Hybrid Lovers Read This and Lament

Whoever wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Mike Hunter wrote:
>
>> Hydrides use higher voltage to produce the proper amperage to do the
>> work.
>> To do so with LA batteries you would need a truck load. All common
>> flashlight batteries produce 1 1/2 volts but the larger sizes produce
>> more
>> amps. Ask Mr. Ohms
>
>
> I think Mr. Ohms did not give you a complete reply when you asked him.
>
> Different battery technologies have different voltages per CELL. A
> normal flashlight battery is a single cell that produces 1.5v. NiCd
> battery cells produce a little under 1.5v. Lead acid battery cells
> produce 2v per cell -- a normal 12v battery has 6 cells in series.
>
> There are 2 other factors that are key to battery usage:
> 1. Internal resistance. This really determines how large a current the
> battery can deliver.
> 2. Capacity: how long can the battery deliver the necessary current?
>
> Now, to replace a battery with one of a different type, one would have
> to match the voltage and the internal resistance (otherwise it would not
> produce the necessary power) of the original. To build a small 48v LA
> battery is not hard -- it just requires 24 cells, each of which could be
> quite small. The overall size need not be bigger than a standard 12v
> battery.
>
> The next question becomes the capacity -- or really, the energy storage
> density. How much energy can you store in a given weight or size?
>
> Finally, as was mentioned earlier, charging would likely be a problem
> when replacing one type of battery with another: a charging profile that
> works well for one battery technology may kill another quite quickly.
>
> So, it's not just about what Mr. Ohm says, but also what Mr. Capacity
> says and Mr. charging profile.
>
> So, the question should be: Will they also design a trailer to carry all
> the LA batteries need to store enough energy?
>

Exactly. I didn't realize they used a nominal 48V. So to modify what I
said in my previous, you could get the 48 volts still with a pocketful
(6) of 9-volt transistor radio batteries. Like you said - you have to
have the energy/power. That's why I said that voltage is only half the
equation.

Since we're being picky, as with all units named after a person, the
convention is to capitalize the 'V' when *abbreviating* "volts", and to
*not* capitalize it when writing it out. For example, you would write
"48 volt battery", or "48V battery".

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Bill Putney wrote:

> Whoever wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Mike Hunter wrote:
>>
>> > Hydrides use higher voltage to produce the proper amperage to do the
>> > work.
>> > To do so with LA batteries you would need a truck load. All common
>> > flashlight batteries produce 1 1/2 volts but the larger sizes produce
>> > more
>> > amps. Ask Mr. Ohms
>>
>>
>> I think Mr. Ohms did not give you a complete reply when you asked him.
>>
>> Different battery technologies have different voltages per CELL. A
>> normal flashlight battery is a single cell that produces 1.5v. NiCd
>> battery cells produce a little under 1.5v. Lead acid battery cells
>> produce 2v per cell -- a normal 12v battery has 6 cells in series.
>>
>> There are 2 other factors that are key to battery usage:
>> 1. Internal resistance. This really determines how large a current the
>> battery can deliver.
>> 2. Capacity: how long can the battery deliver the necessary current?
>>
>> Now, to replace a battery with one of a different type, one would have
>> to match the voltage and the internal resistance (otherwise it would not
>> produce the necessary power) of the original. To build a small 48v LA
>> battery is not hard -- it just requires 24 cells, each of which could be
>> quite small. The overall size need not be bigger than a standard 12v
>> battery.
>>
>> The next question becomes the capacity -- or really, the energy storage
>> density. How much energy can you store in a given weight or size?
>>
>> Finally, as was mentioned earlier, charging would likely be a problem
>> when replacing one type of battery with another: a charging profile that
>> works well for one battery technology may kill another quite quickly.
>>
>> So, it's not just about what Mr. Ohm says, but also what Mr. Capacity
>> says and Mr. charging profile.
>>
>> So, the question should be: Will they also design a trailer to carry all
>> the LA batteries need to store enough energy?
>>
>
> Exactly. I didn't realize they used a nominal 48V.

I am not claiming that they use 48V. This may be correct, or not. I have
read that there are some plans to move all vehicle systems to 48V.

