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I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 1st 11, 01:38 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Plowboy
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Posts: 14
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

"Andrew MacPherson" > wrote in message
...
> (PlowBoy) wrote:
>
>> So since I didn't have time to surf, when is it out?

>
> I've been away for a few days so you'll have probably been able to
> research this
> already, but my current best guesstimate for rF2's release is some time
> just after
> Fukushima becomes a tourist destination. :->
>
> It wouldn't surprise me if they went all the way to next Xmas, because it
> seems to
> me that they still have a lot of work to do polishing things for release.
> They may
> cut a few corners to lance the boil of impatience, but I'd rather they
> waited to
> avoid too many release issues.
>
> On the other hand if they want to release it tomorrow I'll happily buy it,
> especially if the AI's up and running satisfactorily.
>
> I was going to buy Shift2, but the early reviews seem to show that -- as
> we
> suspected -- it was only ever going to be Shift1 with a bit of spit,
> polish, and
> night racing.
>
> I want it, I just don't want it at full price. Especially as I have Cliffs
> of Dover
> downloading in the background!
>
> Speaking of rushed releases, there are some very mixed messages floating
> around
> about this long awaited title too. Disappointment appears to be a big
> theme this
> week, what with Crysis2, Shift2, and potentially this too.
>
> Still, shooting Jerry down into the English Channel is always
> entertaining, no
> matter what other problems there may be.
>
> Andrew McP
>




Sadly, that plant in Russia, IS a tourist destination, apparently doing well
with Europeans? kinda explains them as well... lol (Joking) I made a
scary mistake 20 years ago, turned down a high paying job at a battery
factory, working in a lead smelting process room, thinking life is just too
friggin short to get lead poisoning last fking thing I want to do is go
visit a freaking leaking f'ing reactor site...

Ads
  #13  
Old April 5th 11, 06:59 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
jelloshooter69
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Posts: 25
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

i am excited for sure. vintage stock cars sounded great. I guess tsf
will cover modern stock car racing with their program too. rf just is
not suited well for them, vhr 2011 is ok and is miles ahead of sce
2011 in graphics and content and a whole lot less bugs and framerate
issues. also wish they had better tracks and graphics for them there
is no good oval modders. looking forward to all the new rf2 softwares
to come out.
  #14  
Old April 21st 11, 05:35 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
William Bradshaw
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Posts: 3
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

On 3/26/2011 1:36 AM, Andrew MacPherson wrote:
> ...now I appear to have got a little bit excited. That's not good for me. It messes
> with my naturally pessimistic hormone levels.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDyHA...layer_embedded
>
> All that remains to be seen is how well they can translate this work into that
> elusive "feel" through your wheel. I think I shall allow myself to be more
> optimistic than I was before.
>
> http://www.virtualr.net/rfactor-2-ne...view-video-qa/
>
> Andrew McP
>
> PS Visually it's not spectacular, but in another VirtualR post there's talk of the
> work on post processing still to be done. That should bring it a little more up to
> date, visually.... though I'm not too bothered as long as they manage to get close
> to iRacing& NKPro in terms of satisfying ride.
>
> PPS Why do F1 cars have to get uglier every year? Those silly-small wings this
> season are horrible.


As the dev of NSS, I too get excited about the info they're releasing.
I'm just hoping that their tire and suspension updates will do sim
racing justice. It sucks trying to develop something and then realize
the physics just don't support it.

Of course, I was excited about NASCAR 2011 as well...then I read the
reviews and forums. Talk about deflated expectations.


-Will
  #15  
Old April 21st 11, 07:36 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Andrew MacPherson[_2_]
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Posts: 287
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

(William Bradshaw) wrote:

> As the dev of NSS


Ah, that's very interesting. Having only recently reactivated rF I was a bit short
of oval action. Since leaving iRacing (albeit temporarily because iRacing is the
Hotel California of simming) I've missed my Silverado... though I haven't missed
the occasional 1.5 hour races with a million laps under yellow.

You've prompted me to do some downloading. I'll investigate later.

> I'm just hoping that their tire and suspension updates will do
> sim racing justice.


Well, I think it's fair to use iRacing as a modern benchmark in these things, and
the rF guys (especially Tim!) must know what they're competing with. So I'm
confident we'll be getting something quite impressive.

Perhaps not as impressive as many people hope for though. The rF forum seems to be
full of folk expecting nothing short of a feature-packed miracle! When it turns out
to be similar to iRacing, with lots of stuff on the to-do list, I fear a minor
revolt.

