just played richard burns rally, tough game.

I finally played RBR, and it is easily the most difficult racing game I have
ever played. I have not crashed my car more in a racing game since way back
when I first played GPL. And yet it is not really frustrating , but loads of
fun in spite of all of my off track excursions. I played it for 3 hours
straight the first time, and did not even notice the time. Awesome game. I
think that it will be a long time til I master this racer, very steep
learning curve compared to any other sim I have played. I thought it would
be no problem, since I have been playing sims for years, including
GPL,Nascar 2003, Colin mcrae rally 2004, GTR demo, among other sims.
However, this game has me driving with great caution, like a novice driver,
and yet is still fun. I can only occasionally manage to execute a decent
power slide, which I could easily do with other rally sims. Anyways, if you
have not already played this sim, it is worth the money.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 05:55:59 -0700, "meee" > wrote:

>I finally played RBR, and it is easily the most difficult racing game I have
>ever played. I have not crashed my car more in a racing game since way back
>when I first played GPL. And yet it is not really frustrating , but loads of
>fun in spite of all of my off track excursions. I played it for 3 hours
>straight the first time, and did not even notice the time. Awesome game. I
>think that it will be a long time til I master this racer, very steep
>learning curve compared to any other sim I have played. I thought it would
>be no problem, since I have been playing sims for years, including
>GPL,Nascar 2003, Colin mcrae rally 2004, GTR demo, among other sims.
>However, this game has me driving with great caution, like a novice driver,
>and yet is still fun. I can only occasionally manage to execute a decent
>power slide, which I could easily do with other rally sims. Anyways, if you
>have not already played this sim, it is worth the money.

It looks like loads of fun. But if memory serves me correctly, it has
no cockpit view. That alone would keep me from buying it. I ran the
demo, and was impressed with the graphics. But I just can't bring
myself to drive from the roof view.

TW wrote:
<snip>
> It looks like loads of fun. But if memory serves me correctly, it has
> no cockpit view. That alone would keep me from buying it. I ran the
> demo, and was impressed with the graphics. But I just can't bring
> myself to drive from the roof view.

It has a cockpit view.

Brian

RBR is incredible. I'm surprised it doesn't get more discussion here,
it's imho by far the best sim that's come out since N2003. It's
incredible that Warthog went from Rally Champ Xtreme to making a game
with a tire model that's Papy-like in quality and detail.

It DOES have cockpit view btw.

TW wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 05:55:59 -0700, "meee" > wrote:
>
>
>>I finally played RBR, and it is easily the most difficult racing game I have
>>ever played. I have not crashed my car more in a racing game since way back
>>when I first played GPL. And yet it is not really frustrating , but loads of
>>fun in spite of all of my off track excursions. I played it for 3 hours
>>straight the first time, and did not even notice the time. Awesome game. I
>>think that it will be a long time til I master this racer, very steep
>>learning curve compared to any other sim I have played. I thought it would
>>be no problem, since I have been playing sims for years, including
>>GPL,Nascar 2003, Colin mcrae rally 2004, GTR demo, among other sims.
>>However, this game has me driving with great caution, like a novice driver,
>>and yet is still fun. I can only occasionally manage to execute a decent
>>power slide, which I could easily do with other rally sims. Anyways, if you
>>have not already played this sim, it is worth the money.
>
>
> It looks like loads of fun. But if memory serves me correctly, it has
> no cockpit view. That alone would keep me from buying it. I ran the
> demo, and was impressed with the graphics. But I just can't bring
> myself to drive from the roof view.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:04:11 GMT, Brian Lecorchick wrote:
> TW wrote:
><snip>
>> It looks like loads of fun. But if memory serves me correctly, it has
>> no cockpit view. That alone would keep me from buying it. I ran the
>> demo, and was impressed with the graphics. But I just can't bring
>> myself to drive from the roof view.
>
> It has a cockpit view.
>
> Brian

you should also check out http://www.rbr-online.net/ which allows
"life like" rallies against human opponents over the net. It was
featured in ASS the other month, I believe.

Cheers, uwe


--
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

jason moyer" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> RBR is incredible. I'm surprised it doesn't get more discussion here,
> it's imho by far the best sim that's come out since N2003. It's
> incredible that Warthog went from Rally Champ Xtreme to making a game
> with a tire model that's Papy-like in quality and detail.

