What about these gifts to Toyota

Tim wrote:
> News wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mark A wrote:
>>
>>> While you are tracking subsidies for a business moving to a city, or
>>> for not moving away, don't forget the professional sports franchises.
>>> The subsidies (and blackmail) for the sports teams dwarfs anything
>>> given to other businesses, and is of questionable economic benefit.
>>
>>
>>
>> Quite true. Quite excessive. Quite a waste.
>
>
> Don't get me started.


Go for it!

"gpsman" > wrote in message
> Ok, then. Are they sufficiently compensated to live more or less
> comfortably, invest adequately for retirement, accumulate an emergency
> nest-egg, put a couple kids through college, cover the cost of elder
> care for their parents and prepared for the cost of their own (husband
> & wife) health care after retirement?

Yes, IMO.
>
> ISTM UAW members are not so much over-compensated as the greatest
> number of non-members are under-compensated.
>
> It's difficult for me to tell what is "fact"; I've heard numbers
> ranging from about $30 hr. to over $100.
>
> ISTM an average man ought to be able to afford to comfortably support
> his family, prepare for retirement and allow his wife to provide
> primary care for the children.
>
> Instead... well, you know what we now have instead. A ****load of
> insufficiently supervised and parented children.
> -----
>
> - gpsman

Partially agree, but it is much more complicated. Born in the mid 40's, I
was raised in a family with one income and a stay at home mom. Most
families were like that. My own family was like that also. My wife has
worked a total of about 2 of our 42 years together.

Somewhere along the line, women decided they wanted careers, jobs with
responsibility that was typically "men's work" years ago. Then we all
wanted "stuff" Lots of stuff. We want stuff, but we don't want to get our
hands dirty so if we buy some stuff from Japan, we can get it cheaper and we
can afford even more stuff. Then the big box stores sell us stuff even
cheaper, and we will drive 50 miles to buy the stuff a dollar cheaper than
our local stores.

So, while we demand good wages, we are not willing to pay our neighbor that
same wage to make the products we want to buy cheap.

Skilled blue collar workers, once the backbone of the middle class are going
fast. Rather than become mechanics and machinists, we want to be account
managers and administrators. Rather than pay $35 for a made in the USA
shirt, we'll go to Wal-Mart for that $12 made in Bangladesh shirt. Cameras?
Computers?

In the past, retail jobs (woman's work) paid less than assemblers and
welders (men's work) as they did not have the same skill levels. The better
paying jobs are now mostly in China. Part is the desire to make big
profits, part is the fact that the consumer demands low prices.

Here I sit typing on my USA technology keyboard that was made in Thailand.
Let's look in the mirror together.

On Dec 17, 10:21*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:

> Skilled blue collar workers, once the backbone of the middle class are going
> fast. *Rather than become mechanics and machinists, we want to be account
> managers and administrators. *Rather than pay $35 for a made in the USA
> shirt, we'll go to Wal-Mart for that $12 made in Bangladesh shirt. *Cameras?
> Computers?

I understand your position Ed and I do respect it. I'm definitely
anti-Wal-Mart and shop also try to support my local hardware,
plumbing, etc. stores whenever possible (but they do make it hard for
someone who works 8 to 5...) the problem is that in the case of cars
(and other goods too,) your Bangladeshi "shirt" is likely of higher
quality than the USA-made "shirt" as well as costing less, so what's a
consumer to do? There's conflicting principles at work here... one
does not want to support sweatshop labor and outsourcing of jobs (not
that cars are typically made in sweatshops, but garments may be) but
then again I firmly believe in buying the highest quality product for
my dollar, because we've already been flooded with cheap, low-quality
junk, and even in instances where I judge that the cheap product may
get me by, the pro-grade, high quality (tools, replacement auto parts,
plumbing supplies, door hardware, insert whatever you're shopping for
here) are so rare on the ground that I feel some obligation to support
manufacturers of high quality products no matter where they may
originate.

I was just ranting about this fairly recently on another newsgroup...
a common household product seems to be a shower caddy with an
expanding, spring loaded pole with a couple wire basket shelves that
sits in the corner of your shower. I wanted one for my house, as my
tub/shower area is tiled nearly to the ceiling, and there's no handy
place to hold soap, washcloths, etc. All the ones sold in stores are
chrome plated mild steel; I had to mail order a stainless steel one
and it took a good bit of searching to find it, and the source from
which I ordered it could not get one for several weeks. Now anyone
with any sense knows that unless one polishes the chromed thing
regularly (a chore about as appealing as cleaning wire wheels) it'll
rust noticeably and look shabby fairly quickly. And yet, go to the
store and that is all you find... for maybe $20-30 less than the good
product that it is imitating, which you have to specially search out
and mail order...

nate

>"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> So is the waste of 1000 kids who died from diarrhea disease in India,
> alone. Many more are dying needlessly in other countries.
>
> Jeff

According to recent disclosures about contributors to Bill Clinton's
Foundation that funds the Bill Clinton Presidential Library in Arkansas, the
following people or companies donated money. Donor amounts are were only
disclosed in ranges. The donor list was only released because Hilary has
been nominated for Secretary of State:

- Amar Singh, an Indian politician, $1 million to $5 million.

