Brake bleeding issues, need help

Man I can't get decent pedal! 3/4 the way down and then if if your
lucky you won't have to pump em up. I've got to be doing something
wrong!

Start: bought the car 73 super, had mushy brakes and pulled to right
when hard braking, installed new hoses, front wheel cyls(one leaked),
and shoes all around. had decent brakes it seemed but more bleeding
was needed but it was cold out. Then we had a big snow, i had chains
on the rears and only the fronts would brake, car would only stop on
the ice with handbrake applied, which meant the rears werent getting
eny braking. So installed a new master cyl and rear cyls. bled more
cans of fluid through them, still 90% of the time !!WOW!! pedal all
the way to the floor and no brakes!! pump em up and give yourself
plenty of stopping distance. More bleeding: gravity bleeding,
pressure bleeding, pump pump pump hold bleeding, every method
described in every webpage and service manual ever written,(except
vacuum) still no changes.

OK maybe I got a bad brazil master cyl. so another 40 bucks for a new
one, installed and no changes, bled a big can through them, still no
air out of the whel cyls but still surprise all the way to the floor
pedal.

next step, drive it over a cliff!!

Any one got any ideas? or similar experiences that could help caue
I'm stumped.

ps, my ol 68 never had this kind of issue ever, i always gravity
bled for a few mins and all was well. it still has one inch pedal
before solid braking after last overhauling the brakes on it a few
years ago.

"Cletus" > wrote in message
...
> Man I can't get decent pedal! 3/4 the way down and then if if your
> lucky you won't have to pump em up. I've got to be doing something
> wrong!
>
> Start: bought the car 73 super, had mushy brakes and pulled to right
> when hard braking, installed new hoses, front wheel cyls(one leaked),
> and shoes all around. had decent brakes it seemed but more bleeding
> was needed but it was cold out. Then we had a big snow, i had chains
> on the rears and only the fronts would brake, car would only stop on
> the ice with handbrake applied, which meant the rears werent getting
> eny braking. So installed a new master cyl and rear cyls. bled more
> cans of fluid through them, still 90% of the time !!WOW!! pedal all
> the way to the floor and no brakes!! pump em up and give yourself
> plenty of stopping distance. More bleeding: gravity bleeding,
> pressure bleeding, pump pump pump hold bleeding, every method
> described in every webpage and service manual ever written,(except
> vacuum) still no changes.
>
> OK maybe I got a bad brazil master cyl. so another 40 bucks for a new
> one, installed and no changes, bled a big can through them, still no
> air out of the whel cyls but still surprise all the way to the floor
> pedal.
>
> next step, drive it over a cliff!!
>
> Any one got any ideas? or similar experiences that could help caue
> I'm stumped.
>
> ps, my ol 68 never had this kind of issue ever, i always gravity
> bled for a few mins and all was well. it still has one inch pedal
> before solid braking after last overhauling the brakes on it a few
> years ago.

excessive travel is usually caused by brakes not properly adjusted, too much
pedal freeplay, or air in the lines... seems you have the last one taken
care of....

Adjust ALL 8 brake shoe adjusters tight. Check the master pushrod, it must
have a tiny amount of freeplay before it engages the master cylinder piston.
Check pedal height while pressing pedal down.
I think I have even seen some wrong brake wheel cylinders installed.
Bleeders are never supposed to be below the hose.

If you have a firm pedal then it is an adjustment problem.
Adjust the adjuster to allow the drums to turn. Supers must have the
adjustment somewhat tight in the front and all adjustment screws need to be
oriented in the correct direction.

If you pedal is not firm then it is an hydraulic problem probably. You will
need to isolate the wheels and some do it by carefully clamping down on the
brake hoses.

NOW are you sure your front to rear brake line is not leaking?
--
later,
(One out of many daves)

"Cletus" > wrote in message
...
> Man I can't get decent pedal! 3/4 the way down and then if if your
> lucky you won't have to pump em up. I've got to be doing something
> wrong!
>
> Start: bought the car 73 super, had mushy brakes and pulled to right
> when hard braking, installed new hoses, front wheel cyls(one leaked),
> and shoes all around. had decent brakes it seemed but more bleeding
> was needed but it was cold out. Then we had a big snow, i had chains
> on the rears and only the fronts would brake, car would only stop on
> the ice with handbrake applied, which meant the rears werent getting
> eny braking. So installed a new master cyl and rear cyls. bled more
> cans of fluid through them, still 90% of the time !!WOW!! pedal all
> the way to the floor and no brakes!! pump em up and give yourself
> plenty of stopping distance. More bleeding: gravity bleeding,
> pressure bleeding, pump pump pump hold bleeding, every method
> described in every webpage and service manual ever written,(except
> vacuum) still no changes.
>
> OK maybe I got a bad brazil master cyl. so another 40 bucks for a new
> one, installed and no changes, bled a big can through them, still no
> air out of the whel cyls but still surprise all the way to the floor
> pedal.
>
> next step, drive it over a cliff!!
>
> Any one got any ideas? or similar experiences that could help caue
> I'm stumped.
>
> ps, my ol 68 never had this kind of issue ever, i always gravity
> bled for a few mins and all was well. it still has one inch pedal
> before solid braking after last overhauling the brakes on it a few
> years ago.

