***HELP*** Got Ticketed, and I have my trial date coming up real soon.

On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, JohnSmith wrote:

> I got a ticket last week for sppeding. I got what's called a "Uniform
> Traffic Ticket". I was clocked at 103 MPH in a 65 MPH zone. I do not
> have a license, but a learners permit. I never got a ticket (Which may
> be the reason I was driving at that speed...) and I have no idea what my
> options are.

So let's review your claim: You got a ticket for exceeding the limit by
nearly forty miles an hour without a driver's license, because you've
never had a ticket before.

Uh-huh.

> There is also an option of requesting a deposition, which I don't know
> what it is anyway.

You should definitely pick that option. If nothing else, it will teach you
what a deposition is.

> I would like to know what happens if I plead guilty

With any degree of luck, you don't join us on the road again for a VERY
long time.

> and what will happen if I plead not guilty.

*chuckle* Sure, ace.

> I do not and cannot drive there, because it's like a 5-6 hour drive.

What keeps you from driving there? You didn't seem to have any trouble
driving when you got the ticket.

> Another thing, will I be able to make my licanse now?

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, JohnSmith wrote:

> I got a ticket last week for sppeding. I got what's called a "Uniform
> Traffic Ticket". I was clocked at 103 MPH in a 65 MPH zone. I do not
> have a license, but a learners permit. I never got a ticket (Which may
> be the reason I was driving at that speed...) and I have no idea what my
> options are.

So let's review your claim: You got a ticket for exceeding the limit by
nearly forty miles an hour without a driver's license, because you've
never had a ticket before.

Uh-huh.

> There is also an option of requesting a deposition, which I don't know
> what it is anyway.

You should definitely pick that option. If nothing else, it will teach you
what a deposition is.

> I would like to know what happens if I plead guilty

With any degree of luck, you don't join us on the road again for a VERY
long time.

> and what will happen if I plead not guilty.

*chuckle* Sure, ace.

> I do not and cannot drive there, because it's like a 5-6 hour drive.

What keeps you from driving there? You didn't seem to have any trouble
driving when you got the ticket.

> Another thing, will I be able to make my licanse now?

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

In article >,
says...


>IIRC, if you request it, the police agency has 30 days to provide you
>with a copy of it. I believe it outlines the case against you. Alex
>Rodriguez would probably be able to explain it better.

The SD is supposed to give all the details on the offense. Including
information on how you were timed and the officers qualifications. I'm
not sure of this, but I was told that any evidence not in the SD cannot
be introduced during the trial. Not sure exactly where to look this up.
I haven't needed this information, so I haven't done the research on this.
If the SD doesn't get to you in 30 days, you still have to go to court and
request that the ticket get tossed because the SD was not provided with in
the time limit.

>Try asking for a continuance, but wait for Alex's reponse because I
>don't know how that will affect the 30 day time limit that the police
>agency has to provide you with a copy of the supporting deposition (if
>you requested it).

The 30 day clock starts running when you send in the request. I would
make sure to send your request registered with a retrun reciept requested.
That way you have proof of when you sent the request and when it was recieved.

>You might also consider joining the NMA (http://www.motorists.org) and
>renting their legal defense kit, though I'm not sure if you can sign up
>if you're under 18.

I would definitely recommned doing that.
--------------
Alex

In article >,
says...


>IIRC, if you request it, the police agency has 30 days to provide you
>with a copy of it. I believe it outlines the case against you. Alex
>Rodriguez would probably be able to explain it better.

The SD is supposed to give all the details on the offense. Including
information on how you were timed and the officers qualifications. I'm
not sure of this, but I was told that any evidence not in the SD cannot
be introduced during the trial. Not sure exactly where to look this up.
I haven't needed this information, so I haven't done the research on this.
If the SD doesn't get to you in 30 days, you still have to go to court and
request that the ticket get tossed because the SD was not provided with in
the time limit.

>Try asking for a continuance, but wait for Alex's reponse because I
>don't know how that will affect the 30 day time limit that the police
>agency has to provide you with a copy of the supporting deposition (if
>you requested it).

