Oil leak in 1994 325is... am I getting hosed by my dealer?

I took my 1994 325is in to my BMW dealer with the following symptom:

rough engine behaviour when starting cold , but once warmed up , sounds
fine, normal..


after a numbe of 'standard' tests turned up nothing, they did a
compression test and came up with the following numbers ( which I
confess I have no idea re the meaning of:

leakage% 1=10 2=12 3=35 4=17 5=12 6=17

They said this cylinder 3's leakdown was not acceptable and that they
recommended an engine rebuild or replacement dur to 'suspected wear on
engine bottom end'.

I am your typical BMW owner I suppose because I seem to be unable to
sort thru all this, but I can't help but wonder if they are not giving
me a cheaper alternative because they want the 20 hours of labour at
$110/hr to put the new engine in.

I would really appreciate it if someone who understands what could be
going on in my engine could answer a few questions, like: Could this
really be the cause of my original complaint? what is 'suspected wear
on engine bottom end/? and , is there no cheaper alternative open?

One PS I must add is that 9 months ago I paid a non-BMW dealer $2600 to
fix a 'crack' in the engine block. I am about to take it back to him
and ask whether this purported oil problem is related to the work he
did. You can guess what his response will be. Can you offer any
suggestions on how I can approach this guy to avoid getting hosed by
him as well? Do you think there could be a connection between the two?

Many thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to comment. I value
your opinions, believe me.

In article .com>,
Freebase > wrote:
> They said this cylinder 3's leakdown was not acceptable and that they
> recommended an engine rebuild or replacement dur to 'suspected wear on
> engine bottom end'.

A leakdown test checks the crankshaft and bearings? How?

--
*Why isn't there mouse-flavoured cat food?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Sounds like a fuel mixture problem on startup. Engine needs extra gas
when cold, and it's not getting it.

Engine mechanical problems unlikely. Esp. "bottom end" or crankshaft.
Numbers provided mean nothing. A standard compression test would help.

What is the "oil problem"?

I don't think your problem is caused by prior work. 9 mos is a long
time.

Freebase wrote:
> I took my 1994 325is in to my BMW dealer with the following symptom:
>
> rough engine behaviour when starting cold , but once warmed up , sounds
> fine, normal..
>
>
> after a numbe of 'standard' tests turned up nothing, they did a
> compression test and came up with the following numbers ( which I
> confess I have no idea re the meaning of:
>
> leakage% 1=10 2=12 3=35 4=17 5=12 6=17
>
> They said this cylinder 3's leakdown was not acceptable and that they
> recommended an engine rebuild or replacement dur to 'suspected wear on
> engine bottom end'.
>
> I am your typical BMW owner I suppose because I seem to be unable to
> sort thru all this, but I can't help but wonder if they are not giving
> me a cheaper alternative because they want the 20 hours of labour at
> $110/hr to put the new engine in.
>
> I would really appreciate it if someone who understands what could be
> going on in my engine could answer a few questions, like: Could this
> really be the cause of my original complaint? what is 'suspected wear
> on engine bottom end/? and , is there no cheaper alternative open?
>
> One PS I must add is that 9 months ago I paid a non-BMW dealer $2600 to
> fix a 'crack' in the engine block. I am about to take it back to him
> and ask whether this purported oil problem is related to the work he
> did. You can guess what his response will be. Can you offer any
> suggestions on how I can approach this guy to avoid getting hosed by
> him as well? Do you think there could be a connection between the two?
>
> Many thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to comment. I value
> your opinions, believe me.
>

Drive away from that dealership and never return again.

Wear in the bottom end would mean that the crankshaft main and/or
connecting rod bearings have become worn and enlarged. This is usually
diagnosed by observing oil pressure and/or knocking noises.

There is no way in hell that they can tell you have a lower end problem
from a leakdown test. A leakdown test measures how quickly the
cylinders (top end) lose compression. This measures faulty ring and
valve sealing, not lower end bearing quality.

Get another opinion on your cold start problem from a reputable shop (I
would go with a good independent rather than a dealership for cost
reasons) and don't mention these prior findings. It is most likely some
sort of temperature sensor or possibly an intake vacuum leak.

