Help w/ rough idle and poor gas mileage

On 2004-11-18 22:44:26 -0500, (Mike R) said:

> In article <2004111819405616807%josephamadeusNSPAM@mindspring com>, Pepito
> > wrote:
>
>> Hello folks I am experiencing rough idle when the engine is on for 20
>> minutes or more, I am also noticing a really poor gas milleage.This
>> problem have been increasing with time. There are no computer error
>> codes to give me a clue of what the problem could be, anyone have any
>> ideas?
>>
>> I got this car a year ago and I haven't checked if there is a
>> thermostat, the fan starts as soon as I open the ignition which means
>> it is connected to activate with the ignition opening. When I start the
>> engine cold, it takes a long time to warm and come down from around
>> 2000 rpms to 750 rpms and I think it works way to cold to be in
>> Florida. Please help me fix this old pony before I junk it.
>
> You've got the 2.3L engine, which means the fan is governed by the CCRM
> and ECM. Unless your model year is designed differently than the 93s, the
> fan should operate under the following conditions:
>
> Engine temp reaches 221 degree threshold-->fan on
> Engine temp drops down to 200 degree threshold-->fan off
>
> A/C on with lack of air flow due to vehicle speed; 43mph or lower-->fan
> on, and at 48mph-->fan off.
>
> Note: All above operations are with the ignition switch to run position only.
>
> If the fan starts instantly with a cold engine for instance, you may have
> a defective CCRM, ECM, ECM receiving false inputs or possibly the previous
> owner has modified the fan operation. I would first suspect the CCRM
> (constant control relay module). All of this might explain the engine
> having difficulties warming up, hence poor fuel economy among other
> things. Again, the fan is NOT suppose to constantly operate when the
> ignition is in the run position. This is the impression I'm getting from
> your post.
>
> If the t-stat has been removed by the previous owner, you can check for
> max coolant flow after starting a cold engine. If replacement is needed,
> install a 192 degree t-stat like B/M already mentioned...HTH

Thanks for the output Mike, isn't the CCRM supposed to give me a
computer error code if it was faulty? I have no error codes present at
this moment. Looks like the fan is "set" to operate as soon as you open
the ignition. A lot of people do that to their old cars in Florida when
their fans start to fail.

My CCRM failed & no codes were set. I wired a switch to my fan... and I
usually just leave it on.

-Mike

--
A happy kid behind the wheel of a 98 Mustang GT
Cold air intake
FRPP 3.73 gears
Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter
Full Boar turbo mufflers
Hi-speed fan switch
255/60R-15 rear tires
Subframe connectors


"Pepito" > wrote in message
news:2004111909545716807%josephamadeusNSPAM@mindsp ringcom...
> On 2004-11-18 22:44:26 -0500, (Mike R) said:
>
> > In article <2004111819405616807%josephamadeusNSPAM@mindspring com>,
Pepito
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> Hello folks I am experiencing rough idle when the engine is on for 20
> >> minutes or more, I am also noticing a really poor gas milleage.This
> >> problem have been increasing with time. There are no computer error
> >> codes to give me a clue of what the problem could be, anyone have any
> >> ideas?
> >>
> >> I got this car a year ago and I haven't checked if there is a
> >> thermostat, the fan starts as soon as I open the ignition which means
> >> it is connected to activate with the ignition opening. When I start the
> >> engine cold, it takes a long time to warm and come down from around
> >> 2000 rpms to 750 rpms and I think it works way to cold to be in
> >> Florida. Please help me fix this old pony before I junk it.
> >
> > You've got the 2.3L engine, which means the fan is governed by the CCRM
> > and ECM. Unless your model year is designed differently than the 93s,
the
> > fan should operate under the following conditions:
> >
> > Engine temp reaches 221 degree threshold-->fan on
> > Engine temp drops down to 200 degree threshold-->fan off
> >
> > A/C on with lack of air flow due to vehicle speed; 43mph or lower-->fan
> > on, and at 48mph-->fan off.
> >
> > Note: All above operations are with the ignition switch to run position
only.
> >
> > If the fan starts instantly with a cold engine for instance, you may
have
> > a defective CCRM, ECM, ECM receiving false inputs or possibly the
previous
> > owner has modified the fan operation. I would first suspect the CCRM
> > (constant control relay module). All of this might explain the engine
> > having difficulties warming up, hence poor fuel economy among other
> > things. Again, the fan is NOT suppose to constantly operate when the
> > ignition is in the run position. This is the impression I'm getting from
> > your post.
> >
> > If the t-stat has been removed by the previous owner, you can check for
> > max coolant flow after starting a cold engine. If replacement is needed,
> > install a 192 degree t-stat like B/M already mentioned...HTH
>
> Thanks for the output Mike, isn't the CCRM supposed to give me a
> computer error code if it was faulty? I have no error codes present at
> this moment. Looks like the fan is "set" to operate as soon as you open
> the ignition. A lot of people do that to their old cars in Florida when
> their fans start to fail.
>