The 30 day clock starts running when you send in the request. I would
make sure to send your request registered with a retrun reciept requested.
That way you have proof of when you sent the request and when it was recieved.

>You might also consider joining the NMA (http://www.motorists.org) and
>renting their legal defense kit, though I'm not sure if you can sign up
>if you're under 18.

I would definitely recommned doing that.
--------------
Alex

Looking for legal advice? There is none in this post.

In a previous posting, (Michael Jacobs)
had the audacity to say:

:I don't want to sound flip, but you certainly are sounding that way
:yourself. This is no laughing matter; 103 is damn fast,

Not really. (Though for a learner, yes.)

:and in some states would constitute reckless driving per se

Legally this is true, but those "speed X = reckless" laws are a
load of BS anyway.

:And, are you sure _this_ ticket lets you plead
:guilty by mail and submit a fine, without appearing in court?

Here in British Columbia you usually can pay a tix like that by
mail, at least if it's your first one. However, the deceptive
quality thereof is that you can still be banned from driving
subsequent to such a GUILTY plea, which imo is wrong. If they
wanna take away your privilege to drive, a court appearance
ought to be mandatory.

:BTW, this is probably not the sort of thing the judge likes to see
:from someone still on their learner's permit.

Yup, this is the part that gets to me most. The speed in and of
itself is not a problem (practically, not legally speaking), but
one really needs good driver training to be confident at 100+
mph under the right conditions.

Now, that being said, the OP has not (it seems) been charged
with Dangerous/Reckless Driving, and he at least should be
grateful for that.

:Be prepared to wait an awful long time before you get the privilege
:to drive again, if you are found guilty,

Here you would possibly face a ban of between one and twelve
months for such a conviction. The Superintendent of Motor
Vehicles indeed would not take such a violation all that
lightly, especially for a learner (and even more especially for
a learner w/o the mandatory supervisor). But after that ban
expired, you would be perfectly free to continue learning to
drive, except that the "timer" would be reset to zero and you
would have to hold your learner permit for at least another full
year. Until the laws were changed recently, you would in fact
have been able to continue exactly where you left off.

:which is pretty likely since your message admits you
:committed the offense...

Others have said the same, but I don't think that's so; the OP
said he was *clocked* at 103 mph, not that he was *driving* at
103 mph.

:so I would advise you keep your mouth shut in
ublic forums like Usenet

I don't believe the OP actually truly implicated himself.

:and just get yourself a good lawyer.

Probably good advice.

:> I would like to know what happens if I plead guilty,
:
:You will get a fine -- probably at least several hundred dollars for
:that size of violation, if not a thousand or more -- as well as
ossible jail time, esp. if you show the judge the same flip attitude
:you are showing here.

Jail time is possible in NY for 11+ mph over the limit, but
pretty unlikely in practice I think.

:You could also lose your privilege to drive for a very long time.

(Normally) 1 to 12 months here for that situation, assuming you
do get banned, which is not automatic. Don't know what it would
be in NY state.

:> and what will happen if I plead not guilty.
:
:You will then get a trial.
:
:At which you will probably be found guilty, based on what you said.

He didn't implicate himself!

:At which point, the judge will sentence you pretty much just the same
:as if you had pleaded guilty. Maybe even worse, since you had the
:temerity to deny guilt in a case that was so blatantly against you.

For traffic cases here, you can't be sentenced to worse than the
maximum, which is what you get if you just cough up the money.
The fine stated on the tix is already the max permitted by law.

:Your lawyer can tell you. But it will probably take a lot longer
:than it would have if you hadn't gotten the ticket. Here in MD, the
:learner needs to have a permit for at least 4 mo. of ticket-free
:driving before they can take the test for a permanent license, and if
:they get a ticket, the 4 mo. starts ticking all over again. And if
:your privilege gets suspended or revoked as a result of what you did,
:that time doesn't count toward the required 4 mo. If your license
:gets revoked, it could be basically a forever thing. So, it depends.

