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Dodge 2.5L eats another head (and how long is the bottom end good for)



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 16th 04, 04:27 PM
Bob Fourney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dodge 2.5L eats another head (and how long is the bottom end good for)

Hello,

The short story, a '94 Caravan w/ the 2.5 liter engine has destroyed a
head a year for the past 3 years. It's got 116,000 miles on the
bottom end, has had water in the oil for 2 very brief periods. How
can the bottom end be expected to last? It had water in the rear
piston for over a week, with some minor sticky stuff on that cylinder
wall, I'm guessing I can hone it out and it'll be OK. I have no idea
what the compression is (it runs fine, but I plan to measure
compression when I y the plugs, but have the head off every 15K miles
and haven't gone through a set of plugs w/out changing the head
yet....)



Longer story:

Van was bought used, from a dealer. It was leaking oil when we
test drove it. He changed the head gasket before we bought it (and
stated that the timing belt looked brand new, so maybe this wasn't the
first head). I ran it for a year or so, and had an oil leak that I
thought was head-gasket related (but no water in the oil, and good
compression then). I pulled the head, and my machinist pointed out
small cracks between the valves for each cylinder. I bought a
remanufactured head (and later was told I should have ignored those
cracks and put the old head back on--wish I had done that!).

The rebuilt head lasted one year, then I had water in the oil and
steam in the exhaust. This time the small (1/8 inch, guessing) water
ports between each
piston were badly eroded, about the size of a dime and expanding into
one (I
think it was the front) piston, very close to reaching the other
three. The
company (some outfit in Canada) replaced it for free, saying it was
defective.

The block was square at that time, so I put a different rebuilt head
on. (Used new bolts each and every time) Now,
a year and 16K miles later, the same problem. Overheated, water in
oil, steam
in exhaust. I pull the head, the same erosion around those ports.
AFter the
first one I flushed the cooling system, even used some of that
prestone flush
stuff, and ran lots of clear water through. Then filled with
distilled water
and Prestone. I added ground straps to the head, and the block, and
other
places (based on different reccomendations I got here). None of this
seemed
to help. It did overheat under hard use this time, up and down
mountains
on a cool night after running all day. The driver didn't note the
tempurature
guage until after the "check guages, idiot" light and buzzer went off.
She
claims she was driving responsibly and in the correct gear (it's a 5
speed,
part of why I'd like to save it). I had been driving it earlier, in
the heat
of the day, running the AC (but on the plains) and the temp guage was
steady on
the cool end of the normal range. [I don't want to place blame, but
if she
killed it I'd be more inclined to fix it than if it just died for
spite. Looking at the head, I think it was car related, not driver
error]


So, will a new head from a different company fix this, and how long
will the
bottom end last? I haven't checked prices, but am guessing it'll cost
about
$600 for head and gasket set.


Would a long block be a better idea? See advertised for $1300 or so,
I'd need
more gaskets and time, call it $1500 (and can somebody reccomend a
source?) This is probably what the entire van is worth (if that), but
everything else seems to be OK, and I like the stick shift...

Is the car haunted, and generating acid or failing to cool somehow and
it
it should just be pushed off into the trees and abandoned?


Ideas? Advice? Opinions?


Thanks in advance,


Bob
Ads
  #2  
Old August 20th 04, 05:46 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I assume this is not a turbo charged engine? With the way you are going
through heads, you would think it has to have a turbo. I am sure it does
not.

I have several thoughts on this and of course one of them is , Is the block
straight? But more so then that is , What kind and brand of head gasket was
used?

I believe that your 2.5 is a derivative of the 2.2. That said, I have a 20
year old 2.2 engine, it is an intercooler turbo. I mention this because they
are notorious for blowing head gaskets and having cracking problems just
like you mentioned.
Information I gathered from the Shelby Dodge groups and my experience, was
that there where a couple of things to be sure of when replacing the head
gasket.
New bolts was one of them( you mentioned you did that), but more important
was the proper torque of them. The procedure calls for you to torque them to
spec by sequence and then to give them an extra quarter turn. I believe it
was found that many a repeat gasket failure was due to not giving the bolts
the extra quarter turn. I never assume a mechanic knows this unless he is a
specialist in the 2.2/ 2.5 family of engines. Otherwise, the production shop
mechanic will just follow what he believes to be standard replacement
procedure. That won't work because from transmission, engine to bumper,
Mopars are different
But probably more important then that was the use of the better or proper
head gasket. Do not assume the guy at the shop or dealership shop knows the
right gasket to use. In fact I believe that the standard replacement factory
gasket is prone to failure.
The Gasket I used is a Felpro HS 9296PT. I have run more then 20 pounds of
turbo boost with no failure of the head gasket.
I would also always replace the therostat and flush and pressure check the
cooling system when replacing a head gasket. Hope this helps