On 2004-11-19 12:15:54 -0500, > said:

> My CCRM failed & no codes were set. I wired a switch to my fan... and I
> usually just leave it on.
>
> -Mike

Looks like the thermostat is working fine, there is no flow through the
radiator when the car is started cold, takes a couple of minutes for
the engine to warm and lower the rpms.

Rough idle still there bothering the hell out of me and poor gas
mileage anyone have an idea what can cause this problems?

Probably a stuck injector if the car is in tune. Have you done a tuneup
to baseline the engine. Change the plugs and wires and the PCV. Once
this has been completed check the fuel pressure with a gauge and the
schrader valve is on the fuel rail. Check the pressure when it is
running and when it is off with the key in the run mode. If there is a
leaky injector it will drop in fuel pressure when the key is on but the
engine is off. When the car is running you should notice a stady state
of fuel pressure when the engine is at idle. Oh, you did not mention if
the MIL was on.

Pepito wrote:

> Hello folks I am experiencing rough idle when the engine is on for 20
> minutes or more, I am also noticing a really poor gas milleage.This
> problem have been increasing with time. There are no computer error
> codes to give me a clue of what the problem could be, anyone have any
> ideas?
>
> I got this car a year ago and I haven't checked if there is a
> thermostat, the fan starts as soon as I open the ignition which means it
> is connected to activate with the ignition opening. When I start the
> engine cold, it takes a long time to warm and come down from around 2000
> rpms to 750 rpms and I think it works way to cold to be in Florida.
> Please help me fix this old pony before I junk it.
>

On 2004-11-19 14:35:01 -0500, John Smith > said:

> Probably a stuck injector if the car is in tune. Have you done a
> tuneup to baseline the engine. Change the plugs and wires and the PCV.
> Once this has been completed check the fuel pressure with a gauge and
> the schrader valve is on the fuel rail. Check the pressure when it is
> running and when it is off with the key in the run mode. If there is a
> leaky injector it will drop in fuel pressure when the key is on but the
> engine is off. When the car is running you should notice a stady state
> of fuel pressure when the engine is at idle. Oh, you did not mention
> if the MIL was on.
>
> Pepito wrote:
>
>> Hello folks I am experiencing rough idle when the engine is on for 20
>> minutes or more, I am also noticing a really poor gas milleage.This
>> problem have been increasing with time. There are no computer error
>> codes to give me a clue of what the problem could be, anyone have any
>> ideas?
>>
>> I got this car a year ago and I haven't checked if there is a
>> thermostat, the fan starts as soon as I open the ignition which means
>> it is connected to activate with the ignition opening. When I start the
>> engine cold, it takes a long time to warm and come down from around
>> 2000 rpms to 750 rpms and I think it works way to cold to be in
>> Florida. Please help me fix this old pony before I junk it.

I was thinking about replacing the spark plugs and wires, what is the "MIL"?

On 11/19/2004 12:16 PM, Pepito wrote:

> On 2004-11-19 14:35:01 -0500, John Smith > said:
>
>> Probably a stuck injector if the car is in tune. Have you done a
>> tuneup to baseline the engine. Change the plugs and wires and the
>> PCV. Once this has been completed check the fuel pressure with a
>> gauge and the schrader valve is on the fuel rail. Check the pressure
>> when it is running and when it is off with the key in the run mode.
>> If there is a leaky injector it will drop in fuel pressure when the
>> key is on but the engine is off. When the car is running you should
>> notice a stady state of fuel pressure when the engine is at idle. Oh,
>> you did not mention if the MIL was on.
>>
>
> I was thinking about replacing the spark plugs and wires, what is the
> "MIL"?