I'm grateful to live in a place where they can't just "revoke"
your licence over a simple speeding tix, or even a dozen of 'em.

:And, oh yeah, if you are a minor, it would be a real good idea to tell
:your parents about this. Even if you may not like the immediate
:result, it would be better in the long run.

Ditto from me.

:Good luck. And if they don't keep you off the road for life,

For speeding? Nah, they don't even do that for multiple time
DWI/DD convicts. Not even those who maim and kill, sometimes.

:for Pete's sake DRIVE MORE SLOWLY from now on.

At least until he has the proper training anyway. In itself,
there is no problem with 103 mph. If the OP was truly driving
dangerously - and given the lack of hard evidence, I shall
refrain from making a personal comment on that - why wasn't he
charged as such? (Or was he? We don't truly know, like you
said.)

:> (Note: My court date is coming up soon, and I need the info real fast
:> please)
:
:You need to GET A LAWYER real fast.

Ditto from me.

:If you can't afford one, you may
:have a right to have one appointed by the state.

I think due process rights like that are virtually nonexistent
for a simple speeding tix, which this case *appears* to be
(unless the OP was in fact charged with a more serious criminal
offence, such as Dangerous/Reckless Driving).

:Or get your parents
:to hire you one. But IMO it would be real stupid to try this one on
:your own.

That might be true in New York, I can't really comment on that
definitively. Here, it might be okay since the penalty on the
tix is the maximum anyway. 38 mph over the limit lightens your
wallet by $460 and puts three points on your record (in itself,
not sufficient for raised in$urance premiums). Whether or not
you'll lose your privilege to drive, and for how long if so, is
basically at the discretion of the Superintendent of Motor
Vehicles in Victoria BC. And if you don't agree with his/her
decision, you have a subsequent right of appeal (another $100
and court appearance - and a few appellants do win!).

--
E.R. aka SJG aka Ricardo
present location: vancouver bc canada
refugee from the european union's evil bureaucracy

Looking for legal advice? There is none in this post.

In a previous posting, (Michael Jacobs)
had the audacity to say:

:I don't want to sound flip, but you certainly are sounding that way
:yourself. This is no laughing matter; 103 is damn fast,

Not really. (Though for a learner, yes.)

:and in some states would constitute reckless driving per se

Legally this is true, but those "speed X = reckless" laws are a
load of BS anyway.

:And, are you sure _this_ ticket lets you plead
:guilty by mail and submit a fine, without appearing in court?

Here in British Columbia you usually can pay a tix like that by
mail, at least if it's your first one. However, the deceptive
quality thereof is that you can still be banned from driving
subsequent to such a GUILTY plea, which imo is wrong. If they
wanna take away your privilege to drive, a court appearance
ought to be mandatory.

:BTW, this is probably not the sort of thing the judge likes to see
:from someone still on their learner's permit.

Yup, this is the part that gets to me most. The speed in and of
itself is not a problem (practically, not legally speaking), but
one really needs good driver training to be confident at 100+
mph under the right conditions.

Now, that being said, the OP has not (it seems) been charged
with Dangerous/Reckless Driving, and he at least should be
grateful for that.

:Be prepared to wait an awful long time before you get the privilege
:to drive again, if you are found guilty,

Here you would possibly face a ban of between one and twelve
months for such a conviction. The Superintendent of Motor
Vehicles indeed would not take such a violation all that
lightly, especially for a learner (and even more especially for
a learner w/o the mandatory supervisor). But after that ban
expired, you would be perfectly free to continue learning to
drive, except that the "timer" would be reset to zero and you
would have to hold your learner permit for at least another full
year. Until the laws were changed recently, you would in fact
have been able to continue exactly where you left off.

:which is pretty likely since your message admits you
:committed the offense...

Others have said the same, but I don't think that's so; the OP
said he was *clocked* at 103 mph, not that he was *driving* at
103 mph.

:so I would advise you keep your mouth shut in
ublic forums like Usenet

I don't believe the OP actually truly implicated himself.