> Since we're being picky, as with all units named after a person, the
> convention is to capitalize the 'V' when *abbreviating* "volts", and to *not*
> capitalize it when writing it out. For example, you would write "48 volt
> battery", or "48V battery".

Thanks for the correction. I should have remembered that. I have even been
to Volta's birthplace.

"Whoever" > wrote in message
caldomain...
<snip>
> I have even been to Volta's birthplace.

<lol> We can only hope that you return to Volta's birthplace soon and
spare us further painfully boring rhetoric. You two could drive old
people to fornicate!

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to
> produce enough voltage?
>

:-)

Very funny, I'll admit I laughed.

But seriously, in a hybrid, the battery is simply used to store braking
energy, it is
not used as power source like batteries are in an electric car. The energy
comes
from the gasoline engine, the battery capacity only needs to be big enough
to store
a reserve.

http://www.edrivesystems.com/ has already demonstrated a working electric
vehicle
retrofit on the Prius that REPLACES the existing Prius NiMH battery and
Toyota
battery control computer. They aren't selling it yet - for obvious
reasons - no demand
since all the Priuses are still under battery warranty. But their install
keeps the
gasoline engine, which means that for a Prius to be a candidate for this
company, it
really needs to have a shot battery that isn't under warranty, and a
gasoline engine
that is expected to last at least for the following decade, in order to
cover the
expected life of the replacement system

I think this is not a particularly valid approach - because Toyota's battery
warranty
is going to insure that by the time the battery comes off warranty, that the
gasoline engine in the Prius will be shot.

A better approach I think is to gut the battery and engine and computer and
all that garbage out of the vehicle, and install an even larger battery pack
and
charger and make it fully an electric vehicle. It would, of course, kill
it's
usefulness for long distance interstate drives of hundreds of miles, but
it would be still very useful as an around-the-town vehicle.

The General Motors EV-1 program demonstrated that there IS a market for
fully electric vehicles. Lots of people screamed when GM took back their
EV1s. The problem with the GM initative is that the demand wasn't large
enough
for GM to make the EV1 profitably.

BUT, in a decade or so when there's lots of used Priuses that have shot
batteries,
not under warranty, and shot gasoline engines, why then the economics will
be quite different.

There have been people doing electric cars for years - Flight Systems Inc.
for
example sold plans to convert a Chevy Chevette to full electric, using a 6
volt
lead acid battery bank, back in 1982, that would go 30-40 miles on a single
charge. A book "build your own electric vehicle" by Bob Bryant in 1994 did
a 1993 Ford Ranger pickup conversion that would go 75Mph and got 60
miles to the charge that also used lead-acid batteries.

The only difference between these two more low-tech approaches and the
higher-tech edrivesystems approach, is the edrivesystems approach uses
lithion ion batteries, and a computer to manage power and charging, while
the older designs used simpler electronics and lead-acid batteries. The
higher-tech approach is more expensive and gets you a greater range, but
the lower-tech approach could be done by anyone in their garage.

So yes, I do think that when the warranty ends on the traction battery in
a hybrid, that there will be lots of choices other than to drop $5000 into
a new traction battery, into a vehicle that probably has about 4 years of
life left in it's gasoline engine.

Ted

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> "Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to
>>produce enough voltage?
>>
>
>
> :-)
>
> Very funny, I'll admit I laughed.
>
> But seriously, in a hybrid, the battery is simply used to store braking
> energy, it is
> not used as power source like batteries are in an electric car. The energy
> comes
> from the gasoline engine, the battery capacity only needs to be big enough
> to store
> a reserve.

It is used as a power source, just not the only power source. There are
many modes of operation where the power required by a hybrid exceeds
what the gasoline engine alone can provide and then the battery pack is
a power source.


> The General Motors EV-1 program demonstrated that there IS a market for
> fully electric vehicles. Lots of people screamed when GM took back their
> EV1s. The problem with the GM initative is that the demand wasn't large
> enough
> for GM to make the EV1 profitably.

They proved that there was a market for HIGHLY subsidized electric
vehicles. If they had charged what these vehicles actually cost them,
they market would have likely been zero. A subsidized market doesn't
reflect the true underlying demand.