"Malfunction Indicator Light," AKA the check engine light.


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On 2004-11-19 15:26:58 -0500, Garth Almgren > said:

> On 11/19/2004 12:16 PM, Pepito wrote:
>
>> On 2004-11-19 14:35:01 -0500, John Smith > said:
>>
>>> Probably a stuck injector if the car is in tune. Have you done a
>>> tuneup to baseline the engine. Change the plugs and wires and the PCV.
>>> Once this has been completed check the fuel pressure with a gauge and
>>> the schrader valve is on the fuel rail. Check the pressure when it is
>>> running and when it is off with the key in the run mode. If there is a
>>> leaky injector it will drop in fuel pressure when the key is on but the
>>> engine is off. When the car is running you should notice a stady state
>>> of fuel pressure when the engine is at idle. Oh, you did not mention
>>> if the MIL was on.
>>>
>>
>> I was thinking about replacing the spark plugs and wires, what is the "MIL"?
>
> "Malfunction Indicator Light," AKA the check engine light.

Thanks for the info Garth, no MIL or error codes present. If this
helps, there's also a strong gas smell coming from the exaust, clear
smoke but smelly.

Pepito opined

>
> Thanks for the info Garth, no MIL or error codes present. If this
> helps, there's also a strong gas smell coming from the exaust, clear
> smoke but smelly.
>

you said it took a long time for the engine to warm... does it, or not?


But your PROBLEM is not a manifold leak... it's PROBABLY a bad Fuel Pressure
Regulator... if you disconnect the tubing (to the upper intake) from the
little can attached to the fuel rail, I bet you'll find there's gas in it.

Even if there isnt change it anyway.. it WILL fail.

Must be the season... this is about the 4th I've seen on here and the ford
group in a month.

This would account for a slighly longer warm-up than usual and often doesnt
set the light because the leak is slight enough that the ECM adjusts.

The 88 didnt set lite for much of anything other than O2 errors anyway.

On 2004-11-19 16:21:49 -0500, Backyard Mechanic > said:

> Pepito opined
>>
>> Thanks for the info Garth, no MIL or error codes present. If this
>> helps, there's also a strong gas smell coming from the exaust, clear
>> smoke but smelly.
>>
>
> you said it took a long time for the engine to warm... does it, or not?
>
>
> But your PROBLEM is not a manifold leak... it's PROBABLY a bad Fuel
> Pressure Regulator... if you disconnect the tubing (to the upper
> intake) from the little can attached to the fuel rail, I bet you'll
> find there's gas in it.
>
> Even if there isnt change it anyway.. it WILL fail.
>
> Must be the season... this is about the 4th I've seen on here and the
> ford group in a month.
>
> This would account for a slighly longer warm-up than usual and often
> doesnt set the light because the leak is slight enough that the ECM
> adjusts.
>
> The 88 didnt set lite for much of anything other than O2 errors anyway.

Thanks BM, the engine takes like 2 or 3 minutes to warm up. Where is
the Fuel Pressure Regulator located?

Pepito opined in news:2004111917114875249%josephamadeusNSPAM@mindsp ringcom:

> On 2004-11-19 16:21:49 -0500, Backyard Mechanic > said:
>
>> Pepito opined
>>>
>>> Thanks for the info Garth, no MIL or error codes present. If this
>>> helps, there's also a strong gas smell coming from the exaust, clear
>>> smoke but smelly.
>>>
>>
>> you said it took a long time for the engine to warm... does it, or not?
>>
>>
>> But your PROBLEM is not a manifold leak... it's PROBABLY a bad Fuel
>> Pressure Regulator... if you disconnect the tubing (to the upper
>> intake) from the little can attached to the fuel rail, I bet you'll
>> find there's gas in it.


>
> Thanks BM, the engine takes like 2 or 3 minutes to warm up. Where is
> the Fuel Pressure Regulator located?
>
On the injector fuel rail.. just forward of the upper intake, see above.

Much time might have been saved if you had mentioned tha gas smell in the
exhaust earlier... EVERY odd thing may count!