:and just get yourself a good lawyer.

Probably good advice.

:> I would like to know what happens if I plead guilty,
:
:You will get a fine -- probably at least several hundred dollars for
:that size of violation, if not a thousand or more -- as well as
ossible jail time, esp. if you show the judge the same flip attitude
:you are showing here.

Jail time is possible in NY for 11+ mph over the limit, but
pretty unlikely in practice I think.

:You could also lose your privilege to drive for a very long time.

(Normally) 1 to 12 months here for that situation, assuming you
do get banned, which is not automatic. Don't know what it would
be in NY state.

:> and what will happen if I plead not guilty.
:
:You will then get a trial.
:
:At which you will probably be found guilty, based on what you said.

He didn't implicate himself!

:At which point, the judge will sentence you pretty much just the same
:as if you had pleaded guilty. Maybe even worse, since you had the
:temerity to deny guilt in a case that was so blatantly against you.

For traffic cases here, you can't be sentenced to worse than the
maximum, which is what you get if you just cough up the money.
The fine stated on the tix is already the max permitted by law.

:Your lawyer can tell you. But it will probably take a lot longer
:than it would have if you hadn't gotten the ticket. Here in MD, the
:learner needs to have a permit for at least 4 mo. of ticket-free
:driving before they can take the test for a permanent license, and if
:they get a ticket, the 4 mo. starts ticking all over again. And if
:your privilege gets suspended or revoked as a result of what you did,
:that time doesn't count toward the required 4 mo. If your license
:gets revoked, it could be basically a forever thing. So, it depends.

I'm grateful to live in a place where they can't just "revoke"
your licence over a simple speeding tix, or even a dozen of 'em.

:And, oh yeah, if you are a minor, it would be a real good idea to tell
:your parents about this. Even if you may not like the immediate
:result, it would be better in the long run.

Ditto from me.

:Good luck. And if they don't keep you off the road for life,

For speeding? Nah, they don't even do that for multiple time
DWI/DD convicts. Not even those who maim and kill, sometimes.

:for Pete's sake DRIVE MORE SLOWLY from now on.

At least until he has the proper training anyway. In itself,
there is no problem with 103 mph. If the OP was truly driving
dangerously - and given the lack of hard evidence, I shall
refrain from making a personal comment on that - why wasn't he
charged as such? (Or was he? We don't truly know, like you
said.)

:> (Note: My court date is coming up soon, and I need the info real fast
:> please)
:
:You need to GET A LAWYER real fast.

Ditto from me.

:If you can't afford one, you may
:have a right to have one appointed by the state.

I think due process rights like that are virtually nonexistent
for a simple speeding tix, which this case *appears* to be
(unless the OP was in fact charged with a more serious criminal
offence, such as Dangerous/Reckless Driving).

:Or get your parents
:to hire you one. But IMO it would be real stupid to try this one on
:your own.

That might be true in New York, I can't really comment on that
definitively. Here, it might be okay since the penalty on the
tix is the maximum anyway. 38 mph over the limit lightens your
wallet by $460 and puts three points on your record (in itself,
not sufficient for raised in$urance premiums). Whether or not
you'll lose your privilege to drive, and for how long if so, is
basically at the discretion of the Superintendent of Motor
Vehicles in Victoria BC. And if you don't agree with his/her
decision, you have a subsequent right of appeal (another $100
and court appearance - and a few appellants do win!).

--
E.R. aka SJG aka Ricardo
present location: vancouver bc canada
refugee from the european union's evil bureaucracy

predict what would emerge from such a time of troubles,
but at any rate the human race would be given a new chance. The
greatest danger is that industrial society may begin to reconstitute
itself within the first few years after the breakdown. Certainly there
will be many people (power-hungry types especially) who will be
anxious to get the factories running again.