But then the simming community has always been pretty revolting and stroppy, so
there'll be nothing new there. :-)

> It sucks trying to develop something
> and then realize the physics just don't support it.


In the distant past I did some game programming in assembly code, and being in
complete control of the code was both frustrating and rewarding at the same time. I
can only imagine the frustration associated with trying to make other people's code
do what you want! :-) But it's always nice to 'meet' people who've actually given
something to the community rather than just taking/complaining. So, er, thanks
Will!

> Of course, I was excited about NASCAR 2011 as well...then I read
> the reviews and forums. Talk about deflated expectations.


I have so far managed to resist the temptation to buy a PS3 import on UK's Ebay.
Maybe when it's a bit cheaper. Ok, a lot cheaper. :->

It did seem to have potential though, you're right. I just got scared off by the
nasty physics in some of the videos, then user reports.

Andrew McP

  #16  
Old April 22nd 11, 03:16 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
William Bradshaw
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Posts: 3
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

On 4/21/2011 1:36 AM, Andrew MacPherson wrote:
> (William Bradshaw) wrote:
>
>> As the dev of NSS

>
> Ah, that's very interesting. Having only recently reactivated rF I was a bit short
> of oval action. Since leaving iRacing (albeit temporarily because iRacing is the
> Hotel California of simming) I've missed my Silverado... though I haven't missed
> the occasional 1.5 hour races with a million laps under yellow.
>
> You've prompted me to do some downloading. I'll investigate later.


I think it's universally agreed among the guys at FMS that NSS 4.0 was
probably the best mod version. I took the reigns after NSS 2010 was
released by John Alley, which is a higher gripped version of NASCAR. I
believe his idea at the time was to challenge VHR in popularity and ease
of use. NSS 7.0, what I'm working on, is going back to roots in reality.

Basically, I ask that you don't judge the mod based off of NSS 2010.
haha. What I'm working on is vastly different. That said, I should
probably get in touch with the guys at Sim Racing Tonight and ask 'em
not to review what is currently out for Top Sim Car.

>> I'm just hoping that their tire and suspension updates will do
>> sim racing justice.

>
> Well, I think it's fair to use iRacing as a modern benchmark in these things, and
> the rF guys (especially Tim!) must know what they're competing with. So I'm
> confident we'll be getting something quite impressive.
>
> Perhaps not as impressive as many people hope for though. The rF forum seems to be
> full of folk expecting nothing short of a feature-packed miracle! When it turns out
> to be similar to iRacing, with lots of stuff on the to-do list, I fear a minor
> revolt.
>
> But then the simming community has always been pretty revolting and stroppy, so
> there'll be nothing new there. :-)


I think most people (AKA sim racers) can agree that graphics doesn't
define a sim, but the physics in the background. So far, it's been
promising from their updates.

>> It sucks trying to develop something
>> and then realize the physics just don't support it.

>
> In the distant past I did some game programming in assembly code, and being in
> complete control of the code was both frustrating and rewarding at the same time. I
> can only imagine the frustration associated with trying to make other people's code
> do what you want! :-) But it's always nice to 'meet' people who've actually given
> something to the community rather than just taking/complaining. So, er, thanks
> Will!


Well, I haven't given anything yet. Still a long WIP, but at least the
core suspension and aero is in place at the moment. But at least you're
aware of the challenges involved. I remember trying my hand at C++ and
giving up after a month.

Frankly, I got tired of the NSS cars not reacting as the real life
counterparts do! That, and I'm tired of seeing huge numbers of VHR
servers on the in-game server listing. lol. So, indeed, it's definitely
a mountain climb when getting into ISI modding.

>> Of course, I was excited about NASCAR 2011 as well...then I read
>> the reviews and forums. Talk about deflated expectations.

>
> I have so far managed to resist the temptation to buy a PS3 import on UK's Ebay.
> Maybe when it's a bit cheaper. Ok, a lot cheaper. :->
>
> It did seem to have potential though, you're right. I just got scared off by the
> nasty physics in some of the videos, then user reports.


Agreed. It's kind of strange of them to hype up the great damage
modeling and graphics, but not care about the physics so much. Reminds
me of the EA debacle all over again. On the plus side, at least they're
going to patch the thing up. Of course, that doesn't exactly help the
folks who don't have their PS3's online. Also heard they outright
cancelled release in Europe. I'm sure that'll go over well.


-Will
  #17  
Old April 22nd 11, 04:44 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Andrew MacPherson[_2_]
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Posts: 287
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

(William Bradshaw) wrote:

> I should probably get in touch with the guys at Sim Racing Tonight
> and ask 'em not to review what is currently out for Top Sim Car.


