Gas price whiners

"elaich" > wrote in message ...
> "dwight" > wrote in news:z4mdncE6Xf3vs4zeRVn-
> :
>
>> The same could be said of any and all consumers. Why single out China?
>
> Because every drop of the oil that the Alaskan oil wells and pipeline are
> producing are being sold to the Orient. The USA imports it's oil from the
> Middle East at high OPEC prices, and sells what they could use internally
> to foreign countries. And who pays? The consumer.
>
> If anybody can't tell that this stinks, you must have dead nostrils.

If that's true... Sounds like every other well-meaning government program.
But it's probably overly simplistic.

The United States is the No. 3 oil producing country in the world, behind
only Saudi Arabia and the former Soviet Union. Yet, daily production of oil
and natural gas dropped last year to 7.2 million barrels per day, down 36%
since its peak in 1970. (Washington Post)

The Prudhoe Bay oilfields are producing nowhere near what they used to, down
75% since 1987. (75%!)

How about this little snippet? "Relatively small amounts - never more than
7% - of Alaskan crude have been sold to Korea, Japan and China. Korea
imports about half of this oil."

Can you give me a link to a reputable source that says that "every
drop...(is)...being sold to the Orient"?

dwight

"SVTKate" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "dwight" > wrote in message
> ...
> : "RichA" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > China is driving oil prices since THEY are the new part
> : > of the demand equation.
> :
> : The same could be said of any and all consumers. Why single out China?
> :
>
> Currently CHina IS the big glut on the market.

China's markets are growing, yes, but they didn't spring up full-blown
within the past year.

> They are the ones that have driven up the cost of most of our natural
> resources because of their high demand.
> Not just the prices of oil but of everything from timber to steel. Like
> locusts but we are greedy enough that we won't say no to them, nor does
> the
> rest of the world for that matter.
>
> In return, well you know what we get. Shoddy goods and unemployment.

There you have it. China's high demand is a direct result of OUR high
demand, and now we're going to complain because the hired help want a raise.
Ah, for those days of really cheap and cooperative workers...

Fact is, we want to spread our way of life around the world. Problem is,
once we spread our way of life around the world, we're in direct competition
with the world for our way of life.

Damn.

Still doesn't explain the huge bump in oil prices over the past year.

dwight

"dwight" > wrote in message
:
: Damn.
:
: Still doesn't explain the huge bump in oil prices over the past year.
:
: dwight
:

I agree, in California they always made some excuse, like this or that
refinery was down.

It's all just price gouging I believe, and they get away with it because the
government gets their hairy little palms greased in the deal.

"SVTKate" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "dwight" > wrote in message
> :
> : Damn.
> :
> : Still doesn't explain the huge bump in oil prices over the past year.
> :
> : dwight
> :
>
> I agree, in California they always made some excuse, like this or that
> refinery was down.
>
> It's all just price gouging I believe, and they get away with it because
> the
> government gets their hairy little palms greased in the deal.

Best reason I've seen so far deals with the "peak oil" aspect - that point
at which we've used up exactly half of the world's reserves, without finding
sufficient new deposits to accomodate the need. In the belief that this
"peak oil" point is imminent, oil futures are being bidded up beyond
reality.

What I could never figure out is why oil "futures" have an immediate impact
on my gas pump price.

My local Mobil station is up to $2.739 now for 87 octane. And, so far, no
one is telling them that they CAN'T raise the price.

Speaking of rising prices...

I grabbed a couple of quarters and went out in search of an air pump. Every
stinkin' one of 'em was asking 75 cents for three minutes of air. It's like
all of the stations got together and raised the price simultaneously.

So I stopped at the Mobil Minimart and asked for change for a dollar, so I
could use their 75 cent air pump. The attendant told me it was free. Just
push the button and get air. The thing was broken, and didn't know whether I
put my quarters in or not.

AND ANOTHER THING!

My rearview mirror fell off in TFrog. It's been 12 years, so I guess it was
due. Went to KMart and picked up my official rearview mirror adhesive kit.
But it seems that Ford has changed something up on the mirror, itself. Used
to be, the mirror assembly was held to the mounting bracket by a single
Allen screw. Now I find that I need an official Ford Rearview Mirror Removal
Tool. When the hell did this happen, and whose bright idea was that?!?

