Timing belt issue

1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in the
process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and tied
together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also marked the
gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the cam marks but it
seems to be running rough and pinging alot when there is a load on it,
driving. What other way is there to adjust the cams? Thanks.

Mac > wrote:

> 1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in
> the process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and
> tied together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also
> marked the gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the
> cam marks but it seems to be running rough and pinging alot when
> there is a load on it, driving. What other way is there to adjust
> the cams? Thanks.

See if this helps: http://www.miata.net/garage/timingbelt.html


--
XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project:
http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

"XS11E" > wrote in message
...
> Mac > wrote:
>
>> 1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in
>> the process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and
>> tied together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also
>> marked the gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the
>> cam marks but it seems to be running rough and pinging alot when
>> there is a load on it, driving. What other way is there to adjust
>> the cams? Thanks.
>
> See if this helps: http://www.miata.net/garage/timingbelt.html
>
>
> --
> XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> The Usenet Improvement Project:
> http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

The two times I have done this (a 1.6 and a 1.8) I was disappointed with the
ease and accuracy of the alignment marks. There's too much distance between
the marks and looking at different angles can easily give you a one tooth
difference. My guess is that you are off one tooth, Look it over real good
and move it the direction that looks most likely. I'm thinking that will be
pretty obvious as going the other direction (from the point you are) will
look pretty obviously off.

Seems to me that Mazda could have done significantly better on this issue.

Chris
99BBB

All taken care of. we found the right marks and corrected the issue.
runs a lot better now.


On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:56 -0400, Mac > wrote:

>1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in the
>process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and tied
>together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also marked the
>gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the cam marks but it
>seems to be running rough and pinging alot when there is a load on it,
>driving. What other way is there to adjust the cams? Thanks.

On Saturday, July 21, 2012 10:51:06 AM UTC-7, Mac wrote:
> All taken care of. we found the right marks and corrected the issue.
>
> runs a lot better now.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:56 -0400, Mac > wrote:
>
>
>
> >1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in the
>
> >process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and tied
>
> >together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also marked the
>
> >gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the cam marks but it
>
> >seems to be running rough and pinging alot when there is a load on it,
>
> >driving. What other way is there to adjust the cams? Thanks.



I know my limitations>>LOL. When it comes time for my 2000 Miata, I will give it to a PRO. Strange here in Calif. it says to replace at 105,000, but to check it at 60,000. Well heck, it would take nearly just as much labor cost just to get to it to check it, that at that time I might as well have it done. but not sure at that time (60,000) if it really be worth also having the water pump replaced also, at 105K I would, but not 60K???!!! The car is only at 38K now

On 8/23/2012 3:13 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2012 10:51:06 AM UTC-7, Mac wrote:
>> All taken care of. we found the right marks and corrected the issue.
>>
>> runs a lot better now.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:56 -0400, Mac > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> 1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in the
>>
>>> process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and tied
>>
>>> together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also marked the
>>
>>> gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the cam marks but it
>>
>>> seems to be running rough and pinging alot when there is a load on it,
>>
>>> driving. What other way is there to adjust the cams? Thanks.
>
>
>
> I know my limitations>>LOL. When it comes time for my 2000 Miata, I will give it to a PRO. Strange here in Calif. it says to replace at 105,000, but to check it at 60,000. Well heck, it would take nearly just as much labor cost just to get to it to check it, that at that time I might as well have it done. but not sure at that time (60,000) if it really be worth also having the water pump replaced also, at 105K I would, but not 60K???!!! The car is only at 38K now
>

My 99 had it's belt, idler, tensioner, and water pump changed at about
60,000, mainly due to the fact that it's turbo'ed.
The belt showed very slight signs of wear, with the teeth slightly more
rounded than a brand new belt. The used belt was slightly longer than
the new belt and prevented using the slide on replacement method. One
idler or tensioner bearing was quite rough, so both were changed, since
I had the parts in hand.
The camshaft seals were not changed, since there was no sign of leakage.
The crud filter on the underside of the cam cover was cleaned, as it had
noticeable crud inside. Small low spots on the top of the head had
pools of very yucky oil, so that was also removed.

Original assembly turned out to be one belt tooth off. To recover, I
located TDC, checked against the various marks, and re assembled. Don't
forget to use RTV when reinstalling the cam cover, particularly at the
rear of the cover.

The big concern is to get the crank key really locked down. to this day,
I'm not sure that some minor variation in timing might be caused by
this. It's hard to tell, since the waste spark system can obscure timing
light results. We also had to reuse the original key, since the key
supplied by the Mazda dealer (30 miles away) didn't fit.

Read the service note concerning the changes from the original service
manual about proper crank key installation and torques.