:-) To be harsh but fair, I'm not sure many people pay much attention to SRT. I
kind of appreciate their efforts without actually finding them very useful. They
fall into the same category as all other kinds of 'official' reviewing, where they
can't afford to bite the hand that feeds them. And as the community feeds them zero
in this instance that's fair enough!

My own review of the mod goes something along the lines of... "good grief! I can't
believe how much easier to drive these are than iRacing's cars!" This may or may
not be a good thing. :-)

> I think most people (AKA sim racers) can agree that graphics
> doesn't define a sim, but the physics in the background. So far,
> it's been promising from their updates.


Oh absolutely. iRacing have proved, among other things, that you certainly don't
have to have flash-bang-whizzy graphics effects to be satisfyingly immersive.

Having said that, in the long, lonely races I tended to have I would have
appreciated a helicopter flying over occasionally to break the monotony. :->

> Frankly, I got tired of the NSS cars not reacting as the real
> life counterparts do!


Which is a very good reason to lack motivation.

> That, and I'm tired of seeing huge numbers of VHR
> servers on the in-game server listing. lol.


:-) I can imagine that must be pretty demoralising. As a past master of wasted time
on under-appreciated projects I can feel a little of your pain.

> Agreed. It's kind of strange of them to hype up the great damage
> modeling and graphics, but not care about the physics so much.


The same mystery applies to so many projects, including my current experience of
Shift2. You'd think by now, with so much processor power available, even on
consoles (compared to early sims), it would be relatively "easy" to approximate
some kind of reality. Not iRacing standards, but good enough.

I really do think those darned hand-held game controllers are to blame. If we were
serious about improving sim racing we'd develop the very best, cheapest handheld
controller, boosting the analogue stick controls in some clever way so that much
better car control was possible, meaning devs had to work a little harder at car
control... which, being realistic, would probably mean they'd just boost the aids.
But a man can dream!

> Also heard they outright cancelled release in Europe.


Well, oval racing really *is* completely unknown to and ignored by most Europeans,
so it was probably never going to sell. However the PS3 version isn't region locked,
so we can at least import it if we want. I just don't want at current prices.

Which I guess is where the NSS mod comes in.

Mmm... enough gossip from me I think. Time to go explore Shift2 a little more.

Andrew McP
  #18  
Old April 23rd 11, 05:51 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
William Bradshaw
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Posts: 3
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

On 4/21/2011 10:44 PM, Andrew MacPherson wrote:
> (William Bradshaw) wrote:
>
>> I should probably get in touch with the guys at Sim Racing Tonight
>> and ask 'em not to review what is currently out for Top Sim Car.

>
> :-) To be harsh but fair, I'm not sure many people pay much attention to SRT. I
> kind of appreciate their efforts without actually finding them very useful. They
> fall into the same category as all other kinds of 'official' reviewing, where they
> can't afford to bite the hand that feeds them. And as the community feeds them zero
> in this instance that's fair enough!
>
> My own review of the mod goes something along the lines of... "good grief! I can't
> believe how much easier to drive these are than iRacing's cars!" This may or may
> not be a good thing. :-)


Truth be told, I've recently renewed my iRacing for a month and bought
their NASCAR Cup car...the Impala A or whatever they call it. Granted,
I'm still using a Momo wheel and Act Labs pedals, but no damn way is
that car realistic in regards to wheel input. With the Momo, the damn
thing is just way too twitchy to handle.

A pal of mine works for NASCAR and has given me some info about what
range the current springs are used in real life Cup series. Tried to use
those numbers and had zero success with a stable car. Those stiff front
springs are not used this day in age, and that has been an issue with
their software since NR2003 came out.

Personally, I hate to pay for that kind of inaccuracy. I'm hedging bets
on the new tire model. Sounds good, can't wait to try it.

>> I think most people (AKA sim racers) can agree that graphics
>> doesn't define a sim, but the physics in the background. So far,
>> it's been promising from their updates.

>
> Oh absolutely. iRacing have proved, among other things, that you certainly don't
> have to have flash-bang-whizzy graphics effects to be satisfyingly immersive.
>
> Having said that, in the long, lonely races I tended to have I would have
> appreciated a helicopter flying over occasionally to break the monotony. :->


I know the feeling!

>> Frankly, I got tired of the NSS cars not reacting as the real
>> life counterparts do!

>
> Which is a very good reason to lack motivation.
>
>> That, and I'm tired of seeing huge numbers of VHR
>> servers on the in-game server listing. lol.