Right then - some RBR discussion.

There's actually a lot of RBR discussion on the web boards at BHM and RSC.
Maybe it attracts mostly a younger generation who just weren't about in the
days of newsgroups, and simply don't know/care that this group exists?
Anyway - this is not what I wish to discuss.

For me, RBR was the holy grail that I had been awaiting for 10 years. I'm a
former club level rally driver, and had always preferred this genre to
circuit racing. Rally Trophy was the first decent attempt at a SIM - and I
mastered it religiously, but it was "not quite there" physics wise. A very
dedicated group of people over at no-grip.net have developed a new physics
model for Rally Trophy, but it simply doesn't compare with the ultra-realism
of RBR.

When I first loaded up RBR, I found that I was reasonably quick on the very
loose surfaces that reflected my own experiences (snow/wet gravel), just by
driving the car as I would in real life. That was such an ecstatic
experience!

However, the defining quality of RBR is one I have also seen with GPL and
very few other Sims - the ability for individual techniques to be used
according to driver preferences, as opposed to one fastest way to drive as
dictated by the software. I have learnt much about real handling and how
other people drive by studying replays, and having the luxury of changing my
own style without risking real world "offs". Looking at say the top 20
replays of any one stage, you'll see 10-15 different styles - all within a
few seconds of each other. Its more than just setting the car up for
understeer or oversteer - the individual driver's style is apparent in all
aspects of the driving.

The learning curve has been amazing! Like many RBR drivers, I thought I was
pretty good until I started trying to drive hard ;-). Even with my previous
experience, driving a 300 HP WRC class car is a whole new learning curve. I
have had several breakthroughs over the months, where my brain suddenly
finds a faster way to drive and my times come down. Rather than a gradual
improvement of a few 10th every day, I find that I plateau for a week or
two, maybe with a little frustration, then suddenly find another 5-10
seconds on a stage.

Mastering the tightening sweepers on narrow loose stages such as Perka
Menoko was a real thrill. The replays showed the car in a 4 wheel drift most
of the time, with the front wheels constantly moving from positive to
opposite lock to fine tune the car, with the actual cornering angle dictated
by the increasing rear slip angle as the curve tightens up. When I next saw
a rally on TV - I see exactly the same thing with the pros, and have an
even greater appreciation of "being there".

Another great skill to master on RBR is one I have used often in real life -
constant scando flicks through esses. This doesn't just require thinking and
acting a corner ahead, but actually setting the line and speed two curves
ahead - especially on snow or wet tracks.

Having said all this, I'm afraid that I'm pessimistic about the future of
RBR, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, the software is very "locked down" and almost impossible to mod in
terms of additional tracks or different types of car. The best we have seen
are converting some stages to/from tarmac and gravel, and a few new car
skins. Whilst the car skins look great - what I really care about is the
physics. New physics models are claimed - but these appear to be nothing
more than changes to the default handing of the car as per what can be done
with the car tuning menus.

Secondly, the development company was sold shortly after the release of RBR,
and many of the developers left. There is little chance of a new version of
RBR in the same way as the Colin McRae series.

My third concern is purely personal speculation. I suspect that
commercially, the title has not had anywhere near the success of CMR, or
other mainstream games/Sims. This was to be expected, given the niche market
appeal. However, future development is driven by hard commercial realities,
not a vocal minority of fans.

I think the lack of online play was mistake. I regularly use RBR-NET,
however, it can't replicate the quality of a designed-in online experience.
I understand perfectly that rallying is all about racing the clock, not
other people directly, but ghost racing can achieve this in a time
compressed way. Frankly, if there was an excellent built-in module that
allowed spectating and standard 2 minute intervals between cars, I would
happily wait my turn whilst watching the competitors online.

The final concern is in respect of the sensitive area of Richard Burn's
health and ability to further participate in the future development of RBR.
Richard put a lot of personal effort into this SIM - pushing hard for the
realism angle. As a former world champion who was at the peak of his career
when the game was produced, he had the power to dictate his will. Also, even
if the game never made a profit, the loss could be underwritten by his team
and sponsors as a way of further promoting him within the sport. I can only
hope that Richard will make a full recovery and be further involved
promoting sim rallying in future. The good news is that he successfully
underwent an operation this week to remove excess tumour growth from his
brain. Good luck Richard!