To hell with it - I put the mirror back on whole. Just sitting here waiting
for the glue to dry.

dwight

Sounds like you have the government jacking the price up beyond what we
have due to the much higher tax rate. I thought our rates are
ridiculous! Here I think New York has about the highest gasoline tax
rate at a little over 30%. Most states are around 20-22%. Just like
here, I don't understand why you Canadians let your politicians
continually rape you on high taxes. Considering Canada is a net
exporter of oil makes high gasoline prices even more disgusting, IMO.

Jim Warman wrote:
> I think it is pure and simple price gouging.... Our government exacts a
> cruel tax on petroleum products and the refineries charge what they an get
> away with.
>
> I had my own gas station for several years.... this was a leased premise
> scenario.... My service rep would never allow me to move my prices down....
> no matter what the local price was, I would never make enough for the gas
> bar to pay for itself (I was allowed a little over 3 cents per litre....
> anything else, the oil company took. I could move my price down if I wanted
> to take a sh*t kicking but, if I started a gas war, my oil company wouldn't
> help me out. Heck, if the guy down the street started a gas war, my oil
> company wouldn't help me out.
>
> I'm not sure of the exacxt number here in Alberta (it varies province to
> province) but about 40% of our gasoline price is taxes.... IIRC, the world
> price on a barrel of oil is based on west Texas crude....high quality crude
> can go for higher and lower quality crude can go for lower.... the chemist
> have us there since they can determine what products are easily extracted
> from the base and which products will require special treatment such as
> catalyst treating....What it boils down to is like being a farmer.... a
> farmer might get $200 for a good steer,,,, the butcher can turn that steer
> into over $1000 worth of meat. If the butcher sticks to his guns, he can
> always find a farmer that will part with a good steer for cheap.
>
> Crude oil producers have the oprion of shutting in a well if it can't pay
> for itself. There are regulations regarding this though I am unsure of what
> it all entails.... to permanently shut in a well take bucks... lot's of
> bucks. The refineries offer a price for the wells production... If the
> refinery is running above their break even dollar, the price they offer goes
> down.... If the refinery is operating at max production level (sometimes as
> high as 125%), the price offered can go way down.
>
> Long story made short.... the government makes out like jack the bear since
> they dont have to do anything other than pass another levy.... The refinery
> (and it's shareholders... some of whom appear to be politicians) makes out
> like jack the bear.... The consumer suffers real bad and the producer counts
> pennies (but still does much better than the consumer).
>
> Sorry to ramble. Michael, but this is a real sore subject with me.... I
> don't mind companies making "healthy" profits.... I just don't like having
> to bring my own vaseline....
>
>
> "Michael Johnson, PE" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jim, I don't blame you for bitching. It's sad when you pay more for a
>>gallon of gas than we do here in the US considering all the oil we
>>import from Canada. Who, or what, is responsible for it?
>>
>>Jim Warman wrote:
>>
>>>WTF are you rattling on about???
>>>
>>>Gas prioces are high.... our respective governments are reaping huge
>>>windfalls through royalties and taxes.
>>>
>>>Less than 2000 meters beneath my feet, is a huge puddle of the stuff
>>>gasoline is made from. Sure, there is a matter of supply and demandbut
>
> looka
>
>>>here.... Right now, I'm paying 99.9 cents per liter for regular gas....
>
> and
>
>>>the reason the price is that low is because the signs don't go any
>
> higher.
>
>>>Right now, the business signage companies are in town doing a bang up
>>>business installing new signs.
>>>
>>>FWIW, 99.9 per liter is around 4 bucks a gallon.... when I was younger,
>
> I
>
>>>had cars that couldn't hold 4 bucks worth of gas. Am I upset about gas
>>>prices? You bet!!! Do I reserve the right to "whine" about gas
>
> prices....
>
>>>damned right.... and I'll stop when you start paying for my gasoline...
>>>
>>>
>>>"RichA" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>China is driving oil prices since THEY are the new part
>>>>of the demand equation. If you think it's just gas, take
>>>>a look at the price of steel, aluminum and other materials
>>>>they are consuming. They've doubled in less than two years
>>>>as well. Welcome to the new World.
>>>>But, if you don't like it, move to Argentina. Gas is subsidized
>>>>and a tank will cost you (believe it or not) $2.00!!! Of course,
>>>>you're wages are likely to be a little lower.
>>>>Or, if you think high gas prices are good for your environmental
>>>>cause, move to England where a tank will run you $90.00.
>>>>Oh yeah; Your wages will be lower in England too, so with houses
>>>>in London costing $1m+, get used to the idea of a 400 square foot
>>>>flat and the term, "roommate."
>>>>-Rich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Bittorrents are REFUNDS for all the BAD movie products Hollywood
>>>>never gave us refunds for in the past"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