>
> :-) I can imagine that must be pretty demoralising. As a past master of wasted time
> on under-appreciated projects I can feel a little of your pain.


It has been in the past, as far as I've heard from Alley. I'm just
focused on releasing as close to a 1:1 mod as I can and let the chips
fall where they may. NSS seems to be quite the underdog, though.
Accepted in some groups, but never really gained the hold like SCE or VHR.

>> Agreed. It's kind of strange of them to hype up the great damage
>> modeling and graphics, but not care about the physics so much.

>
> The same mystery applies to so many projects, including my current experience of
> Shift2. You'd think by now, with so much processor power available, even on
> consoles (compared to early sims), it would be relatively "easy" to approximate
> some kind of reality. Not iRacing standards, but good enough.
>
> I really do think those darned hand-held game controllers are to blame. If we were
> serious about improving sim racing we'd develop the very best, cheapest handheld
> controller, boosting the analogue stick controls in some clever way so that much
> better car control was possible, meaning devs had to work a little harder at car
> control... which, being realistic, would probably mean they'd just boost the aids.
> But a man can dream!


Even with consoles, it's easy to properly port over from PC to console
if they do the input correctly. But nobody does. But yeah, I feel like a
lot of 'em today are more focused on the eye candy and would prefer to
ease up on the realism factor. Granted, kids today are spoiled by high
rez textures. So I doubt they would accept solid physics and graphics
from 2005. I still find it hard to believe that Gran Turismo 5 is hailed
as the kind of console sim racers.

>> Also heard they outright cancelled release in Europe.

>
> Well, oval racing really *is* completely unknown to and ignored by most Europeans,
> so it was probably never going to sell. However the PS3 version isn't region locked,
> so we can at least import it if we want. I just don't want at current prices.


Agreed, at least it isn't region locked...like you said. I've seen a
number of posts where folks over there were quite upset over the
announcement. IMO, that company needs all the support they can get.
Especially since the dev's themselves are based in Europe.


-Will
  #19  
Old April 25th 11, 04:34 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Andrew MacPherson[_2_]
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Posts: 287
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

(William Bradshaw) wrote:

> no damn way is that car realistic in regards to wheel input. With
> the Momo, the damn thing is just way too twitchy to handle.


The ImpA has always had handling issues which I've put down to too much power and
too little grip (like the V8 on the road side). That may be realistic, but it's
never been a popular drive on iRacing, when it's supposed to be the pinnacle of
achievement.

That's why iRacing "2" (oh how I laughed) is changing that car first. It's
important for their marketing and sporting pretensions that this car is popular
ASAP.

I enjoyed the ImpB fixed races, but only because they were shorter and gave me an
easy $7 participation discount. :-)

> Personally, I hate to pay for that kind of inaccuracy. I'm hedging
> bets on the new tire model. Sounds good, can't wait to try it.


It'll be interesting. But Kaemmer has said in the past that it's not revolutionary.
And to be fair, most vehicles handle pretty darned well. At the edges of the
performance envelope there will always be issues because there's only so far code
can realistically replicate reality.

> NSS seems to be quite the underdog, though. Accepted in some
> groups, but never really gained the hold like SCE or VHR.


I think the problem is that we sim racers get fixed in our ways. We learn to handle
particular cars & tracks and they become our "home" where we feel most comfortable.
It takes something significantly, and obviously better (in some important way) to
persuade us to shift away from the community associated with the previous code were
were using.

That's why iRacing still feels like home to me even after four months away. The
cars, tracks, and concentration of people I've known in simming for many years, is
a tough combination to ignore. Which is why many people stay there even though they
don't particularly enjoy the service wrapped around that package.

It's also why iRacing always have to resort to clever tactics to try and persuade
people to join/rejoin/participate/stay. Someone there has been reading that book
about "nudge" psychology.

Anyway, for people in your position (and rFactor has so many mods there must be
many, many people in your position!) finding a compelling "USP" is very tough. Your
code may prove to be better in many ways, but it has to be superior in an obvious
way before it'll bounce people out of their existing rut and into yours.

Good luck. :-)

Andrew McP... currently rutless, unless lapping Brands Hatch too much in NKPro
counts as a rut.
  #20  
Old May 10th 11, 09:03 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Penis Boy
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Posts: 24
Default I was trying not to expect too much from rF2, but...

NSS blew moose cock. Thats why noone ran it. Started off bad with that
weirdo Joe and kept getting worse. VHR is much more real
 




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