Thermostat

On 02/12/2010 10:29, Zathras wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:48:23 +0000, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>> On 29/11/2010 11:09, Zathras wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:06:16 +0000, Catman
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 28/11/2010 20:32, Zathras wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:50:32 -0000, > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> After about 5 miles it would perk up noticeably. Actually, if that
>>>>> cleverness had gone tits up, it could explain some of your symptoms.
>>>>> The dash could be routing cold air to the cabin instead of hot. I'm
>>>>> not sure if that characteristic can be manually over-ridden.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That would have no effect on the engine temperature gauge...
>>>
>>> True, but there seem to be some conflicting symptoms with this one so
>>> it's difficult to rule out more than one fault or one fault knocking
>>> on into another unusual one..
>>>
>>
>> Nah
>
> Cold cabin, cold radiator..engine ok.

But it's not OK. It's never getting above 70

Where's the heat going then
> smarty pants? ;-)

Not sure I understand what you mean.

Also don't forget that (AIUI) modern aircon systems actually heat the
air after it's been cooled, so routing cold air into the cabin would
*Still* indicate that there's not enough heat on the rad side to warm
the cabin.

If we assume that the stat is not closing fully, but can open fully it's
reasonably clear to see how the engine might never get up to full temp
except under periods of heavy load and thus produce (AFAICR) all the
symptoms so far revealed.

In fact I am *SO* sure I'm right, I'm almost tempted to pay for the
damned thing myself, as long as GT fits it



--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> On 02/12/2010 10:29, Zathras wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:48:23 +0000, Catman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 29/11/2010 11:09, Zathras wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:06:16 +0000, Catman
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 28/11/2010 20:32, Zathras wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:50:32 -0000, > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> After about 5 miles it would perk up noticeably. Actually, if that
>>>>>> cleverness had gone tits up, it could explain some of your symptoms.
>>>>>> The dash could be routing cold air to the cabin instead of hot. I'm
>>>>>> not sure if that characteristic can be manually over-ridden.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That would have no effect on the engine temperature gauge...
>>>>
>>>> True, but there seem to be some conflicting symptoms with this one so
>>>> it's difficult to rule out more than one fault or one fault knocking
>>>> on into another unusual one..
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nah
>>
>> Cold cabin, cold radiator..engine ok.
>
> But it's not OK. It's never getting above 70
>
> Where's the heat going then
>> smarty pants? ;-)
>
> Not sure I understand what you mean.
>
> Also don't forget that (AIUI) modern aircon systems actually heat the air
> after it's been cooled, so routing cold air into the cabin would *Still*
> indicate that there's not enough heat on the rad side to warm the cabin.
>
> If we assume that the stat is not closing fully, but can open fully it's
> reasonably clear to see how the engine might never get up to full temp
> except under periods of heavy load and thus produce (AFAICR) all the
> symptoms so far revealed.
>
> In fact I am *SO* sure I'm right, I'm almost tempted to pay for the damned
> thing myself, as long as GT fits it

Well I haven't ordered it yet cos we have no postal service this week. Car
is a block of ice anyway and going nowhere till at least Monday!

On 02/12/2010 12:20, GT wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 02/12/2010 10:29, Zathras wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:48:23 +0000, Catman
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 29/11/2010 11:09, Zathras wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:06:16 +0000, Catman
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 28/11/2010 20:32, Zathras wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:50:32 -0000, > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> After about 5 miles it would perk up noticeably. Actually, if that
>>>>>>> cleverness had gone tits up, it could explain some of your symptoms.
>>>>>>> The dash could be routing cold air to the cabin instead of hot. I'm
>>>>>>> not sure if that characteristic can be manually over-ridden.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That would have no effect on the engine temperature gauge...
>>>>>
>>>>> True, but there seem to be some conflicting symptoms with this one so
>>>>> it's difficult to rule out more than one fault or one fault knocking
>>>>> on into another unusual one..
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nah
>>>
>>> Cold cabin, cold radiator..engine ok.
>>
>> But it's not OK. It's never getting above 70
>>
>> Where's the heat going then
>>> smarty pants? ;-)
>>
>> Not sure I understand what you mean.
>>
>> Also don't forget that (AIUI) modern aircon systems actually heat the air
>> after it's been cooled, so routing cold air into the cabin would *Still*
>> indicate that there's not enough heat on the rad side to warm the cabin.
>>
>> If we assume that the stat is not closing fully, but can open fully it's
>> reasonably clear to see how the engine might never get up to full temp
>> except under periods of heavy load and thus produce (AFAICR) all the
>> symptoms so far revealed.
>>
>> In fact I am *SO* sure I'm right, I'm almost tempted to pay for the damned
>> thing myself, as long as GT fits it
>
> Well I haven't ordered it yet cos we have no postal service this week. Car
> is a block of ice anyway and going nowhere till at least Monday!
>
>

It's been less than amusing getting the 10 miles to the tube station
every morning round here.