- Suzlon Energy Ltd (whose chairman is Tulsi R. Tanti, one of India's
wealthiest executives), $1 million to $5 million.

- Confederation of Indian Industry, an industrial trade association, between
$500,000 and $1 million.

- Dave Katragadda, an Indian capital manager with holdings in media and
entertainment, technology, health care and financial services, between
$500,000 and $1 million.

Now please explain to me why the American people should give money for
starving people in India when its own wealthy citizens and corporations are
donating huge amounts of money to building Clinton's Presidential Library.

Not to mention that all of this is not going to go over well with Pakistan,
who we rely on to help fight the war against Al Qaeda along the Pakistan and
Afghanistan border (and where bin Laden is most likely hiding).

On 18 Dec, 17:25, "Mark A" > wrote:
> >"Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > So is the waste of 1000 kids who died from diarrhea disease in India,
> > alone. Many more are dying needlessly in other countries.
>
> > Jeff
>
> According to recent disclosures about contributors to Bill Clinton's
> Foundation that funds the Bill Clinton Presidential Library in Arkansas, the
> following people or companies donated money. Donor amounts are were only
> disclosed in ranges. The donor list was only released because Hilary has
> been nominated for Secretary of State:
>
> - Amar Singh, an Indian politician, $1 million to $5 million.
>
> - Suzlon Energy Ltd (whose chairman is Tulsi R. Tanti, one of India's
> wealthiest executives), $1 million to $5 million.
>
> - Confederation of Indian Industry, an industrial trade association, between
> $500,000 and $1 million.
>
> - Dave Katragadda, an Indian capital manager with holdings in media and
> entertainment, technology, health care and financial services, between
> $500,000 and $1 million.
>
> Now please explain to me why the American people should give money for
> starving people in India when its own wealthy citizens and corporations are
> donating huge amounts of money to building Clinton's Presidential Library.
>
> Not to mention that all of this is not going to go over well with Pakistan,
> who we rely on to help fight the war against Al Qaeda along the Pakistan and
> Afghanistan border (and where bin Laden is most likely hiding).

Bin Laden is in Pakistan and they have no wish to release him.
Bush does not wish to catch him either.

"Gosi" > wrote in message
...
> Bin Laden is in Pakistan and they have no wish to release him.
> Bush does not wish to catch him either.

There is no basis to say that Bush does not want to catch bin Laden. If you
know where he is, let us know, and I will bet you that he is killed. The US
has killed quite a few civilians with collateral damage trying to get bin
Laden and the Al Qaeda organization and there are limits as to what we can
do in Pakistan without throwing it into total chaos and into the hands of
terrorist sympathizers.

In your gross ignorance, I am suspect you are not aware that Pakistan is a
nuclear power, and if the Pakistan government gets into the hands of the
extremists, even for a few months, those weapons will be handed over to Al
Qaeda, and probably Iran, and probably others who are hostile to the US.
Such weapons, even if not used against the US, would be used against Israel,
who will respond in kind, likely setting off regional nuclear war and
driving the world into its worst depression even if it survives the
conflicts.

On 18 Dec, 17:50, "Mark A" > wrote:
> "Gosi" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Bin Laden is in Pakistan and they have no wish to release him.
> > Bush does not wish to catch him either.
>
> There is no basis to say that Bush does not want to catch bin Laden. If you
> know where he is, let us know, and I will bet you that he is killed. The US
> has killed quite a few civilians with collateral damage trying to get bin
> Laden and the Al Qaeda organization and there are limits as to what we can
> do in Pakistan without throwing it into total chaos and into the hands of
> terrorist sympathizers.
>

It is already and so is the US

How do you know that? Was it revealed to you in one of your dreams, like
most of the other things you post? LOL

"Gosi" > wrote in message
...

>
> Bin Laden is in Pakistan and they have no wish to release him.
> Bush does not wish to catch him either.

If Americans did not buy imported products, retailers would not stock
imported products, and American companies and Good paying jobs they provided
would still be around.

Yours is the greedy American consumer convoluted attitude that has led to so
many of our manufacturing going off shore. THAT is why the good paying jobs
of people like you, your neighbors, you children and your grand children are
going off shore. The only "good" thing about that has been a huge portion
of our pollution went off shore with the jobs. If guys like Al Gore, Obama
and the Governor(s) of California, New York and Pennsylvania have their way
soon all of our manufacturing and pollution we be off shore as well
LOL




"N8N" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 17, 10:21 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:

> Skilled blue collar workers, once the backbone of the middle class are
> going
> fast. Rather than become mechanics and machinists, we want to be account
> managers and administrators. Rather than pay $35 for a made in the USA
> shirt, we'll go to Wal-Mart for that $12 made in Bangladesh shirt.
> Cameras?
> Computers?

