Anco wiper blades called a CR best buy

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>
>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>> past 30
>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze,
>> brake fluid,
>> oil, etc.
>>
>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them other
>> than the
>> label.
>
> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>
> Same with coolant.
>
> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>
> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered. Long
> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the
> shelf
> at Goober's gas station.

Systems are engineered using available standard materials. I have seen
no indications that Honda has used systems that has forced or required
a technological breakthrough in auto fluids.

"Bob Jones" > wrote in message
...
>
> "L Alpert" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> Retired VIP wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:34:01 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article >,
>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>>>>>> past 30 years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF,
>>>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid, oil, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>>>> other than the label.
>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>
>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered.
>>>>> Long gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's
>>>>> off the shelf at Goober's gas station.
>>>>
>>>> What is so 'highly engineered' about a power steering system?
>>>> Exactly
>>>> what is there about Honda, Toyota, GM, Ford or Chrysler power
>>>> steering
>>>> fluid that makes it special? ATF fluid needs to supply the
>>>> proper
>>>> friction modifiers so there is a difference between Ford and GM
>>>> ATF
>>>> but if the after-market ATF has the proper modifiers, it will
>>>> perform
>>>> the same as the OEM stuff.
>>>>
>>>> I've been using Preston Anti-freeze (the green stuff) in my cars
>>>> for
>>>> the last 45 years and I have never had a engine or cooling system
>>>> problem that could have been caused by the coolant. Why pay
>>>> $15.00 a
>>>> gallon for anti-freeze that carries a GM or Ford brand when I can
>>>> get
>>>> something just as good for half the price?
>>>>
>>>> Jack
>>>
>>> antifreeze with silicates [cheap corrosion inhibitors] cause much
>>> sorter seal lives. there's increased abrasion of the seal
>>> interface.
>>
>> The correct type of antifreeze can be purchased for any vehicle.
>>
>
> But not all antifreeze of the same type are created equal for a
> particular vehicle.

The probability that Honda branded antifreeze is made on the same
equipment with the same ingredients and with the same process as
Prestone (or some other high volume manufacturer) is very high. There
are many non-silcate brands available.
>
>

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
>L Alpert wrote:
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In article >,
>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>>>> past 30
>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze,
>>>> brake fluid,
>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>
>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>> other than the
>>>> label.
>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>
>>> Same with coolant.
>>>
>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>
>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered.
>>> Long
>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the
>>> shelf
>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>
>> There is nothing specific about Honda fluids. They are generic
>> products
>
> i've proven that not true for at least two of the major car fluids.
>
> * use of non-honda power steering fluid in a honda system wrecks
> seals. i know that from personal experience.
>
> * use of non-honda transmission fluid, even one that allegedly
> exceeds the nominal dexron II spec, makes a honda transmission shift
> like you've been rear-ended. i know that from personal experience.
>
> i don't know any different facts on honda coolant or brake fluids,
> but based on the above, i can easily believe them to be of a high
> spec that exceeds relabeled generics.

While I respect your opinions (from what I've read in this group), I
would have to say that personal experiences are a small sample size.

I have had Honda vehicles for 30+ years, and never used any Honda
branded fluids, and never had an issue, though my personal experiences
are a small sample size as well, even if they differ from yours.



>
>
>> that are made by other manufacturers that label them for Honda.
>>
>> They may audit their suppliers, and will have specific requirements
>> for quality systems and/or ensure that they are ISO registered, but
>> of course, the systems also apply to anything they manufacture.
>
> iso has /nothing/ to do with a manufacturer's tech specs.

It has to do with quality systems and documentation.

Bob Jones > wrote:
>But not all antifreeze of the same type are created equal for a particular
>vehicle.

This is unfortunately true, and it's precisely the sort of thing I was
talking about. And it's an example of the technology outpacing the
standards.

You can go down to the local auto parts store today, and buy a generic
jug of coolant for your 1980 car, no problem.

In a few years, you should be able to go out to the local auto parts
store and buy a generic jug of coolant for your 2009 car, but not quite
yet for all cars.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

L Alpert wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> In article >,
>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>>>>> past 30
>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze,
>>>>> brake fluid,
>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>>> other than the
>>>>> label.
>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>
>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>
>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>
>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered.
>>>> Long
>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the
>>>> shelf
>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>> There is nothing specific about Honda fluids. They are generic
>>> products
>> i've proven that not true for at least two of the major car fluids.
>>
>> * use of non-honda power steering fluid in a honda system wrecks
>> seals. i know that from personal experience.
>>
>> * use of non-honda transmission fluid, even one that allegedly
>> exceeds the nominal dexron II spec, makes a honda transmission shift
>> like you've been rear-ended. i know that from personal experience.
>>
>> i don't know any different facts on honda coolant or brake fluids,
>> but based on the above, i can easily believe them to be of a high
>> spec that exceeds relabeled generics.
>
> While I respect your opinions (from what I've read in this group), I
> would have to say that personal experiences are a small sample size.
>
> I have had Honda vehicles for 30+ years, and never used any Honda
> branded fluids, and never had an issue, though my personal experiences
> are a small sample size as well, even if they differ from yours.

i don't use honda branded brake fluid or coolant. but i do use honda
branded atf and power steering because of past problems. when i was
young and dumb, you couldn't tell me that it was worth paying for honda
atf - afterall the book said it was just dexron II spec. however, when
my car started to shift badly after i changed out the fluid, you'd think
i'd learn, right? no. long story short - several cars [not just mine],
and some time later, the penny finally drops. honda atf /is/ different.
and a honda starts to shift better again immediately you revert back
to their stuff.

same for power steering fluid and watching people get leaks a couple of
months after using generic. multiple times over the years [though
fortunately, not on my cars]. i understand honda p/s fluid has silicone
in it and hardware different seal materials. don't ask me why.



