Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles

In article >, (Jason) wrote:

>Do other people agree or disagree that those people that charge the
>batteries that they might end up getting more MPG but their electrical
>utility bills will be higher and the utility companies will have to burn
>more oil to run their generators. In other words, in the long run--they
>might not be saving any money in the long run.

Electric wins out ...

A pure electric vehicle might average 300-400 Wh/mile. Add charging
inefficiency and it'll take a bit more, but let's use 400 Wh. My
marginal electric is about $.07/kWh, so it's about $0.028/mi, or
about 36 mi/$. Compare to gasoline at about 10 mi/$ ($2.40/gal and
a 24 mpg car).

Efficiencywise, using 41% average electrical efficiency, it's about
1 kWh(original fuel)/mi compared to about 1.6 for crude oil to the
above car.

But if everyone did it, we'd have to up our electrical capacity by
quite a bit! ( I don't think just off peak charging would do it).

wrote:
> FanJet > wrote:
>> The Smart doesn't consume gasoline and it's very unlikely the
>> Insight gets 73 US MPG irrespective of conditions.
>
> That belies the "only source of energy" that you repeat frequently.
> It's oil, not diesel or gasoline, for the Smart and most other cars.
>
> I picked posted results for each because that would seem to be the
> folks from the hyper-miler class, squeezing miles out of their barrel
> of oil. I stayed with Canadian posts, so I could keep the Smart in
> context.
>
> There are hypermilers in the US that report 90MPG with the Insight.
>
> The Smart is estimated at 51/61 USMPG (and 19.8 seconds 0-60).
> The Insight is rated at 60/71 USMPG (and 10.6 seconds 0-60).

What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.

FanJet > wrote:
> What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
> rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.

Certainly you don't think that the Smart is getting 51mpg during the run?

Why would you point out that the Insight doesn't get EPA rated mileage
during an acceleration run unless it differs from the Smart car?

Given that the Insight doesn't get good mileage during a 0-60 run, do you
think it is better than the Smart during a 0-60 run, with the Smart taking
twice as long for the run?

--
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

wrote:
> Sparky Spartacus > wrote:
>
>>>>The Dark Side of Diesel:
>>>>http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
>
>
>>As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
>>alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
>>city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
>>coulds of dust when dry.
>
>
> Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
> of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.
>

especially if you consider my civic has 108 horsepower. that would be a
long horsedrawn carriage.

wrote:
> FanJet > wrote:
>> What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight
>> is not rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
>
> Certainly you don't think that the Smart is getting 51mpg during the
> run?
>
> Why would you point out that the Insight doesn't get EPA rated mileage
> during an acceleration run unless it differs from the Smart car?
>
> Given that the Insight doesn't get good mileage during a 0-60 run, do
> you think it is better than the Smart during a 0-60 run, with the
> Smart taking twice as long for the run?

Not after the first run or two which is about all you get before a battery
recharge is required. Always ignored is the fact that hybrid efficiency
drops dramatically with ambient temperature - another problem the Smart42
and plain old gasoline ICE cars don't have. This particular problem is
mitigated by warming the batteries in the same way the passenger compartment
is warmed. If it's cold outside, you can plan on hybrid ICEs running all the
time - even in city driving. Same thing happens with the batteries get too
warm except then they use A/C which, again, requires the ICE.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:25:39 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

>Jason > wrote:
>
>> I might have missed it but does anyone know of a website where I can see a
>> picture of the "Smart" vehicle?
>
>http://www.threepointmotors.com/smart/index.asp is a Canadian Dealer.
>
>> Do other people agree or disagree that those people that charge the
>> batteries that they might end up getting more MPG but their electrical
>> utility bills will be higher and the utility companies will have to burn
>> more oil to run their generators. In other words, in the long run--they
>> might not be saving any money in the long run.
>
>This is the subject of "well to wheel" comparisons. How much does it help,
>if any, to move the generation of the power from one place to another,
>including the inefficiencies in transport.
>
>Time of day metering might be mandatory for an Electric car owner, charging
>up at night.
>
>Solar power could be used for charging the electric vehicle, in a home
>setup.
>
>Nuclear/Geothermal/Hydro could be the source of the electricity, reducing
>the need for non-renewable and foreign resources.

Don't forget wind.

SoCalMike wrote:
> especially if you consider my civic has 108 horsepower. that would be a
> long horsedrawn carriage.

Wouldn't be able to go 85, either. ;-))

wrote:

> Sparky Spartacus > wrote:
>
>>>>The Dark Side of Diesel:
>>>>http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
>
>
>>As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
>>alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
>>city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
>>coulds of dust when dry.
>
> Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
> of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.

You bet! Not what I was suggesting, of course. Too expensive to convert
all the gas stations to selling hay & oats, just for openers, plus
there's a severe shortage of blacksmiths to keep the horses shod.

In article >, "FanJet" > wrote:

>What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
>rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.


???
This is a silly point.

FanJet > wrote:
> Not after the first run or two which is about all you get before a
> battery recharge is required.

Motor Trend did eight back to back runs to deplete the battery, and
then they still got a 13.1 second 0-60.

> Always ignored is the fact that hybrid efficiency drops dramatically with
> ambient temperature - another problem the Smart42 and plain old gasoline
> ICE cars don't have.

I don't notice a drop in 20-30 degree weather. Dramatically colder
climates might see different results. I do see a drop in MPG with the A/C
running, whether in the summer to cool the car, or the winter to defrost.

> This particular problem is mitigated by warming the batteries in the same
> way the passenger compartment is warmed. If it's cold outside, you can
> plan on hybrid ICEs running all the time - even in city driving. Same
> thing happens with the batteries get too warm except then they use A/C
> which, again, requires the ICE.

The ICE does not auto-stop when it is cold. I haven't noticed that cause a
drop in the mileage. I think its contribution is small for normal driving.
It might be a plus in congested city traffic, but there I find that the
Honda runs anyway, because it has to get up to 10mph before the auto-stop
is enabled. There is no A/C for the batteries in a Honda. It gets a flow
of air from the passenger compartment, whatever temp that might be.

There is a separate cooling/heating unit in the Escape. I think it is a
separate electric-driven unit, so it doesn't require the ICE to be running.
I can hear it running after the ICE shuts off. I don't know that I would
call it A/C, since it uses coolant and not freon.

--
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5