On Friday, August 24, 2012 3:33:22 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:
> On 8/23/2012 3:13 PM, wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, July 21, 2012 10:51:06 AM UTC-7, Mac wrote:
>
> >> All taken care of. we found the right marks and corrected the issue.
>
> >>
>
> >> runs a lot better now.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:56 -0400, Mac > wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>> 1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in the
>
> >>
>
> >>> process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and tied
>
> >>
>
> >>> together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also marked the
>
> >>
>
> >>> gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the cam marks but it
>
> >>
>
> >>> seems to be running rough and pinging alot when there is a load on it,
>
> >>
>
> >>> driving. What other way is there to adjust the cams? Thanks.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I know my limitations>>LOL. When it comes time for my 2000 Miata, I will give it to a PRO. Strange here in Calif. it says to replace at 105,000, but to check it at 60,000. Well heck, it would take nearly just as much labor cost just to get to it to check it, that at that time I might as well have it done. but not sure at that time (60,000) if it really be worth also having the water pump replaced also, at 105K I would, but not 60K???!!! The car is only at 38K now
>
> >
>
>
>
> My 99 had it's belt, idler, tensioner, and water pump changed at about
>
> 60,000, mainly due to the fact that it's turbo'ed.
>
> The belt showed very slight signs of wear, with the teeth slightly more
>
> rounded than a brand new belt. The used belt was slightly longer than
>
> the new belt and prevented using the slide on replacement method. One
>
> idler or tensioner bearing was quite rough, so both were changed, since
>
> I had the parts in hand.
>
> The camshaft seals were not changed, since there was no sign of leakage.
>
> The crud filter on the underside of the cam cover was cleaned, as it had
>
> noticeable crud inside. Small low spots on the top of the head had
>
> pools of very yucky oil, so that was also removed.
>
>
>
> Original assembly turned out to be one belt tooth off. To recover, I
>
> located TDC, checked against the various marks, and re assembled. Don't
>
> forget to use RTV when reinstalling the cam cover, particularly at the
>
> rear of the cover.
>
>
>
> The big concern is to get the crank key really locked down. to this day,
>
> I'm not sure that some minor variation in timing might be caused by
>
> this. It's hard to tell, since the waste spark system can obscure timing
>
> light results. We also had to reuse the original key, since the key
>
> supplied by the Mazda dealer (30 miles away) didn't fit.
>
>
>
> Read the service note concerning the changes from the original service
>
> manual about proper crank key installation and torques.

Charlie>>All good points but nothing that I would ever consider doing myself leaving it to the PROs. Almost sounds like something that you should let the Miata dealer/service dept, do, rather than a general all around mechanic's shop, right??

On 8/24/2012 11:44 PM, wrote:
> On Friday, August 24, 2012 3:33:22 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:
>> On 8/23/2012 3:13 PM, wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, July 21, 2012 10:51:06 AM UTC-7, Mac wrote:
>>
>>>> All taken care of. we found the right marks and corrected the issue.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> runs a lot better now.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:56 -0400, Mac > wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> 1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in the
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and tied
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also marked the
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the cam marks but it
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> seems to be running rough and pinging alot when there is a load on it,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> driving. What other way is there to adjust the cams? Thanks.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I know my limitations>>LOL. When it comes time for my 2000 Miata, I will give it to a PRO. Strange here in Calif. it says to replace at 105,000, but to check it at 60,000. Well heck, it would take nearly just as much labor cost just to get to it to check it, that at that time I might as well have it done. but not sure at that time (60,000) if it really be worth also having the water pump replaced also, at 105K I would, but not 60K???!!! The car is only at 38K now
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> My 99 had it's belt, idler, tensioner, and water pump changed at about
>>
>> 60,000, mainly due to the fact that it's turbo'ed.
>>
>> The belt showed very slight signs of wear, with the teeth slightly more
>>
>> rounded than a brand new belt. The used belt was slightly longer than
>>
>> the new belt and prevented using the slide on replacement method. One
>>
>> idler or tensioner bearing was quite rough, so both were changed, since
>>
>> I had the parts in hand.
>>
>> The camshaft seals were not changed, since there was no sign of leakage.
>>
>> The crud filter on the underside of the cam cover was cleaned, as it had
>>
>> noticeable crud inside. Small low spots on the top of the head had
>>
>> pools of very yucky oil, so that was also removed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Original assembly turned out to be one belt tooth off. To recover, I
>>
>> located TDC, checked against the various marks, and re assembled. Don't
>>
>> forget to use RTV when reinstalling the cam cover, particularly at the
>>
>> rear of the cover.
>>
>>
>>
>> The big concern is to get the crank key really locked down. to this day,
>>
>> I'm not sure that some minor variation in timing might be caused by
>>
>> this. It's hard to tell, since the waste spark system can obscure timing
>>
>> light results. We also had to reuse the original key, since the key
>>
>> supplied by the Mazda dealer (30 miles away) didn't fit.
>>
>>
>>
>> Read the service note concerning the changes from the original service
>>
>> manual about proper crank key installation and torques.
>
> Charlie>>All good points but nothing that I would ever consider doing myself leaving it to the PROs. Almost sounds like something that you should let the Miata dealer/service dept, do, rather than a general all around mechanic's shop, right??
>

Let's just say that the "local" Mazda dealer is not known for "quality"
service. The really experienced and well trained mechanics retired, or
work someplace else. It's a small dealership, part of a large chain, and
last I looked, didn't have all the "required" factory tools to work on
Miata valve trains, and other things. (What shim kit, for one)
When I changed the 5th gear ratio in my 99's 5 speed, I ended up
borrowing a couple of specialty tools from one of the Toyota dealer's
mechanics.

