will ONLY show you the engine codes. And that's
>> sometimes useful, but it's a tiny fraction of the amount of information
>> that is there.

>
>Are the formats of the non-engine-specific codes different? Will buying
>the round BMW plug and attaching it to a laptop be able to display those
>non-engine codes?


I believe that the error codes for the other computer subsystems are
available through the OBD II port, but they are not readable by the
cheap scanners.

In addition there are diagnostic modes available on the ports which allow
you to plug in a scanning device and look at realtime plots of all the
engine sensor inputs and outputs. This is an absolute lifesaver and a
whole lot easier than trying to guess what's happening from an error
message that says a sensor is out of range, but not what direction it's
out of range, and with no information about the other sensors that aren't
out of range.

Sadly, the cheap scanning tools don't allow you to use that information
either.

The problem is that these cars are computer networks on wheels... there is
an outrageous amount of automation and a huge number of individual
communicating systems, and when _anything_ fails you will be completely
at a loss without information from the responsible system. The cheap
scanning tool isn't a bad thing to have, but it's not enough to diagnose
the vast majority of problems you'll encounter.

Now... the good news is that if it's a 2000 model, it's not anywhere near
as crazy as a late model BMW. And if it has a manual transmission, you
are that much better off because the transmission control system is one
of the more nightmarish diagnostic headaches. But this is a car that has
microprocessors controlling the interior lights... It's not like the 2002
any more, sadly....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #9  
Old April 12th 09, 12:56 AM posted to alt.autos.bmw
YKhan
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Posts: 1
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors

On Apr 11, 3:09*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> I believe that the error codes for the other computer subsystems are
> available through the OBD II port, but they are not readable by the
> cheap scanners.


Okay, assume I'm using a PC with OBDII software rather than a
standalone scanner. My assumption is that all codes are of the same
format, whether they are the standard or proprietary codes on OBDII,
so the PC software should be able to at least display the code number
even if it doesn't understand what it's about.

> In addition there are diagnostic modes available on the ports which allow
> you to plug in a scanning device and look at realtime plots of all the
> engine sensor inputs and outputs. *This is an absolute lifesaver and a
> whole lot easier than trying to guess what's happening from an error
> message that says a sensor is out of range, but not what direction it's
> out of range, and with no information about the other sensors that aren't
> out of range.


I believe the real-time sensor plots are available on all cars, it's
not just a BMW feature, right? So it would be a standard OBDII
feature, rather than proprietary.

> The problem is that these cars are computer networks on wheels... there is
> an outrageous amount of automation and a huge number of individual
> communicating systems, and when _anything_ fails you will be completely
> at a loss without information from the responsible system. *The cheap
> scanning tool isn't a bad thing to have, but it's not enough to diagnose
> the vast majority of problems you'll encounter.
>
> Now... the good news is that if it's a 2000 model, it's not anywhere near
> as crazy as a late model BMW. *And if it has a manual transmission, you
> are that much better off because the transmission control system is one
> of the more nightmarish diagnostic headaches. *But this is a car that has
> microprocessors controlling the interior lights... *It's not like the 2002
> any more, sadly....


Yeah, actually my friend wanted a tool that could even tell him if the
windows were opened or closed. Not that he really needs that, but he
does like to be able to have full capabilities. Will these
proprietary, non-critical codes come through the standard under-dash
port?

Yousuf Khan
  #10  
Old April 12th 09, 02:05 AM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Scott Dorsey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,914
Default BMW OBDII codes and connectors

In article >,
YKhan > wrote:
>On Apr 11, 3:09=A0pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> I believe that the error codes for the other computer subsystems are
>> available through the OBD II port, but they are not readable by the
>> cheap scanners.

>
>Okay, assume I'm using a PC with OBDII software rather than a
>standalone scanner. My assumption is that all codes are of the same
>format, whether they are the standard or proprietary codes on OBDII,
>so the PC software should be able to at least display the code number
>even if it doesn't understand what it's about.


If the PC software knows how to interrogate the other computer systems,
it might. But interrogating the ECU will give you only the ECU codes.

>> In addition there are diagnostic modes available on the ports which allow
>> you to plug in a scanning device and look at realtime plots of all the
>> engine sensor inputs and outputs. =A0This is an absolute lifesaver and a
>> whole lot easier than trying to guess what's happening from an error
>> message that says a sensor is out of range, but not what direction it's
>> out of range, and with no information about the other sensors that aren't
>> out of range.

>
>I believe the real-time sensor plots are available on all cars, it's
>not just a BMW feature, right? So it would be a standard OBDII
>feature, rather than proprietary.


The implementation is proprietary. Some folks have reverse-engineered
it and so there are third-party devices that allow you to see the
information the same way the BMW tools do. Those third-party devices
are very, very expensive.

>Yeah, actually my friend wanted a tool that could even tell him if the
>windows were opened or closed. Not that he really needs that, but he
>does like to be able to have full capabilities. Will these
>proprietary, non-critical codes come through the standard under-dash
>port?


They will, if you know how to send the interrogation sequence in order
to get the computer that controls the windows to tell you what its state
is, and if you know how to read the sequence that it sends back. Software
to do this exists, but it's not cheap.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 




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