Regards,
Tim

Eppy, thanks for taking the time to write such a well thought out and
informative post, especially coming from someone who has actual rallying
experience.
It was also good to hear something positive concerning Richard Burns health.
I hope that someone, or group of smart someones, will discover a way to
crack the code for this game, and make it possible to create new tracks at
the very least.
This game deserves GPL-like longevity.
"eppy" > wrote in message
k...
>
>
> jason moyer" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > RBR is incredible. I'm surprised it doesn't get more discussion here,
> > it's imho by far the best sim that's come out since N2003. It's
> > incredible that Warthog went from Rally Champ Xtreme to making a game
> > with a tire model that's Papy-like in quality and detail.
>
> Right then - some RBR discussion.
>
> There's actually a lot of RBR discussion on the web boards at BHM and RSC.
> Maybe it attracts mostly a younger generation who just weren't about in
the
> days of newsgroups, and simply don't know/care that this group exists?
> Anyway - this is not what I wish to discuss.
>
> For me, RBR was the holy grail that I had been awaiting for 10 years. I'm
a
> former club level rally driver, and had always preferred this genre to
> circuit racing. Rally Trophy was the first decent attempt at a SIM - and I
> mastered it religiously, but it was "not quite there" physics wise. A very
> dedicated group of people over at no-grip.net have developed a new physics
> model for Rally Trophy, but it simply doesn't compare with the
ultra-realism
> of RBR.
>
> When I first loaded up RBR, I found that I was reasonably quick on the
very
> loose surfaces that reflected my own experiences (snow/wet gravel), just
by
> driving the car as I would in real life. That was such an ecstatic
> experience!
>
> However, the defining quality of RBR is one I have also seen with GPL and
> very few other Sims - the ability for individual techniques to be used
> according to driver preferences, as opposed to one fastest way to drive as
> dictated by the software. I have learnt much about real handling and how
> other people drive by studying replays, and having the luxury of changing
my
> own style without risking real world "offs". Looking at say the top 20
> replays of any one stage, you'll see 10-15 different styles - all within a
> few seconds of each other. Its more than just setting the car up for
> understeer or oversteer - the individual driver's style is apparent in all
> aspects of the driving.
>
> The learning curve has been amazing! Like many RBR drivers, I thought I
was
> pretty good until I started trying to drive hard ;-). Even with my
previous
> experience, driving a 300 HP WRC class car is a whole new learning curve.
I
> have had several breakthroughs over the months, where my brain suddenly
> finds a faster way to drive and my times come down. Rather than a gradual
> improvement of a few 10th every day, I find that I plateau for a week or
> two, maybe with a little frustration, then suddenly find another 5-10
> seconds on a stage.
>
> Mastering the tightening sweepers on narrow loose stages such as Perka
> Menoko was a real thrill. The replays showed the car in a 4 wheel drift
most
> of the time, with the front wheels constantly moving from positive to
> opposite lock to fine tune the car, with the actual cornering angle
dictated
> by the increasing rear slip angle as the curve tightens up. When I next
saw
> a rally on TV - I see exactly the same thing with the pros, and have an
> even greater appreciation of "being there".
>
> Another great skill to master on RBR is one I have used often in real
life -
> constant scando flicks through esses. This doesn't just require thinking
and
> acting a corner ahead, but actually setting the line and speed two curves
> ahead - especially on snow or wet tracks.
>
> Having said all this, I'm afraid that I'm pessimistic about the future of
> RBR, for a number of reasons.
>
> Firstly, the software is very "locked down" and almost impossible to mod
in
> terms of additional tracks or different types of car. The best we have
seen
> are converting some stages to/from tarmac and gravel, and a few new car
> skins. Whilst the car skins look great - what I really care about is the
> physics. New physics models are claimed - but these appear to be nothing
> more than changes to the default handing of the car as per what can be
done
> with the car tuning menus.
>
> Secondly, the development company was sold shortly after the release of
RBR,
> and many of the developers left. There is little chance of a new version
of
> RBR in the same way as the Colin McRae series.
>
> My third concern is purely personal speculation. I suspect that
> commercially, the title has not had anywhere near the success of CMR, or
> other mainstream games/Sims. This was to be expected, given the niche
market
> appeal. However, future development is driven by hard commercial
realities,
> not a vocal minority of fans.
>
> I think the lack of online play was mistake. I regularly use RBR-NET,
> however, it can't replicate the quality of a designed-in online
experience.
> I understand perfectly that rallying is all about racing the clock, not
> other people directly, but ghost racing can achieve this in a time
> compressed way. Frankly, if there was an excellent built-in module that
> allowed spectating and standard 2 minute intervals between cars, I would
> happily wait my turn whilst watching the competitors online.
>
> The final concern is in respect of the sensitive area of Richard Burn's
> health and ability to further participate in the future development of
RBR.
> Richard put a lot of personal effort into this SIM - pushing hard for the
> realism angle. As a former world champion who was at the peak of his
career
> when the game was produced, he had the power to dictate his will. Also,
even
> if the game never made a profit, the loss could be underwritten by his
team
> and sponsors as a way of further promoting him within the sport. I can
only
> hope that Richard will make a full recovery and be further involved
> promoting sim rallying in future. The good news is that he successfully
> underwent an operation this week to remove excess tumour growth from his
> brain. Good luck Richard!
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>
>