I'm supposed to be whisking SMWBO away to Brussels for a surprise dirty
wee^H^H^H romantic city break tomorrow. So here's hoping that Eurostar
don't cancel my train tomorrow night.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:55:05 +0000, Catman
> wrote:

>On 02/12/2010 10:29, Zathras wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:48:23 +0000, Catman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 29/11/2010 11:09, Zathras wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:06:16 +0000, Catman
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 28/11/2010 20:32, Zathras wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:50:32 -0000, > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> After about 5 miles it would perk up noticeably. Actually, if that
>>>>>> cleverness had gone tits up, it could explain some of your symptoms.
>>>>>> The dash could be routing cold air to the cabin instead of hot. I'm
>>>>>> not sure if that characteristic can be manually over-ridden.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That would have no effect on the engine temperature gauge...
>>>>
>>>> True, but there seem to be some conflicting symptoms with this one so
>>>> it's difficult to rule out more than one fault or one fault knocking
>>>> on into another unusual one..
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nah
>>
>> Cold cabin, cold radiator..engine ok.
>
>But it's not OK. It's never getting above 70

By "engine ok", I meant "engine hadn't melted"..sorry.

> Where's the heat going then
>> smarty pants? ;-)
>
>Not sure I understand what you mean.

But where could the heat have *gone* (if it were ever
generated)..given the symptoms as described? Cold rad and cold cabin.

>Also don't forget that (AIUI) modern aircon systems actually heat the
>air after it's been cooled, so routing cold air into the cabin would
>*Still* indicate that there's not enough heat on the rad side to warm
>the cabin.

I suspect the OP failed to test the stat by measuring the rad temp
when it wouldn't produce a valid result.

>If we assume that the stat is not closing fully, but can open fully it's
>reasonably clear to see how the engine might never get up to full temp
>except under periods of heavy load and thus produce (AFAICR) all the
>symptoms so far revealed.

Even this one.."The larger pipes between the thermostat and the
radiator were still cold and the radiator was cold, so no coolant had
moved to the cooling radiator area, meaning that the thermostat hadn't
opened at all"?

What I've been implying is that the above assumption was wrong by
trying (hamfistedly) to ask where the heat could have been going if it
wasn't getting dissipated in the rad.

>In fact I am *SO* sure I'm right, I'm almost tempted to pay for the
>damned thing myself, as long as GT fits it

Yes, absolutely agreed. I said a while back.."IME, Alfa stats aren't
strong. This, allied with your classic fault symptom description makes
it a no-brainer. Just change it and don't waste any further time on
it.."

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:50:29 +0000, Catman
> wrote:

>On 02/12/2010 10:28, Zathras wrote:

>> It's a very good idea but a look about the net suggests they might not
>> be available for my 18 inch 35 profile 255 tyres. :-(
>>
>
>Show off

Hah..being run-flats, there is almost no change out of 300UKP *EACH*.
I bet you're *really* jealous now!! :-( However, the lateral grip
they offer is on a different planet to the 205s on the 156.

I used to enjoy lift-off oversteer on roundabouts in the 156 in the
dry. I've never been able to (in similar conditions) break the rear
away in the Beemer (unless the road was slippy) and with narrower
tyres on the front it understeers a tiny bit when pushed beyond the
limit. That limit is way beyond the Alfas limit. I can see exactly why
reviewers said that the 156 was "more fun than some sports cars".

Where the 156 was great fun, the Beemer is just terrifying. You come
away from hooligan manoeuvres thinking "how the hell did it do that
and how did I survive?". The Alfa's lower pace fun was much more
gentlemanly and relaxing. The Beemer is much more impressive but the
Alfa made me laugh when I drove it and the Beemer doesn't.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

On 02/12/2010 21:36, Zathras wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:55:05 +0000, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/2010 10:29, Zathras wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:48:23 +0000, Catman
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 29/11/2010 11:09, Zathras wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 21:06:16 +0000, Catman
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 28/11/2010 20:32, Zathras wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:50:32 -0000, > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> After about 5 miles it would perk up noticeably. Actually, if that
>>>>>>> cleverness had gone tits up, it could explain some of your symptoms.
>>>>>>> The dash could be routing cold air to the cabin instead of hot. I'm
>>>>>>> not sure if that characteristic can be manually over-ridden.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That would have no effect on the engine temperature gauge...
>>>>>
>>>>> True, but there seem to be some conflicting symptoms with this one so
>>>>> it's difficult to rule out more than one fault or one fault knocking
>>>>> on into another unusual one..
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nah
>>>
>>> Cold cabin, cold radiator..engine ok.
>>
>> But it's not OK. It's never getting above 70
>
> By "engine ok", I meant "engine hadn't melted"..sorry.
>
>> Where's the heat going then
>>> smarty pants? ;-)
>>
>> Not sure I understand what you mean.
>
> But where could the heat have *gone* (if it were ever
> generated)..given the symptoms as described? Cold rad and cold cabin.
>

It's at least partly likely that the rad wont be needed at all in these
conditions. Remember the old days when we used to cover the grill with foil?