166. Therefore two tasks confront those who hate the servitude to
which the industrial system is reducing the human race. First, we must
work to heighten the social stresses within the system so as to
increase the likelihood that it will break down or be weakened
sufficiently so that a revolution against it becomes possible. Second,
it is necessary to develop and propagate an ideology that opposes
technology and the industrial society if and when the system becomes
sufficiently weakened. And such an ideology will help to assure that,
if and when industrial society breaks down, its remnants will be
smashed beyond repair, so that the system cannot be reconstituted. The
factories should be destroyed, technical books burned, etc.

HUMAN SUFFERING



167. The industrial system will not break down purely as a result of
revolutionary action. It will not be vulnerable to revolutionary
attack unless its own internal problems of development lead it into
very serious difficulties. So if the system breaks down it will do so
either spontaneously, or through a process that is in part spontaneous
but helped along by revolutionaries. If the breakdown is sudd

predict what would emerge from such a time of troubles,
but at any rate the human race would be given a new chance. The
greatest danger is that industrial society may begin to reconstitute
itself within the first few years after the breakdown. Certainly there
will be many people (power-hungry types especially) who will be
anxious to get the factories running again.

166. Therefore two tasks confront those who hate the servitude to
which the industrial system is reducing the human race. First, we must
work to heighten the social stresses within the system so as to
increase the likelihood that it will break down or be weakened
sufficiently so that a revolution against it becomes possible. Second,
it is necessary to develop and propagate an ideology that opposes
technology and the industrial society if and when the system becomes
sufficiently weakened. And such an ideology will help to assure that,
if and when industrial society breaks down, its remnants will be
smashed beyond repair, so that the system cannot be reconstituted. The
factories should be destroyed, technical books burned, etc.

HUMAN SUFFERING



167. The industrial system will not break down purely as a result of
revolutionary action. It will not be vulnerable to revolutionary
attack unless its own internal problems of development lead it into
very serious difficulties. So if the system breaks down it will do so
either spontaneously, or through a process that is in part spontaneous
but helped along by revolutionaries. If the breakdown is sudd

the goal (solution of the problem.) Science is a surrogate
activity because scientists work mainly for the fulfillment they get
out of the work itself.

90. Of course, it's not that simple. Other motives do play a role for
many scientists. Money and status for example. Some scientists may be
persons of the type who have an insatiable drive for status (see
paragraph 79) and this may provide much of the motivation for their
work. No doubt the majority of scientists, like the majority of the
general population, are more or less susceptible to advertising and
marketing techniques and need money to satisfy their craving for goods
and services. Thus science is not a PURE surrogate activity. But it is
in large part a surrogate activity.

91. Also, science and technology constitute a mass power movement, and
many scientists gratify their need for power through identification
with this mass movement (see paragraph 83).

92. Thus science marches on blindly, without regard to the real
welfare of the human race or to any other standard, obedient only to
the psychological needs of the scientists and of the government
officials and corporation executives who provide the funds for
research.

THE NATURE OF FREEDOM



93. We are going to argue that industrial-technological society cannot
be reformed in such a way as to prevent it from progressively
narrowing the sphere of hum

the goal (solution of the problem.) Science is a surrogate
activity because scientists work mainly for the fulfillment they get
out of the work itself.

90. Of course, it's not that simple. Other motives do play a role for
many scientists. Money and status for example. Some scientists may be
persons of the type who have an insatiable drive for status (see
paragraph 79) and this may provide much of the motivation for their
work. No doubt the majority of scientists, like the majority of the
general population, are more or less susceptible to advertising and
marketing techniques and need money to satisfy their craving for goods
and services. Thus science is not a PURE surrogate activity. But it is
in large part a surrogate activity.

91. Also, science and technology constitute a mass power movement, and
many scientists gratify their need for power through identification
with this mass movement (see paragraph 83).

92. Thus science marches on blindly, without regard to the real
welfare of the human race or to any other standard, obedient only to
the psychological needs of the scientists and of the government
officials and corporation executives who provide the funds for
research.

THE NATURE OF FREEDOM



93. We are going to argue that industrial-technological society cannot
be reformed in such a way as to prevent it from progressively
narrowing the sphere of hum