Jeff York
85 Dodge CS600 Shelby'ized Turbo II convertible
01 PT Cruiser
99 GC Sport
02 KR-2 Porsche Powered Experimental airplane

"Bob Fourney" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello,
>
> The short story, a '94 Caravan w/ the 2.5 liter engine has destroyed a
> head a year for the past 3 years. It's got 116,000 miles on the
> bottom end, has had water in the oil for 2 very brief periods. How
> can the bottom end be expected to last? It had water in the rear
> piston for over a week, with some minor sticky stuff on that cylinder
> wall, I'm guessing I can hone it out and it'll be OK. I have no idea
> what the compression is (it runs fine, but I plan to measure
> compression when I y the plugs, but have the head off every 15K miles
> and haven't gone through a set of plugs w/out changing the head
> yet....)
>
>
>
> Longer story:
>
> Van was bought used, from a dealer. It was leaking oil when we
> test drove it. He changed the head gasket before we bought it (and
> stated that the timing belt looked brand new, so maybe this wasn't the
> first head). I ran it for a year or so, and had an oil leak that I
> thought was head-gasket related (but no water in the oil, and good
> compression then). I pulled the head, and my machinist pointed out
> small cracks between the valves for each cylinder. I bought a
> remanufactured head (and later was told I should have ignored those
> cracks and put the old head back on--wish I had done that!).
>
> The rebuilt head lasted one year, then I had water in the oil and
> steam in the exhaust. This time the small (1/8 inch, guessing) water
> ports between each
> piston were badly eroded, about the size of a dime and expanding into
> one (I
> think it was the front) piston, very close to reaching the other
> three. The
> company (some outfit in Canada) replaced it for free, saying it was
> defective.
>
> The block was square at that time, so I put a different rebuilt head
> on. (Used new bolts each and every time) Now,
> a year and 16K miles later, the same problem. Overheated, water in
> oil, steam
> in exhaust. I pull the head, the same erosion around those ports.
> AFter the
> first one I flushed the cooling system, even used some of that
> prestone flush
> stuff, and ran lots of clear water through. Then filled with
> distilled water
> and Prestone. I added ground straps to the head, and the block, and
> other
> places (based on different reccomendations I got here). None of this
> seemed
> to help. It did overheat under hard use this time, up and down
> mountains
> on a cool night after running all day. The driver didn't note the
> tempurature
> guage until after the "check guages, idiot" light and buzzer went off.
> She
> claims she was driving responsibly and in the correct gear (it's a 5
> speed,
> part of why I'd like to save it). I had been driving it earlier, in
> the heat
> of the day, running the AC (but on the plains) and the temp guage was
> steady on
> the cool end of the normal range. [I don't want to place blame, but
> if she
> killed it I'd be more inclined to fix it than if it just died for
> spite. Looking at the head, I think it was car related, not driver
> error]
>
>
> So, will a new head from a different company fix this, and how long
> will the
> bottom end last? I haven't checked prices, but am guessing it'll cost
> about
> $600 for head and gasket set.
>
>
> Would a long block be a better idea? See advertised for $1300 or so,
> I'd need
> more gaskets and time, call it $1500 (and can somebody reccomend a
> source?) This is probably what the entire van is worth (if that), but
> everything else seems to be OK, and I like the stick shift...
>
> Is the car haunted, and generating acid or failing to cool somehow and
> it
> it should just be pushed off into the trees and abandoned?
>
>
> Ideas? Advice? Opinions?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Bob



  #3  
Old August 20th 04, 05:46 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I assume this is not a turbo charged engine? With the way you are going
through heads, you would think it has to have a turbo. I am sure it does
not.