Thanks for your comments.

After reading the message about lackof discussion here, I thought I'd put
some effort into writing a decent article, to see if I could generate a bit
of discussion. Unfortunatly, yours was the only reply. However, this may be
because my message was "buried" in the reply of a thread, rather than
starting a new thread.

Anyway, yeah - new tracks would be fantastic. Imagine Pikes Peak - emulating
Ari Vatenen!

I might have to wait 2-3 years, but I'm sure something else will come along.

Cheers,
Tim


"meee" > wrote in message
...
> Eppy, thanks for taking the time to write such a well thought out and
> informative post, especially coming from someone who has actual rallying
> experience.
> It was also good to hear something positive concerning Richard Burns
> health.
> I hope that someone, or group of smart someones, will discover a way to
> crack the code for this game, and make it possible to create new tracks at
> the very least.
> This game deserves GPL-like longevity.
> "eppy" > wrote in message
> k...
>>
>>
>> jason moyer" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > RBR is incredible. I'm surprised it doesn't get more discussion here,
>> > it's imho by far the best sim that's come out since N2003. It's
>> > incredible that Warthog went from Rally Champ Xtreme to making a game
>> > with a tire model that's Papy-like in quality and detail.
>>
>> Right then - some RBR discussion.
>>
>> There's actually a lot of RBR discussion on the web boards at BHM and
>> RSC.
>> Maybe it attracts mostly a younger generation who just weren't about in
> the
>> days of newsgroups, and simply don't know/care that this group exists?
>> Anyway - this is not what I wish to discuss.
>>
>> For me, RBR was the holy grail that I had been awaiting for 10 years. I'm
> a
>> former club level rally driver, and had always preferred this genre to
>> circuit racing. Rally Trophy was the first decent attempt at a SIM - and
>> I
>> mastered it religiously, but it was "not quite there" physics wise. A
>> very
>> dedicated group of people over at no-grip.net have developed a new
>> physics
>> model for Rally Trophy, but it simply doesn't compare with the
> ultra-realism
>> of RBR.
>>
>> When I first loaded up RBR, I found that I was reasonably quick on the
> very
>> loose surfaces that reflected my own experiences (snow/wet gravel), just
> by
>> driving the car as I would in real life. That was such an ecstatic
>> experience!
>>
>> However, the defining quality of RBR is one I have also seen with GPL and
>> very few other Sims - the ability for individual techniques to be used
>> according to driver preferences, as opposed to one fastest way to drive
>> as
>> dictated by the software. I have learnt much about real handling and how
>> other people drive by studying replays, and having the luxury of changing
> my
>> own style without risking real world "offs". Looking at say the top 20
>> replays of any one stage, you'll see 10-15 different styles - all within
>> a
>> few seconds of each other. Its more than just setting the car up for
>> understeer or oversteer - the individual driver's style is apparent in
>> all
>> aspects of the driving.
>>
>> The learning curve has been amazing! Like many RBR drivers, I thought I
> was
>> pretty good until I started trying to drive hard ;-). Even with my
> previous
>> experience, driving a 300 HP WRC class car is a whole new learning curve.
> I
>> have had several breakthroughs over the months, where my brain suddenly
>> finds a faster way to drive and my times come down. Rather than a gradual
>> improvement of a few 10th every day, I find that I plateau for a week or
>> two, maybe with a little frustration, then suddenly find another 5-10
>> seconds on a stage.
>>
>> Mastering the tightening sweepers on narrow loose stages such as Perka
>> Menoko was a real thrill. The replays showed the car in a 4 wheel drift