>
>
>
>>
>>> that are made by other manufacturers that label them for Honda.
>>>
>>> They may audit their suppliers, and will have specific requirements
>>> for quality systems and/or ensure that they are ISO registered, but
>>> of course, the systems also apply to anything they manufacture.
>> iso has /nothing/ to do with a manufacturer's tech specs.
>
> It has to do with quality systems and documentation.

right - it paper-trails the production - iso9001 [etc] has nothing to do
with whether the spec was written correctly or is appropriate. it's
incredibly common for someone to spec the wrong material for a job - but
it's still perfectly iso compliant!

L Alpert wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>> Retired VIP > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott, I don't believe that Honda or any other car manufacturer
>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>> quality control testing on anything produced outside of their
>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>> factories.
>>>>>> Sure they do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They spec power steering fluid and auto trans fluid, and if you
>>>>>> bypass
>>>>>> their stuff, you see problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Engine oil, probably not.
>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>>>>> past 30 years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF,
>>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid, oil, etc.
>>>> i use c.o.t.s antifreeze, brake fluid etc., but not atf. in my
>>>> experience, the only atf that makes a honda shift well is honda
>>>> z1. if you've added non-honda fluid and it's been "ok", it sounds
>>>> like you haven't achieved full dilution.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>>> other than the label.
>>>> rather than just "doubt", why don't you do some homework? do you
>>>> "doubt" that the component quality used by honda under the hood is
>>>> any better than frod? have you ever dissected a honda vs.
>>>> non-honda spec igniter unit for instance? honda may not
>>>> manufacture half their stuff directly, but they /do/ write the
>>>> spec and /do/ undertake q.c.
>>>>
>>> While specific components that are manufactured for specific
>>> applications will be built for those applications, genric items
>>> that are manufactured to a general specification and relabled as
>>> OEM are not.
>> that statement is technically true...
>>
>>
>>> This is something I am quite familiar with, as I have been in the
>>> OEM industry for many years (non automotive, but OEM non the less).
>> but here's the problem, you're /presuming/ that to be always the
>> case. it's not! just because some manufacturers do that, doesn't
>> mean they all do.
>>
>
> We make the same component for 4 different companies. Although each
> customer has a slightly different specification, the process is
> designed to meet them all.
>
> For anyone to mass manufacture a single component under multiple
> processes and conditions would have great cost implications. It is an
> economic reality.

indeed. but i return to the original point - i can tell you from
experience that two "generic" products used on hondas are not generic at
all - atf and p/s fluid. just because others practice what you say,
doesn't mean they all do.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Bob Jones > wrote:
>> But not all antifreeze of the same type are created equal for a particular
>> vehicle.
>
> This is unfortunately true, and it's precisely the sort of thing I was
> talking about. And it's an example of the technology outpacing the
> standards.
>
> You can go down to the local auto parts store today, and buy a generic
> jug of coolant for your 1980 car, no problem.
>
> In a few years, you should be able to go out to the local auto parts
> store and buy a generic jug of coolant for your 2009 car, but not quite
> yet for all cars.
> --scott

it's not so long ago that you couldn't get non-silicate antifreeze at
the auto parts store - just like it took some time after honda engine
oil spec changed to 5w-20 before you could buy generics of that weight.

bottom line - in a lot of cases, you can buy a perfectly decent generic
qualified for its job. but the manufacturer brand is a /guarantee/ it
will work - generic is not.

> I have had Honda vehicles for 30+ years, and never used any Honda branded
> fluids, and never had an issue, though my personal experiences are a small
> sample size as well, even if they differ from yours.
>

What year is your Honda? Maybe older models are not subject to this kind of
requirements.