I have several thoughts on this and of course one of them is , Is the block
straight? But more so then that is , What kind and brand of head gasket was
used?

I believe that your 2.5 is a derivative of the 2.2. That said, I have a 20
year old 2.2 engine, it is an intercooler turbo. I mention this because they
are notorious for blowing head gaskets and having cracking problems just
like you mentioned.
Information I gathered from the Shelby Dodge groups and my experience, was
that there where a couple of things to be sure of when replacing the head
gasket.
New bolts was one of them( you mentioned you did that), but more important
was the proper torque of them. The procedure calls for you to torque them to
spec by sequence and then to give them an extra quarter turn. I believe it
was found that many a repeat gasket failure was due to not giving the bolts
the extra quarter turn. I never assume a mechanic knows this unless he is a
specialist in the 2.2/ 2.5 family of engines. Otherwise, the production shop
mechanic will just follow what he believes to be standard replacement
procedure. That won't work because from transmission, engine to bumper,
Mopars are different
But probably more important then that was the use of the better or proper
head gasket. Do not assume the guy at the shop or dealership shop knows the
right gasket to use. In fact I believe that the standard replacement factory
gasket is prone to failure.
The Gasket I used is a Felpro HS 9296PT. I have run more then 20 pounds of
turbo boost with no failure of the head gasket.
I would also always replace the therostat and flush and pressure check the
cooling system when replacing a head gasket. Hope this helps

Jeff York
85 Dodge CS600 Shelby'ized Turbo II convertible
01 PT Cruiser
99 GC Sport
02 KR-2 Porsche Powered Experimental airplane

"Bob Fourney" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello,
>
> The short story, a '94 Caravan w/ the 2.5 liter engine has destroyed a
> head a year for the past 3 years. It's got 116,000 miles on the
> bottom end, has had water in the oil for 2 very brief periods. How
> can the bottom end be expected to last? It had water in the rear
> piston for over a week, with some minor sticky stuff on that cylinder
> wall, I'm guessing I can hone it out and it'll be OK. I have no idea
> what the compression is (it runs fine, but I plan to measure
> compression when I y the plugs, but have the head off every 15K miles
> and haven't gone through a set of plugs w/out changing the head
> yet....)
>
>
>
> Longer story:
>
> Van was bought used, from a dealer. It was leaking oil when we
> test drove it. He changed the head gasket before we bought it (and
> stated that the timing belt looked brand new, so maybe this wasn't the
> first head). I ran it for a year or so, and had an oil leak that I
> thought was head-gasket related (but no water in the oil, and good
> compression then). I pulled the head, and my machinist pointed out
> small cracks between the valves for each cylinder. I bought a
> remanufactured head (and later was told I should have ignored those
> cracks and put the old head back on--wish I had done that!).
>
> The rebuilt head lasted one year, then I had water in the oil and
> steam in the exhaust. This time the small (1/8 inch, guessing) water
> ports between each
> piston were badly eroded, about the size of a dime and expanding into
> one (I
> think it was the front) piston, very close to reaching the other
> three. The
> company (some outfit in Canada) replaced it for free, saying it was
> defective.
>
> The block was square at that time, so I put a different rebuilt head
> on. (Used new bolts each and every time) Now,
> a year and 16K miles later, the same problem. Overheated, water in
> oil, steam
> in exhaust. I pull the head, the same erosion around those ports.
> AFter the
> first one I flushed the cooling system, even used some of that
> prestone flush
> stuff, and ran lots of clear water through. Then filled with
> distilled water
> and Prestone. I added ground straps to the head, and the block, and
> other
> places (based on different reccomendations I got here). None of this
> seemed
> to help. It did overheat under hard use this time, up and down
> mountains
> on a cool night after running all day. The driver didn't note the
> tempurature
> guage until after the "check guages, idiot" light and buzzer went off.
> She
> claims she was driving responsibly and in the correct gear (it's a 5
> speed,
> part of why I'd like to save it). I had been driving it earlier, in
> the heat
> of the day, running the AC (but on the plains) and the temp guage was
> steady on
> the cool end of the normal range. [I don't want to place blame, but
> if she
> killed it I'd be more inclined to fix it than if it just died for
> spite. Looking at the head, I think it was car related, not driver
> error]
>
>
> So, will a new head from a different company fix this, and how long
> will the
> bottom end last? I haven't checked prices, but am guessing it'll cost
> about
> $600 for head and gasket set.
>
>
> Would a long block be a better idea? See advertised for $1300 or so,
> I'd need
> more gaskets and time, call it $1500 (and can somebody reccomend a
> source?) This is probably what the entire van is worth (if that), but
> everything else seems to be OK, and I like the stick shift...
>
> Is the car haunted, and generating acid or failing to cool somehow and
> it
> it should just be pushed off into the trees and abandoned?
>
>
> Ideas? Advice? Opinions?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Bob