I understand your position Ed and I do respect it. I'm definitely
anti-Wal-Mart and shop also try to support my local hardware,
plumbing, etc. stores whenever possible (but they do make it hard for
someone who works 8 to 5...) the problem is that in the case of cars
(and other goods too,) your Bangladeshi "shirt" is likely of higher
quality than the USA-made "shirt" as well as costing less, so what's a
consumer to do? There's conflicting principles at work here... one
does not want to support sweatshop labor and outsourcing of jobs (not
that cars are typically made in sweatshops, but garments may be) but
then again I firmly believe in buying the highest quality product for
my dollar, because we've already been flooded with cheap, low-quality
junk, and even in instances where I judge that the cheap product may
get me by, the pro-grade, high quality (tools, replacement auto parts,
plumbing supplies, door hardware, insert whatever you're shopping for
here) are so rare on the ground that I feel some obligation to support
manufacturers of high quality products no matter where they may
originate.

I was just ranting about this fairly recently on another newsgroup...
a common household product seems to be a shower caddy with an
expanding, spring loaded pole with a couple wire basket shelves that
sits in the corner of your shower. I wanted one for my house, as my
tub/shower area is tiled nearly to the ceiling, and there's no handy
place to hold soap, washcloths, etc. All the ones sold in stores are
chrome plated mild steel; I had to mail order a stainless steel one
and it took a good bit of searching to find it, and the source from
which I ordered it could not get one for several weeks. Now anyone
with any sense knows that unless one polishes the chromed thing
regularly (a chore about as appealing as cleaning wire wheels) it'll
rust noticeably and look shabby fairly quickly. And yet, go to the
store and that is all you find... for maybe $20-30 less than the good
product that it is imitating, which you have to specially search out
and mail order...

nate

Name one top quality American product available at any price. I will
bet you that it falls under one of the following categories:

1) I already own it or am considering purchasing it.
2) It is a product that I have no use for.

There's a lot of products that are simply not available in top quality
form from any American manufacturer. The reasons for that are not the
fault of any one individual consumer, and I refuse to feel guilty for
purchasing foreign made products in that instance.

nate

On Dec 18, 2:10*pm, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:
> If Americans did not buy imported products, retailers would not stock
> imported products, and American companies and Good paying jobs they provided
> would still be around.
>
> Yours is the greedy American consumer convoluted attitude that has led to so
> many of our manufacturing going off shore. THAT is why the good paying jobs
> of people like you, your neighbors, you children and your grand children are
> going off shore. *The only "good" thing about that has been a huge portion
> of our pollution went off shore with the jobs. * If guys like Al Gore, Obama
> and the Governor(s) of California, New York and Pennsylvania have their way
> soon all of our manufacturing and pollution we be off shore as well
> LOL
>
> "N8N" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Dec 17, 10:21 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:
>
> > Skilled blue collar workers, once the backbone of the middle class are
> > going
> > fast. Rather than become mechanics and machinists, we want to be account
> > managers and administrators. Rather than pay $35 for a made in the USA
> > shirt, we'll go to Wal-Mart for that $12 made in Bangladesh shirt.
> > Cameras?
> > Computers?
>
> I understand your position Ed and I do respect it. *I'm definitely
> anti-Wal-Mart and shop also try to support my local hardware,
> plumbing, etc. stores whenever possible (but they do make it hard for
> someone who works 8 to 5...) the problem is that in the case of cars
> (and other goods too,) your Bangladeshi "shirt" is likely of higher
> quality than the USA-made "shirt" as well as costing less, so what's a
> consumer to do? *There's conflicting principles at work here... one
> does not want to support sweatshop labor and outsourcing of jobs (not
> that cars are typically made in sweatshops, but garments may be) but
> then again I firmly believe in buying the highest quality product for
> my dollar, because we've already been flooded with cheap, low-quality
> junk, and even in instances where I judge that the cheap product may
> get me by, the pro-grade, high quality (tools, replacement auto parts,
> plumbing supplies, door hardware, insert whatever you're shopping for
> here) are so rare on the ground that I feel some obligation to support
> manufacturers of high quality products no matter where they may
> originate.
>
> I was just ranting about this fairly recently on another newsgroup...
> a common household product seems to be a shower caddy with an
> expanding, spring loaded pole with a couple wire basket shelves that
> sits in the corner of your shower. *I wanted one for my house, as my
> tub/shower area is tiled nearly to the ceiling, and there's no handy
> place to hold soap, washcloths, etc. *All the ones sold in stores are
> chrome plated mild steel; I had to mail order a stainless steel one
> and it took a good bit of searching to find it, and the source from
> which I ordered it could not get one for several weeks. *Now anyone
> with any sense knows that unless one polishes the chromed thing
> regularly (a chore about as appealing as cleaning wire wheels) it'll
> rust noticeably and look shabby fairly quickly. *And yet, go to the
> store and that is all you find... for maybe $20-30 less than the good
> product that it is imitating, which you have to specially search out
> and mail order...
>
> nate