dwight wrote:
> "RichA" > wrote in message
> news >
>>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:24:41 -0400, "dwight" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"RichA" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>China is driving oil prices since THEY are the new part
>>>>of the demand equation.
>>>
>>>The same could be said of any and all consumers. Why single out China?
>>
>>Because THEY are responsible for the majority of the new demand.
>>And India. The U.S. has always been a big consumer because they
>>produced MOST of the goods the World consumed.
>
>
> If you want to complain about business competition, too bad. The current
> situation has been decades in the making, ever since the first American
> entrepreneurs contracted the Chinese to make cheap swizzle sticks and
> sneakers. China's (and India's ...and Ireland's, for that matter) booming
> economy is a direct result of American enterprise.
>
> If you want to blame the Chinese for the rise in gasoline prices OVER THE
> PAST TWELVE MONTHS, then I would remind you that China existed for a few
> years before that. Their industry did not rise up whole in that short span
> of time. It's not like a billion Chinese suddenly went out and bought
> Chevies under GM's employee discount program, making my gasoline go from
> $1.50 in June 2004 to $2.70 in July 2005.

Here's my take on why the price of gasoline in so high. Think of the
refined oil products we consume as being stored in a huge reservoir like
a water supply. Now with water, the size of the reservoir is determined
by anticipating the overall demand but in addition peak usage is
considered as is the possibility of a drought occurring for a given
period of time. The reservoir is then sized accordingly to ensure there
is a reliable water supply for the users. The oil industry has allowed
the size of our oil "reservoir" to not only stay the same but to reduce
as the demand has increased. We don't size the reserve to buffer the
peaks and lows of the oil market. When the price of oil drops we should
be stockpiling to buffer the price when it raises.

Why this occurs is anyone's guess. I think it is a combination of
things like oil companies maximizing profits, environmental
groups/regulations making development of new oil fields impossible or
impractical, regulations negatively impacting the construction of new
refineries and the lack of sufficient storage facilities for crude oil
and refined products. If the government would really be looking out for
the welfare of the citizens they would make it easier for oil companies
to build refineries and find/develop new oil fields and demand they have
sufficient capacity/storage to buffer price spikes. A prime example is
the government keeping the oil fields on the North Slope closed off.
Also, there are many fields off the coast of California that have been
made off limits because of the environmentalists. The fact is that oil
can be extracted from these areas with virtually no impact on the
surrounding environment.

Personally, I don't believe there is a shortage of oil in the ground and
there won't be for many, many decades. It is the system that extracts
it and refines it that is causing the current problem. I think in 1-2
years from now the prices will stabilize and will remain that way for
10-15 years.

I'm sure Canadians allow their politicians to rape them on high taxes
for pretty much the same reasons we US citizens allow our politicians
to rape us.


"Michael Johnson, PE" > wrote in
:

> Sounds like you have the government jacking the price up beyond what
> we have due to the much higher tax rate. I thought our rates are
> ridiculous! Here I think New York has about the highest gasoline
> tax rate at a little over 30%. Most states are around 20-22%. Just
> like here, I don't understand why you Canadians let your politicians
> continually rape you on high taxes. Considering Canada is a net
> exporter of oil makes high gasoline prices even more disgusting,
> IMO.
>
> Jim Warman wrote:
>> I think it is pure and simple price gouging.... Our government
>> exacts a cruel tax on petroleum products and the refineries charge
>> what they an get away with.
>>
>> I had my own gas station for several years.... this was a leased
>> premise scenario.... My service rep would never allow me to move my
>> prices down.... no matter what the local price was, I would never
>> make enough for the gas bar to pay for itself (I was allowed a
>> little over 3 cents per litre.... anything else, the oil company
>> took. I could move my price down if I wanted to take a sh*t kicking
>> but, if I started a gas war, my oil company wouldn't help me out.
>> Heck, if the guy down the street started a gas war, my oil company
>> wouldn't help me out.
>>
>> I'm not sure of the exacxt number here in Alberta (it varies
>> province to province) but about 40% of our gasoline price is
>> taxes.... IIRC, the world price on a barrel of oil is based on west
>> Texas crude....high quality crude can go for higher and lower
>> quality crude can go for lower.... the chemist have us there since
>> they can determine what products are easily extracted from the base
>> and which products will require special treatment such as catalyst
>> treating....What it boils down to is like being a farmer.... a
>> farmer might get $200 for a good steer,,,, the butcher can turn
>> that steer into over $1000 worth of meat. If the butcher sticks to
>> his guns, he can always find a farmer that will part with a good
>> steer for cheap.
>>
>> Crude oil producers have the oprion of shutting in a well if it
>> can't pay for itself. There are regulations regarding this though I
>> am unsure of what it all entails.... to permanently shut in a well
>> take bucks... lot's of bucks. The refineries offer a price for the
>> wells production... If the refinery is running above their break
>> even dollar, the price they offer goes down.... If the refinery is
>> operating at max production level (sometimes as high as 125%), the
>> price offered can go way down.
>>
>> Long story made short.... the government makes out like jack the
>> bear since they dont have to do anything other than pass another
>> levy.... The refinery (and it's shareholders... some of whom appear
>> to be politicians) makes out like jack the bear.... The consumer
>> suffers real bad and the producer counts pennies (but still does
>> much better than the consumer).
>>
>> Sorry to ramble. Michael, but this is a real sore subject with
>> me.... I don't mind companies making "healthy" profits.... I just
>> don't like having to bring my own vaseline....
>>
>>
>> "Michael Johnson, PE" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Jim, I don't blame you for bitching. It's sad when you pay more
>>>for a gallon of gas than we do here in the US considering all the
>>>oil we import from Canada. Who, or what, is responsible for it?
>>>
>>>Jim Warman wrote:
>>>
>>>>WTF are you rattling on about???
>>>>
>>>>Gas prioces are high.... our respective governments are reaping
>>>>huge windfalls through royalties and taxes.
>>>>
>>>>Less than 2000 meters beneath my feet, is a huge puddle of the
>>>>stuff gasoline is made from. Sure, there is a matter of supply and
>>>>demandbut
>>
>> looka
>>
>>>>here.... Right now, I'm paying 99.9 cents per liter for regular
>>>>gas....
>>
>> and
>>
>>>>the reason the price is that low is because the signs don't go any
>>
>> higher.
>>
>>>>Right now, the business signage companies are in town doing a bang
>>>>up business installing new signs.
>>>>
>>>>FWIW, 99.9 per liter is around 4 bucks a gallon.... when I was
>>>>younger,
>>
>> I
>>
>>>>had cars that couldn't hold 4 bucks worth of gas. Am I upset about
>>>>gas prices? You bet!!! Do I reserve the right to "whine" about gas
>>
>> prices....
>>
>>>>damned right.... and I'll stop when you start paying for my
>>>>gasoline...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"RichA" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>China is driving oil prices since THEY are the new part
>>>>>of the demand equation. If you think it's just gas, take
>>>>>a look at the price of steel, aluminum and other materials
>>>>>they are consuming. They've doubled in less than two years
>>>>>as well. Welcome to the new World.
>>>>>But, if you don't like it, move to Argentina. Gas is subsidized
>>>>>and a tank will cost you (believe it or not) $2.00!!! Of course,
>>>>>you're wages are likely to be a little lower.
>>>>>Or, if you think high gas prices are good for your environmental
>>>>>cause, move to England where a tank will run you $90.00.
>>>>>Oh yeah; Your wages will be lower in England too, so with houses
>>>>>in London costing $1m+, get used to the idea of a 400 square foot
>>>>>flat and the term, "roommate."
>>>>>-Rich
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Bittorrents are REFUNDS for all the BAD movie products Hollywood
>>>>>never gave us refunds for in the past"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>

"Michael Johnson, PE" > wrote in
:

> dwight wrote:
>> "RichA" > wrote in message
>> news >>
>>>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:24:41 -0400, "dwight" >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"RichA" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>
>>>>>China is driving oil prices since THEY are the new part
>>>>>of the demand equation.
>>>>
>>>>The same could be said of any and all consumers. Why single out
>>>>China?
>>>
>>>Because THEY are responsible for the majority of the new demand.
>>>And India. The U.S. has always been a big consumer because they
>>>produced MOST of the goods the World consumed.
>>
>>
>> If you want to complain about business competition, too bad. The
>> current situation has been decades in the making, ever since the
>> first American entrepreneurs contracted the Chinese to make cheap
>> swizzle sticks and sneakers. China's (and India's ...and Ireland's,
>> for that matter) booming economy is a direct result of American
>> enterprise.
>>
>> If you want to blame the Chinese for the rise in gasoline prices
>> OVER THE PAST TWELVE MONTHS, then I would remind you that China
>> existed for a few years before that. Their industry did not rise up
>> whole in that short span of time. It's not like a billion Chinese
>> suddenly went out and bought Chevies under GM's employee discount
>> program, making my gasoline go from $1.50 in June 2004 to $2.70 in
>> July 2005.
>
> Here's my take on why the price of gasoline in so high. Think of
> the refined oil products we consume as being stored in a huge
> reservoir like a water supply. Now with water, the size of the
> reservoir is determined by anticipating the overall demand but in
> addition peak usage is considered as is the possibility of a drought
> occurring for a given period of time. The reservoir is then sized
> accordingly to ensure there is a reliable water supply for the
> users. The oil industry has allowed the size of our oil "reservoir"
> to not only stay the same but to reduce as the demand has increased.
> We don't size the reserve to buffer the peaks and lows of the oil
> market. When the price of oil drops we should be stockpiling to
> buffer the price when it raises.
>
> Why this occurs is anyone's guess. I think it is a combination of
> things like oil companies maximizing profits, environmental
> groups/regulations making development of new oil fields impossible
> or impractical, regulations negatively impacting the construction of
> new refineries and the lack of sufficient storage facilities for
> crude oil and refined products. If the government would really be
> looking out for the welfare of the citizens they would make it
> easier for oil companies to build refineries and find/develop new
> oil fields and demand they have sufficient capacity/storage to
> buffer price spikes. A prime example is the government keeping the
> oil fields on the North Slope closed off. Also, there are many
> fields off the coast of California that have been made off limits
> because of the environmentalists. The fact is that oil can be
> extracted from these areas with virtually no impact on the
> surrounding environment.
>
> Personally, I don't believe there is a shortage of oil in the ground
> and there won't be for many, many decades. It is the system that
> extracts it and refines it that is causing the current problem. I
> think in 1-2 years from now the prices will stabilize and will
> remain that way for 10-15 years.

I pretty much agree. They wanted the US prices to get up to around
$3/gal give or take, and here we are.

This new level of fuel prices and home prices combined with the fact
that more people than ever are further in debt than ever before in
history should make for some interesting economic times ahead.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 07:11:45 GMT, "Jim Warman"
> wrote:

>I think it is pure and simple price gouging.... Our government exacts a
>cruel tax on petroleum products and the refineries charge what they an get
>away with.
>
>I had my own gas station for several years.... this was a leased premise
>scenario.... My service rep would never allow me to move my prices down....
>no matter what the local price was, I would never make enough for the gas
>bar to pay for itself (I was allowed a little over 3 cents per litre....
>anything else, the oil company took. I could move my price down if I wanted
>to take a sh*t kicking but, if I started a gas war, my oil company wouldn't
>help me out. Heck, if the guy down the street started a gas war, my oil
>company wouldn't help me out.
>
>I'm not sure of the exacxt number here in Alberta (it varies province to
>province) but about 40% of our gasoline price is taxes.... IIRC, the world
>price on a barrel of oil is based on west Texas crude....high quality crude
>can go for higher and lower quality crude can go for lower.... the chemist
>have us there since they can determine what products are easily extracted
>from the base and which products will require special treatment such as
>catalyst treating....What it boils down to is like being a farmer.... a
>farmer might get $200 for a good steer,,,, the butcher can turn that steer
>into over $1000 worth of meat. If the butcher sticks to his guns, he can
>always find a farmer that will part with a good steer for cheap.

Speaking of this. How come during the height of the "mad cow" scare
when no one wanted Canadian beef, CANADIANS were being charged
$39/kilo in some cases for top end steak? I HATE fixed markets.
-Rich



"Bittorrents are REFUNDS for all the BAD movie products Hollywood
never gave us refunds for in the past"

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:11:37 -0400, "Michael Johnson, PE"
> wrote:

>Sounds like you have the government jacking the price up beyond what we
>have due to the much higher tax rate. I thought our rates are
>ridiculous! Here I think New York has about the highest gasoline tax
>rate at a little over 30%. Most states are around 20-22%. Just like
>here, I don't understand why you Canadians let your politicians
>continually rape you on high taxes. Considering Canada is a net
>exporter of oil makes high gasoline prices even more disgusting, IMO.

I've often thought that, but once your government becomes the biggest
"business" in the country, they tend to want to keep it that way
and NEVER scale back. They also do what they please with the money
they rake in. The Canadian population is too used to the nanny state
to object. The only thing that will change it is a popular revolution
and that is very unlikely.
-Rich



"Bittorrents are REFUNDS for all the BAD movie products Hollywood
never gave us refunds for in the past"