  #4  
Old August 26th 04, 10:46 PM
Bob Fourney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> wrote in message >...
> I assume this is not a turbo charged engine


No turbo
>
> I have several thoughts on this and of course one of them is , Is the block
> straight?


It was the last two times. With a machinists straight edge, I could
sometimes squeeze an .002 feeler guage at the lowest spots. I've
moved and don't have access to machinist friends (yet) in the new
town.

> What kind and brand of head gasket was used?



It was a Fel Pro, don't know part #. Came in a set w/ all the other
goodies (manifold gaskets, valve cover, etc
>
>
> New bolts was one of them( you mentioned you did that), but more important
> was the proper torque of them. The procedure calls for you to torque them to
> spec by sequence and then to give them an extra quarter turn. I believe it
> was found that many a repeat gasket failure was due to not giving the bolts
> the extra quarter turn. I never assume a mechanic knows this unless he is a
> specialist in the 2.2/ 2.5 family of engines. Otherwise, the production shop
> mechanic will just follow what he believes to be standard replacement
> proc


I did it myself, and followed the procedure in the shop manual (as
you described above).

> Do not assume the guy at the shop or dealership shop knows the
> right gasket to use. In fact I believe that the standard replacement factory
> gasket is prone to failure.
> The Gasket I used is a Felpro HS 9296PT. I have run more then 20 pounds of


Does Fel Pro have both, or is the fel pro gasket that fits the
correct one?


> I would also always replace the therostat and flush and pressure check the
> cooling system when replacing a head gasket. Hope this helps


I flushed, but didn't pressure check. It ran for 16,000 miles w/ no
overheating or bubbling, so I suspect it held pressure OK.


If you want to see pictures of the failure, send me an email address
and I'll send them too you. Looks like the tiny water ports were sand
blasted.
  #5  
Old August 26th 04, 10:46 PM
Bob Fourney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> wrote in message >...
> I assume this is not a turbo charged engine


No turbo
>
> I have several thoughts on this and of course one of them is , Is the block
> straight?


It was the last two times. With a machinists straight edge, I could
sometimes squeeze an .002 feeler guage at the lowest spots. I've
moved and don't have access to machinist friends (yet) in the new
town.

> What kind and brand of head gasket was used?



It was a Fel Pro, don't know part #. Came in a set w/ all the other
goodies (manifold gaskets, valve cover, etc
>
>
> New bolts was one of them( you mentioned you did that), but more important
> was the proper torque of them. The procedure calls for you to torque them to
> spec by sequence and then to give them an extra quarter turn. I believe it
> was found that many a repeat gasket failure was due to not giving the bolts
> the extra quarter turn. I never assume a mechanic knows this unless he is a
> specialist in the 2.2/ 2.5 family of engines. Otherwise, the production shop
> mechanic will just follow what he believes to be standard replacement
> proc


I did it myself, and followed the procedure in the shop manual (as
you described above).

> Do not assume the guy at the shop or dealership shop knows the
> right gasket to use. In fact I believe that the standard replacement factory
> gasket is prone to failure.
> The Gasket I used is a Felpro HS 9296PT. I have run more then 20 pounds of


Does Fel Pro have both, or is the fel pro gasket that fits the
correct one?


> I would also always replace the therostat and flush and pressure check the
> cooling system when replacing a head gasket. Hope this helps


I flushed, but didn't pressure check. It ran for 16,000 miles w/ no
overheating or bubbling, so I suspect it held pressure OK.