> most
>> of the time, with the front wheels constantly moving from positive to
>> opposite lock to fine tune the car, with the actual cornering angle
> dictated
>> by the increasing rear slip angle as the curve tightens up. When I next
> saw
>> a rally on TV - I see exactly the same thing with the pros, and have an
>> even greater appreciation of "being there".
>>
>> Another great skill to master on RBR is one I have used often in real
> life -
>> constant scando flicks through esses. This doesn't just require thinking
> and
>> acting a corner ahead, but actually setting the line and speed two curves
>> ahead - especially on snow or wet tracks.
>>
>> Having said all this, I'm afraid that I'm pessimistic about the future of
>> RBR, for a number of reasons.
>>
>> Firstly, the software is very "locked down" and almost impossible to mod
> in
>> terms of additional tracks or different types of car. The best we have
> seen
>> are converting some stages to/from tarmac and gravel, and a few new car
>> skins. Whilst the car skins look great - what I really care about is the
>> physics. New physics models are claimed - but these appear to be nothing
>> more than changes to the default handing of the car as per what can be
> done
>> with the car tuning menus.
>>
>> Secondly, the development company was sold shortly after the release of
> RBR,
>> and many of the developers left. There is little chance of a new version
> of
>> RBR in the same way as the Colin McRae series.
>>
>> My third concern is purely personal speculation. I suspect that
>> commercially, the title has not had anywhere near the success of CMR, or
>> other mainstream games/Sims. This was to be expected, given the niche
> market
>> appeal. However, future development is driven by hard commercial
> realities,
>> not a vocal minority of fans.
>>
>> I think the lack of online play was mistake. I regularly use RBR-NET,
>> however, it can't replicate the quality of a designed-in online
> experience.
>> I understand perfectly that rallying is all about racing the clock, not
>> other people directly, but ghost racing can achieve this in a time
>> compressed way. Frankly, if there was an excellent built-in module that
>> allowed spectating and standard 2 minute intervals between cars, I would
>> happily wait my turn whilst watching the competitors online.
>>
>> The final concern is in respect of the sensitive area of Richard Burn's
>> health and ability to further participate in the future development of
> RBR.
>> Richard put a lot of personal effort into this SIM - pushing hard for the
>> realism angle. As a former world champion who was at the peak of his
> career
>> when the game was produced, he had the power to dictate his will. Also,
> even
>> if the game never made a profit, the loss could be underwritten by his
> team
>> and sponsors as a way of further promoting him within the sport. I can
> only
>> hope that Richard will make a full recovery and be further involved
>> promoting sim rallying in future. The good news is that he successfully
>> underwent an operation this week to remove excess tumour growth from his
>> brain. Good luck Richard!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tim
>>
>>
>
>

"eppy" > wrote in
. uk:

> Thanks for your comments.
>
> After reading the message about lackof discussion here, I thought I'd
> put some effort into writing a decent article, to see if I could
> generate a bit of discussion. Unfortunatly, yours was the only reply.
> However, this may be because my message was "buried" in the reply of a
> thread, rather than starting a new thread.
>
> Anyway, yeah - new tracks would be fantastic. Imagine Pikes Peak -
> emulating Ari Vatenen!
>
> I might have to wait 2-3 years, but I'm sure something else will come
> along.
>
> Cheers,
> Tim

SCGT => F12k1 => F1c. Pikes Peak has been around for at least a year
now. Probably alot longer than that...

dh