--
-Fred W

The cylinder leakdown test is, according to the Bentley manual, the most
accurate diagnostic of the engines compression and not only tells you which
cylinders are leaking but where the air is going which is probably what led
them to say 'bottom end'. I don't think they really meant the bearings and
crank - more likely they meant rings as opposed to valves or head gasket.
Considering the potential cost of the repair it would certainly be prudent
to get another opinion - perhaps the first shop you mentioned might do it
for nothing to convince you that their previous work is not the culprit.

The leaking cylinder diagnosis fits pretty well with the symptoms you noted.
The spark plug in the bad cylinder tends to get fouled because its running
cold all the time and this causes it to miss when the engine is cold. Try
replacing that one spark plug, third from the front, to see if it fixes the
symptom of missing when cold. It won't fix the real problem but could
confirm their diagnosis if it starts missing again after a week or so. On
the other hand if it fixes it for several weeks you might consider putting
off the major repair until you get tired of replacing that plug.

It would help in forming an opinion to know how many miles you have on this
engine. The really big mystery is why you used the words oil leak in the
subject of your post. There is never any mention of an oil leak in your
discussion. I would like to hear more on that subject.



"Freebase" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I took my 1994 325is in to my BMW dealer with the following symptom:
>
> rough engine behaviour when starting cold , but once warmed up , sounds
> fine, normal..
>
>
> after a numbe of 'standard' tests turned up nothing, they did a
> compression test and came up with the following numbers ( which I
> confess I have no idea re the meaning of:
>
> leakage% 1=10 2=12 3=35 4=17 5=12 6=17
>
> They said this cylinder 3's leakdown was not acceptable and that they
> recommended an engine rebuild or replacement dur to 'suspected wear on
> engine bottom end'.
>
> I am your typical BMW owner I suppose because I seem to be unable to
> sort thru all this, but I can't help but wonder if they are not giving
> me a cheaper alternative because they want the 20 hours of labour at
> $110/hr to put the new engine in.
>
> I would really appreciate it if someone who understands what could be
> going on in my engine could answer a few questions, like: Could this
> really be the cause of my original complaint? what is 'suspected wear
> on engine bottom end/? and , is there no cheaper alternative open?
>
> One PS I must add is that 9 months ago I paid a non-BMW dealer $2600 to
> fix a 'crack' in the engine block. I am about to take it back to him
> and ask whether this purported oil problem is related to the work he
> did. You can guess what his response will be. Can you offer any
> suggestions on how I can approach this guy to avoid getting hosed by
> him as well? Do you think there could be a connection between the two?
>
> Many thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to comment. I value
> your opinions, believe me.
>

the answer is obviously: yes!

"dealer" and "getting hosed" go hand in hand.

In article <NBMFf.11475$%i3.6935@trnddc02>,
Jack > wrote:
> I don't think they really meant the bearings and crank - more likely
> they meant rings as opposed to valves or head gasket.

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I'd expect a dealer to use commonly accepted
terms. If it has bore or piston problems what's wrong with just saying
that?

--
*I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hi there and thank you all for your speedy and very helpful
information... at least my problem is now being explained in something
approaching 'english'.... a few noted that I did not describe anything
about the oil leak, so I will copy in here what it says about oil on
the diagnosis...bear in mind that I find it hard to trust this dealer (
they once quoted me $1500 to replace a jammed sunroof that my
daughter's friend fixed in five minutes), yet this is what they say, in
addtion to the aforementioned 'leakdown' info :

"during compression test, noticed oil spraying out of cylinder
#3..looked inside and noticed top of piston head covered in oil,,heard
air coming out of dipstick tube during #3 leakdown test...suspected
wear on engine bottom end....vehicle requires engine rebuild...or
replacement"


..also someone asked about mileage...the car has 210K on it and the
engine block crack was 'fixed' at about 190K...

I just want to say that I am very pleasantly surprised at how uesful
and informative the replies have been.. I should have started posting
my problems long ago ..maybe I wouldn't be sitting in the 'seat' I'm in
now!