If you want to see pictures of the failure, send me an email address
and I'll send them too you. Looks like the tiny water ports were sand
blasted.
  #6  
Old August 28th 04, 01:07 AM
Rick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Go here if you haven't been.

http://www.allpar.com/eek/headgasket.html

There may be some tips that could help. I thought I had read at one time
that some of the head bolts from Chrysler were slightly too long for the
holes in the block and would bottom out. I think it was one or two
particular holes and only just a fraction of an inch. The solution was
simply to carefully grind a few threads off of the bolts. I'm sorry though,
I can't find the reference to this. I thought it was on the Allpar
website(see above) and it might be, but I couldn't find it at this moment.
The head bolts would torque down to specs OK when reinstalling the head, but
after a period of time with the heating and cooling cycles of running the
engine it would cause the head bolts to expand enough to bottom out slightly
and lose the torque on the head and eventually blow the head gasket. This
would probably be more so of a problem if you had your head and block
milled.

HTH
Rick






"Bob Fourney" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello,
>
> The short story, a '94 Caravan w/ the 2.5 liter engine has destroyed a
> head a year for the past 3 years. It's got 116,000 miles on the
> bottom end, has had water in the oil for 2 very brief periods. How
> can the bottom end be expected to last? It had water in the rear
> piston for over a week, with some minor sticky stuff on that cylinder
> wall, I'm guessing I can hone it out and it'll be OK. I have no idea
> what the compression is (it runs fine, but I plan to measure
> compression when I y the plugs, but have the head off every 15K miles
> and haven't gone through a set of plugs w/out changing the head
> yet....)
>
>
>
> Longer story:
>
> Van was bought used, from a dealer. It was leaking oil when we
> test drove it. He changed the head gasket before we bought it (and
> stated that the timing belt looked brand new, so maybe this wasn't the
> first head). I ran it for a year or so, and had an oil leak that I
> thought was head-gasket related (but no water in the oil, and good
> compression then). I pulled the head, and my machinist pointed out
> small cracks between the valves for each cylinder. I bought a
> remanufactured head (and later was told I should have ignored those
> cracks and put the old head back on--wish I had done that!).
>
> The rebuilt head lasted one year, then I had water in the oil and
> steam in the exhaust. This time the small (1/8 inch, guessing) water
> ports between each
> piston were badly eroded, about the size of a dime and expanding into
> one (I
> think it was the front) piston, very close to reaching the other
> three. The
> company (some outfit in Canada) replaced it for free, saying it was
> defective.
>
> The block was square at that time, so I put a different rebuilt head
> on. (Used new bolts each and every time) Now,
> a year and 16K miles later, the same problem. Overheated, water in
> oil, steam
> in exhaust. I pull the head, the same erosion around those ports.
> AFter the
> first one I flushed the cooling system, even used some of that
> prestone flush
> stuff, and ran lots of clear water through. Then filled with
> distilled water
> and Prestone. I added ground straps to the head, and the block, and
> other
> places (based on different reccomendations I got here). None of this
> seemed
> to help. It did overheat under hard use this time, up and down
> mountains
> on a cool night after running all day. The driver didn't note the
> tempurature
> guage until after the "check guages, idiot" light and buzzer went off.
> She
> claims she was driving responsibly and in the correct gear (it's a 5
> speed,
> part of why I'd like to save it). I had been driving it earlier, in
> the heat
> of the day, running the AC (but on the plains) and the temp guage was
> steady on
> the cool end of the normal range. [I don't want to place blame, but
> if she
> killed it I'd be more inclined to fix it than if it just died for
> spite. Looking at the head, I think it was car related, not driver
> error]
>
>
> So, will a new head from a different company fix this, and how long
> will the
> bottom end last? I haven't checked prices, but am guessing it'll cost
> about
> $600 for head and gasket set.
>
>
> Would a long block be a better idea? See advertised for $1300 or so,
> I'd need
> more gaskets and time, call it $1500 (and can somebody reccomend a
> source?) This is probably what the entire van is worth (if that), but
> everything else seems to be OK, and I like the stick shift...
>
> Is the car haunted, and generating acid or failing to cool somehow and
> it
> it should just be pushed off into the trees and abandoned?
>
>
> Ideas? Advice? Opinions?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Bob