It's also possible that the rad is just radiating so fast that you just
can't feel the heat IYSWIM.

>> Also don't forget that (AIUI) modern aircon systems actually heat the
>> air after it's been cooled, so routing cold air into the cabin would
>> *Still* indicate that there's not enough heat on the rad side to warm
>> the cabin.
>
> I suspect the OP failed to test the stat by measuring the rad temp
> when it wouldn't produce a valid result.
>
>> If we assume that the stat is not closing fully, but can open fully it's
>> reasonably clear to see how the engine might never get up to full temp
>> except under periods of heavy load and thus produce (AFAICR) all the
>> symptoms so far revealed.
>
> Even this one.."The larger pipes between the thermostat and the
> radiator were still cold and the radiator was cold, so no coolant had
> moved to the cooling radiator area, meaning that the thermostat hadn't
> opened at all"?

See above. It is a bit of a puzzler, though, that I will grant.

>
> What I've been implying is that the above assumption was wrong by
> trying (hamfistedly) to ask where the heat could have been going if it
> wasn't getting dissipated in the rad.
>

Engines at idle don't produce *that* much extra IME.

>> In fact I am *SO* sure I'm right, I'm almost tempted to pay for the
>> damned thing myself, as long as GT fits it
>
> Yes, absolutely agreed. I said a while back.."IME, Alfa stats aren't
> strong. This, allied with your classic fault symptom description makes
> it a no-brainer. Just change it and don't waste any further time on
> it.."
>

Indeed. So what shall we talk about instead
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On 02/12/2010 21:59, Zathras wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:50:29 +0000, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/2010 10:28, Zathras wrote:
>
>>> It's a very good idea but a look about the net suggests they might not
>>> be available for my 18 inch 35 profile 255 tyres. :-(
>>>
>>
>> Show off
>
> Hah..being run-flats, there is almost no change out of 300UKP *EACH*.
> I bet you're *really* jealous now!! :-(

Meh. I hope to be buying my 4200 in the next 12 months. I'll be in the
same boat, cost wise AIUI.

> However, the lateral grip
> they offer is on a different planet to the 205s on the 156.
>

Cool. Do they track as badly as mine do?

> I used to enjoy lift-off oversteer on roundabouts in the 156 in the
> dry. I've never been able to (in similar conditions) break the rear
> away in the Beemer (unless the road was slippy) and with narrower
> tyres on the front it understeers a tiny bit when pushed beyond the
> limit. That limit is way beyond the Alfas limit. I can see exactly why
> reviewers said that the 156 was "more fun than some sports cars".
>
> Where the 156 was great fun, the Beemer is just terrifying. You come
> away from hooligan manoeuvres thinking "how the hell did it do that
> and how did I survive?". The Alfa's lower pace fun was much more
> gentlemanly and relaxing. The Beemer is much more impressive but the
> Alfa made me laugh when I drove it and the Beemer doesn't.
>

That's about the size of it really, isn't it.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

Catman > wrote:

> > Where the 156 was great fun, the Beemer is just terrifying. You come
> > away from hooligan manoeuvres thinking "how the hell did it do that
> > and how did I survive?". The Alfa's lower pace fun was much more
> > gentlemanly and relaxing. The Beemer is much more impressive but the
> > Alfa made me laugh when I drove it and the Beemer doesn't.
> >
>
> That's about the size of it really, isn't it.

The BMW is probably using fancy stability control programs to make it
feel like there's unlimited grip.

All stability control does, in reality, is ensure that when you do lose
it, you'll be going so quickly you'll be in the trees before you know
what's happened. ;-)
--
SteveH

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> On 02/12/2010 21:59, Zathras wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:50:29 +0000, Catman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/12/2010 10:28, Zathras wrote:
>>
>>>> It's a very good idea but a look about the net suggests they might not
>>>> be available for my 18 inch 35 profile 255 tyres. :-(
>>>>
>>>
>>> Show off
>>
>> Hah..being run-flats, there is almost no change out of 300UKP *EACH*.
>> I bet you're *really* jealous now!! :-(
>
> Meh. I hope to be buying my 4200 in the next 12 months. I'll be in the
> same boat, cost wise AIUI.

Maserati?

On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 11:35:31 +0000, Catman
> wrote:

> So what shall we talk about instead

Why do people's brains self destruct when faced with a wee bit of
snow?..

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)