> BUT, in a decade or so when there's lots of used Priuses that have shot
> batteries,
> not under warranty, and shot gasoline engines, why then the economics will
> be quite different.

Yep, the glow will wear off in a few more years as the first vehicles
begin to require substantial maintenance and replacement of expensive
components.

Matt

Or, better still:

48 V, which is the actual official way...

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...
[...]

"48V battery".
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
> with the letter 'x')

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> Better do some research on how the hybrid systems in the Pruis and the
> Escape operate, if that is what you believe. When I drove them, while
> running below a certain speed the electric motor alone did the motivating.
> The engine did not come on until they were up to speed or when the HVAC
> system was operating
>

Try driving one below a certain speed for more than 20 minutes and see
what happens.

This is a vehicle that takes gasoline as a power source, there is no plug
for a charger. I understood it only stores power generated from
braking but if they are powering it from the battery for low speed
operation, they are obviously running the gasoline motor in a way
as to produce more energy to motivate the car, and sucking some of
that off to charge the battery. Nevertheless, the battery does not
produce power out of thin air. It either comes from regenerative
braking or from the gasoline engine. Thus the battery capacity does
not need to be as large as a fully electric car. I still think it would
be quite easy to substitute lead-acid batteries for the NiMh traction
battery, assuming you wanted to preserve the gas engine and
such.

The significant thing here is that in the Prius or other hybrid you
have a complete vehicle chassis with an interior, carpet, seats,
etc. and powertrain that is fully electric. 80% of the work is done
for you in building an electric car, all you have to do is gut the
gas engine and traction battery and the Toyota computer, and
put your own batteries in, configured to supply the power that
the Toyota traction motor requires, and add a charger.

Clearly in old used Priuses, the traction battery and gasoline
engine will wear out long before the electric traction motors
do. It is really a ripe candidate for a conversion once that happens,
since you will be able to get them for practically nothing, and
nobody is forcing you to replace their guts with Toyota's
rather expensive hybrid system.

Ted

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> OK I was not entirely correct. They would NOT need to design a trailer
for
> the LA batteries, they will need to design one for the LA batteries AND an
> engine driven generator. Ask Mr. Ohms this question. Why are the 12v
> battery and the starter in my V8 Lincoln so much larger then the ones in a
> motorcycle, neither one of which needs to motivates the vehicle in
question?
> Why don't they just use 8 AAA batteries and a starter the size of a
> windshield wiper motor?
>

If AAA carbon batteries could supply the high current needed they would do
it, but if that was the case AAA batteries would be somewhat dangerous to
use
in consumer applications.

You can take 8 AAA nicads, fully charged, and draw an arc with them, though.
(OK, a small one)

Ted

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

>
> The significant thing here is that in the Prius or other hybrid you
> have a complete vehicle chassis with an interior, carpet, seats,
> etc. and powertrain that is fully electric. 80% of the work is done
> for you in building an electric car, all you have to do is gut the
> gas engine and traction battery and the Toyota computer, and
> put your own batteries in, configured to supply the power that
> the Toyota traction motor requires, and add a charger.
>
A group of researchers built an interesting mod to a Prius (or some other
hybrid). They added more batteries - but not enough for a long range --
and a charger.

The result was a vehicle that could cope with a short commute using energy
from the overnight charge, while long distances could also be achieved
through the gas engine. The overall fuel economy (and vehicle cost) was
significantly greater than that of the original hybrid, while the range
was grater than that of a 100% battery vehicle.

Mike Hunter wrote:

> OK I was not entirely correct. They would NOT need to design a trailer for
> the LA batteries, they will need to design one for the LA batteries AND an
> engine driven generator. Ask Mr. Ohms this question. Why are the 12v
> battery and the starter in my V8 Lincoln so much larger then the ones in a
> motorcycle, neither one of which needs to motivates the vehicle in question?
> Why don't they just use 8 AAA batteries and a starter the size of a
> windshield wiper motor?
>
>
> mike

Yes! And a recoil starter, just like on my snowblower for when the
batteries get weak!

Ken