  #7  
Old August 28th 04, 01:07 AM
Rick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Go here if you haven't been.

http://www.allpar.com/eek/headgasket.html

There may be some tips that could help. I thought I had read at one time
that some of the head bolts from Chrysler were slightly too long for the
holes in the block and would bottom out. I think it was one or two
particular holes and only just a fraction of an inch. The solution was
simply to carefully grind a few threads off of the bolts. I'm sorry though,
I can't find the reference to this. I thought it was on the Allpar
website(see above) and it might be, but I couldn't find it at this moment.
The head bolts would torque down to specs OK when reinstalling the head, but
after a period of time with the heating and cooling cycles of running the
engine it would cause the head bolts to expand enough to bottom out slightly
and lose the torque on the head and eventually blow the head gasket. This
would probably be more so of a problem if you had your head and block
milled.

HTH
Rick






"Bob Fourney" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello,
>
> The short story, a '94 Caravan w/ the 2.5 liter engine has destroyed a
> head a year for the past 3 years. It's got 116,000 miles on the
> bottom end, has had water in the oil for 2 very brief periods. How
> can the bottom end be expected to last? It had water in the rear
> piston for over a week, with some minor sticky stuff on that cylinder
> wall, I'm guessing I can hone it out and it'll be OK. I have no idea
> what the compression is (it runs fine, but I plan to measure
> compression when I y the plugs, but have the head off every 15K miles
> and haven't gone through a set of plugs w/out changing the head
> yet....)
>
>
>
> Longer story:
>
> Van was bought used, from a dealer. It was leaking oil when we
> test drove it. He changed the head gasket before we bought it (and
> stated that the timing belt looked brand new, so maybe this wasn't the
> first head). I ran it for a year or so, and had an oil leak that I
> thought was head-gasket related (but no water in the oil, and good
> compression then). I pulled the head, and my machinist pointed out
> small cracks between the valves for each cylinder. I bought a
> remanufactured head (and later was told I should have ignored those
> cracks and put the old head back on--wish I had done that!).
>
> The rebuilt head lasted one year, then I had water in the oil and
> steam in the exhaust. This time the small (1/8 inch, guessing) water
> ports between each
> piston were badly eroded, about the size of a dime and expanding into
> one (I
> think it was the front) piston, very close to reaching the other
> three. The
> company (some outfit in Canada) replaced it for free, saying it was
> defective.
>
> The block was square at that time, so I put a different rebuilt head
> on. (Used new bolts each and every time) Now,
> a year and 16K miles later, the same problem. Overheated, water in
> oil, steam
> in exhaust. I pull the head, the same erosion around those ports.
> AFter the
> first one I flushed the cooling system, even used some of that
> prestone flush
> stuff, and ran lots of clear water through. Then filled with
> distilled water
> and Prestone. I added ground straps to the head, and the block, and
> other
> places (based on different reccomendations I got here). None of this
> seemed
> to help. It did overheat under hard use this time, up and down
> mountains
> on a cool night after running all day. The driver didn't note the
> tempurature
> guage until after the "check guages, idiot" light and buzzer went off.
> She
> claims she was driving responsibly and in the correct gear (it's a 5
> speed,
> part of why I'd like to save it). I had been driving it earlier, in
> the heat
> of the day, running the AC (but on the plains) and the temp guage was
> steady on
> the cool end of the normal range. [I don't want to place blame, but
> if she
> killed it I'd be more inclined to fix it than if it just died for
> spite. Looking at the head, I think it was car related, not driver
> error]
>
>
> So, will a new head from a different company fix this, and how long
> will the
> bottom end last? I haven't checked prices, but am guessing it'll cost
> about
> $600 for head and gasket set.
>
>
> Would a long block be a better idea? See advertised for $1300 or so,
> I'd need
> more gaskets and time, call it $1500 (and can somebody reccomend a
> source?) This is probably what the entire van is worth (if that), but
> everything else seems to be OK, and I like the stick shift...
>
> Is the car haunted, and generating acid or failing to cool somehow and
> it
> it should just be pushed off into the trees and abandoned?
>
>
> Ideas? Advice? Opinions?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Bob



 




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