On Friday, August 24, 2012 10:49:47 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:
> On 8/24/2012 11:44 PM, wrote:
>
> > On Friday, August 24, 2012 3:33:22 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:
>
> >> On 8/23/2012 3:13 PM, wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Saturday, July 21, 2012 10:51:06 AM UTC-7, Mac wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>> All taken care of. we found the right marks and corrected the issue.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> runs a lot better now.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:56 -0400, Mac > wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> 1990 Mazda Miata. Changed out the timing belt yesterday and in the
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> process got the cams off. Had the cams clamped in place and tied
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> together but the wrenches slipped. I know, should of also marked the
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> gears. After getting the belt on we aligned it by the cam marks but it
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> seems to be running rough and pinging alot when there is a load on it,
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> driving. What other way is there to adjust the cams? Thanks.
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> I know my limitations>>LOL. When it comes time for my 2000 Miata, I will give it to a PRO. Strange here in Calif. it says to replace at 105,000, but to check it at 60,000. Well heck, it would take nearly just as much labor cost just to get to it to check it, that at that time I might as well have it done. but not sure at that time (60,000) if it really be worth also having the water pump replaced also, at 105K I would, but not 60K???!!! The car is only at 38K now
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> My 99 had it's belt, idler, tensioner, and water pump changed at about
>
> >>
>
> >> 60,000, mainly due to the fact that it's turbo'ed.
>
> >>
>
> >> The belt showed very slight signs of wear, with the teeth slightly more
>
> >>
>
> >> rounded than a brand new belt. The used belt was slightly longer than
>
> >>
>
> >> the new belt and prevented using the slide on replacement method. One
>
> >>
>
> >> idler or tensioner bearing was quite rough, so both were changed, since
>
> >>
>
> >> I had the parts in hand.
>
> >>
>
> >> The camshaft seals were not changed, since there was no sign of leakage.
>
> >>
>
> >> The crud filter on the underside of the cam cover was cleaned, as it had
>
> >>
>
> >> noticeable crud inside. Small low spots on the top of the head had
>
> >>
>
> >> pools of very yucky oil, so that was also removed.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Original assembly turned out to be one belt tooth off. To recover, I
>
> >>
>
> >> located TDC, checked against the various marks, and re assembled. Don't
>
> >>
>
> >> forget to use RTV when reinstalling the cam cover, particularly at the
>
> >>
>
> >> rear of the cover.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> The big concern is to get the crank key really locked down. to this day,
>
> >>
>
> >> I'm not sure that some minor variation in timing might be caused by
>
> >>
>
> >> this. It's hard to tell, since the waste spark system can obscure timing
>
> >>
>
> >> light results. We also had to reuse the original key, since the key
>
> >>
>
> >> supplied by the Mazda dealer (30 miles away) didn't fit.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Read the service note concerning the changes from the original service
>
> >>
>
> >> manual about proper crank key installation and torques.
>
> >
>
> > Charlie>>All good points but nothing that I would ever consider doing myself leaving it to the PROs. Almost sounds like something that you should let the Miata dealer/service dept, do, rather than a general all around mechanic's shop, right??
>
> >
>
>
>
> Let's just say that the "local" Mazda dealer is not known for "quality"
>
> service. The really experienced and well trained mechanics retired, or
>
> work someplace else. It's a small dealership, part of a large chain, and
>
> last I looked, didn't have all the "required" factory tools to work on
>
> Miata valve trains, and other things. (What shim kit, for one)
>
> When I changed the 5th gear ratio in my 99's 5 speed, I ended up
>
> borrowing a couple of specialty tools from one of the Toyota dealer's
>
> mechanics.

Now you're scaring me>>LOL. When it comes time to have my valved checked/adjusted (Book says at 60,000 mi), should it be done at the Mazda dealership, or could any competent mechanic (Maybe recommended by "Click & Clack's" cartalk.com mechanic files, do that)??

>
> Let's just say that the "local" Mazda dealer is not known for "quality"
> service. The really experienced and well trained mechanics retired, or
> work someplace else. It's a small dealership, part of a large chain, and
> last I looked, didn't have all the "required" factory tools to work on
> Miata valve trains, and other things. (What shim kit, for one)
> When I changed the 5th gear ratio in my 99's 5 speed, I ended up borrowing
> a couple of specialty tools from one of the Toyota dealer's mechanics.

Charlie, You got my attention with your mention of changing the 5th gear
ratio! I've been dreaming of such a modification for years and always get
the same ridiculous answers from other people when I suggest such (apparent)
blasphemy.

Tell me more please. Feel free to send me a direct emails if you prefer, I
don't want to hijack this thread but, I really would like to discuss this
with you.

Thanks,
Chris
99BBBB