On my 2005 service manual, it clearly say that non-Honda antifreeze could
lead to corrossion. I am not sure if Prestone will do that but why take the
chance. Antifreeze is much cheaper than a water pump or a radiator.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
>L Alpert wrote:
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>> t...
>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>> Retired VIP > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott, I don't believe that Honda or any other car
>>>>>>>> manufacturer does
>>>>>>>> quality control testing on anything produced outside of their
>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> factories.
>>>>>>> Sure they do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They spec power steering fluid and auto trans fluid, and if
>>>>>>> you bypass
>>>>>>> their stuff, you see problems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Engine oil, probably not.
>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>>>>>> past 30 years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF,
>>>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid, oil, etc.
>>>>> i use c.o.t.s antifreeze, brake fluid etc., but not atf. in my
>>>>> experience, the only atf that makes a honda shift well is honda
>>>>> z1. if you've added non-honda fluid and it's been "ok", it
>>>>> sounds like you haven't achieved full dilution.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>>>> other than the label.
>>>>> rather than just "doubt", why don't you do some homework? do
>>>>> you "doubt" that the component quality used by honda under the
>>>>> hood is any better than frod? have you ever dissected a honda
>>>>> vs. non-honda spec igniter unit for instance? honda may not
>>>>> manufacture half their stuff directly, but they /do/ write the
>>>>> spec and /do/ undertake q.c.
>>>>>
>>>> While specific components that are manufactured for specific
>>>> applications will be built for those applications, genric items
>>>> that are manufactured to a general specification and relabled as
>>>> OEM are not.
>>> that statement is technically true...
>>>
>>>
>>>> This is something I am quite familiar with, as I have been in the
>>>> OEM industry for many years (non automotive, but OEM non the
>>>> less).
>>> but here's the problem, you're /presuming/ that to be always the
>>> case. it's not! just because some manufacturers do that, doesn't
>>> mean they all do.
>>>
>>
>> We make the same component for 4 different companies. Although
>> each customer has a slightly different specification, the process
>> is designed to meet them all.
>>
>> For anyone to mass manufacture a single component under multiple
>> processes and conditions would have great cost implications. It is
>> an economic reality.
>
> indeed. but i return to the original point - i can tell you from
> experience that two "generic" products used on hondas are not
> generic at all - atf and p/s fluid. just because others practice
> what you say, doesn't mean they all do.

Manufacturing is manufacturing. Unless someone can point to a
specification for Honda fluids that actually make them unique from
other good and commonly used SAE equivalent components, I will
continue to use those generics that are readily available.

While you have historically given very good advice in this newsgroup
and I respect your opinion on just about everything you post, I have
to disagree with the assessment of "Honda only fluids". It is a
common practice for just about every manufacturer to recommend in
their manuals to use only their fluids as a way of increasing sales of
these items. As I have stated before, my own experiences are quite
the opposite of yours, even with the small sample size of 5 Honda
vehicles over 30 years.
>

L Alpert wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>> t...
>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>> Retired VIP > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott, I don't believe that Honda or any other car
>>>>>>>>> manufacturer does
>>>>>>>>> quality control testing on anything produced outside of their
>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>> factories.
>>>>>>>> Sure they do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They spec power steering fluid and auto trans fluid, and if
>>>>>>>> you bypass
>>>>>>>> their stuff, you see problems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Engine oil, probably not.
>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>>>>>>> past 30 years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF,
>>>>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid, oil, etc.
>>>>>> i use c.o.t.s antifreeze, brake fluid etc., but not atf. in my
>>>>>> experience, the only atf that makes a honda shift well is honda
>>>>>> z1. if you've added non-honda fluid and it's been "ok", it
>>>>>> sounds like you haven't achieved full dilution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>>>>> other than the label.
>>>>>> rather than just "doubt", why don't you do some homework? do
>>>>>> you "doubt" that the component quality used by honda under the
>>>>>> hood is any better than frod? have you ever dissected a honda
>>>>>> vs. non-honda spec igniter unit for instance? honda may not
>>>>>> manufacture half their stuff directly, but they /do/ write the
>>>>>> spec and /do/ undertake q.c.
>>>>>>
>>>>> While specific components that are manufactured for specific
>>>>> applications will be built for those applications, genric items
>>>>> that are manufactured to a general specification and relabled as
>>>>> OEM are not.
>>>> that statement is technically true...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> This is something I am quite familiar with, as I have been in the
>>>>> OEM industry for many years (non automotive, but OEM non the
>>>>> less).
>>>> but here's the problem, you're /presuming/ that to be always the
>>>> case. it's not! just because some manufacturers do that, doesn't
>>>> mean they all do.
>>>>
>>> We make the same component for 4 different companies. Although
>>> each customer has a slightly different specification, the process
>>> is designed to meet them all.
>>>
>>> For anyone to mass manufacture a single component under multiple
>>> processes and conditions would have great cost implications. It is
>>> an economic reality.
>> indeed. but i return to the original point - i can tell you from
>> experience that two "generic" products used on hondas are not
>> generic at all - atf and p/s fluid. just because others practice
>> what you say, doesn't mean they all do.
>
> Manufacturing is manufacturing. Unless someone can point to a
> specification for Honda fluids that actually make them unique from
> other good and commonly used SAE equivalent components, I will
> continue to use those generics that are readily available.
>
> While you have historically given very good advice in this newsgroup
> and I respect your opinion on just about everything you post, I have
> to disagree with the assessment of "Honda only fluids". It is a
> common practice for just about every manufacturer to recommend in
> their manuals to use only their fluids as a way of increasing sales of
> these items.

we can agree on that - in principle.


> As I have stated before, my own experiences are quite
> the opposite of yours, even with the small sample size of 5 Honda
> vehicles over 30 years.

search the honda newsgroups - there's a tom of people disagree with you
on the atf/psf thing.

what atf do you use? and how often do you change it?