Freebase wrote:
> Hi there and thank you all for your speedy and very helpful
> information... at least my problem is now being explained in something
> approaching 'english'.... a few noted that I did not describe anything
> about the oil leak, so I will copy in here what it says about oil on
> the diagnosis...bear in mind that I find it hard to trust this dealer (
> they once quoted me $1500 to replace a jammed sunroof that my
> daughter's friend fixed in five minutes), yet this is what they say, in
> addtion to the aforementioned 'leakdown' info :
>
> "during compression test, noticed oil spraying out of cylinder
> #3..looked inside and noticed top of piston head covered in oil,,heard
> air coming out of dipstick tube during #3 leakdown test...suspected
> wear on engine bottom end....vehicle requires engine rebuild...or
> replacement"
>
>
> .also someone asked about mileage...the car has 210K on it and the
> engine block crack was 'fixed' at about 190K...
>
> I just want to say that I am very pleasantly surprised at how uesful
> and informative the replies have been.. I should have started posting
> my problems long ago ..maybe I wouldn't be sitting in the 'seat' I'm in
> now!
>


OK, from the above, I would have concluded that there may be a blown
head gasket between the #3 cylinder and an oil galley (passageway).

When there is compression in that cylinder (as when doing the leakdown
test) it would send air out through the oil galley and cause gurgling up
from the dispstick as the crankcase is pressurized. When there is
vacuum inside the cylinder (such as during the intake stroke when
cranking during a compression check) it is likely to draw some oil into
the cylinder. If the leak is small, when the engine is cold it may
cause that cylinder to run rough, clearing up as the engine comes up to
temperature.

Considering this, and with 210k miles on the clock, I am inclined to
believe that they may (for the wrong reasons) be correct that your
engine may indeed need some TLC. But still, no matter what, I would
find someplace other than the stealership to get it properly sorted out.

Your best option may be to try and find a low(er) mileage engine at a
salvage yard.

--
-Fred W

Hi there, I posted some further info earlier but I don't see it so I' trying
it again. I apologize if it is repeated...

the engine has 210km on it, or 120,000 miles ... does that still put the
engine 'with one/two/three or more cylinders' in the graveyard or is there
still enough life left in it ( on average) to have it repaired ( if that' s
possible) .... that is , is there any alternative to replacing the engine
at a cost of$5K , for example someone mentioned 'blown head gasket'... I
assume this is in cylinder #3 as reported by my dealer, so could I just get
that gasket replaced ? presumably at much lower cost?


"Fred W" > wrote in message
...
> Freebase wrote:
> > Hi there and thank you all for your speedy and very helpful
> > information... at least my problem is now being explained in something
> > approaching 'english'.... a few noted that I did not describe anything
> > about the oil leak, so I will copy in here what it says about oil on
> > the diagnosis...bear in mind that I find it hard to trust this dealer (
> > they once quoted me $1500 to replace a jammed sunroof that my
> > daughter's friend fixed in five minutes), yet this is what they say, in
> > addtion to the aforementioned 'leakdown' info :
> >
> > "during compression test, noticed oil spraying out of cylinder
> > #3..looked inside and noticed top of piston head covered in oil,,heard
> > air coming out of dipstick tube during #3 leakdown test...suspected
> > wear on engine bottom end....vehicle requires engine rebuild...or
> > replacement"
> >
> >
> > .also someone asked about mileage...the car has 210K on it and the
> > engine block crack was 'fixed' at about 190K...
> >
> > I just want to say that I am very pleasantly surprised at how uesful
> > and informative the replies have been.. I should have started posting
> > my problems long ago ..maybe I wouldn't be sitting in the 'seat' I'm in
> > now!
> >
>
>
> OK, from the above, I would have concluded that there may be a blown
> head gasket between the #3 cylinder and an oil galley (passageway).
>
> When there is compression in that cylinder (as when doing the leakdown
> test) it would send air out through the oil galley and cause gurgling up
> from the dispstick as the crankcase is pressurized. When there is
> vacuum inside the cylinder (such as during the intake stroke when
> cranking during a compression check) it is likely to draw some oil into
> the cylinder. If the leak is small, when the engine is cold it may
> cause that cylinder to run rough, clearing up as the engine comes up to
> temperature.
>
> Considering this, and with 210k miles on the clock, I am inclined to
> believe that they may (for the wrong reasons) be correct that your
> engine may indeed need some TLC. But still, no matter what, I would
> find someplace other than the stealership to get it properly sorted out.
>
> Your best option may be to try and find a low(er) mileage engine at a
> salvage yard.
>
> --
> -Fred W