I tried the "adjust all brakes tight method" thats one of many methods
i've tried, same results. I've lenghthened out the pushrod as far as
it will go and no difference, I've got the brakes adjusted up, same
method I've always used on all my other VW's

Dave, I'm fairly sure i have no leaks, its not losing any fluid or is
there any dampness around the tunnel area under or inside the car.

"Cletus" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I've lenghthened out the pushrod as far as
> it will go and no difference,

aside from the fact that you shouldn't do that, it sounds like the master
cylinder is leaking internally... with the pushrod adjusted all the way out
you should have a four wheel parking brake...

Joey Tribiani wrote:
> "Cletus" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I've lenghthened out the pushrod as far as
>> it will go and no difference,
>
> aside from the fact that you shouldn't do that, it sounds like the master
> cylinder is leaking internally... with the pushrod adjusted all the way out
> you should have a four wheel parking brake...

Agreed... Adjust to the proper free play, never all the way out.

Les

Cletus wrote:
>
> I tried the "adjust all brakes tight method" thats one of many methods
> i've tried, same results. I've lenghthened out the pushrod as far as
> it will go and no difference, I've got the brakes adjusted up, same
> method I've always used on all my other VW's
>
> Dave, I'm fairly sure i have no leaks, its not losing any fluid or is
> there any dampness around the tunnel area under or inside the car.



Regarding the pushrod: With the pedal fully released, the pushrod MUST
have free play before it contacts the master cylinder piston. You have
no hope of ever getting the brakes to work right if there is no free play.
The spec is 1mm at the master cylinder.

After setting that, you may still need to bleed the master cylinder.
There may be air trapped inside it that doesn't get pushed out into the
brake lines. A pressure bleeder might be able to clear it, as it pushes
fluid through in a continuous motion, as opposed to the pulsating nature
of pedal pumping.
You can try to crack the lines open at the master cylinder too and bleed
from there.

> > I've lenghthened out the pushrod as far as
> > it will go and no difference,
>
> aside from the fact that you shouldn't do that,

Yea I know man, i WAS DESPERATE to try anything lol! its now back in
its proper position

On May 16, 6:32*am, Jan Andersson >
wrote:
> Cletus wrote:
>
> > I tried the "adjust all brakes tight method" thats one of many methods
> > i've tried, same results. *I've lenghthened out the pushrod as far as
> > it will go and no difference, *I've got the brakes adjusted up, same
> > method I've always used on all my other VW's
>
> > Dave, I'm fairly sure i have no leaks, *its not losing any fluid or is
> > there any dampness around the tunnel area under or inside the car.
>
> Regarding the pushrod: *With the pedal fully released, the pushrod MUST
> have free play before it contacts the master cylinder piston. You have
> no hope of ever getting the brakes to work right if there is no free play..
> The spec is 1mm at the master cylinder.
>
> After setting that, you may still need to bleed the master cylinder.
> There may be air trapped inside it that doesn't get pushed out into the
> brake lines. A pressure bleeder might be able to clear it, as it pushes
> fluid through in a continuous motion, as opposed to the pulsating nature
> of pedal pumping.
> You can try to crack the lines open at the master cylinder too and bleed
> from there.

My push rod is back to normal, Ilenghthened it a while ago to
desperately try anything, I will try to bleed the master again with
pressure, then do the "adjust all brakes tight method" and see how it
goes. I didn't make a "slit in hose with bolt in it" bleeder hose but
have one with a built in check valve that "shouldnt" let air back in
the system. My pressure bleeder is a Pepsi cap with hole in it with
1/4 inch air hose stuck in, that when screwed onto the resevoir pushes
fluid through. I keep pressure on until clear fluid comes through for
a good bit, then tighten bleeder screw under pressure(its a long hose,
can reach all wheels). i got these methods from the group here and I
thank you all for that. Man I can't believe I'm having this much
trouble on this simple job that in the past has been so easy!!! It
ain't like I'm a VW newbie, been drivin em daily since the mid 80's.

> goes. *I didn't make a "slit in hose with bolt in it" bleeder hose but
> have one with a built in check valve that "shouldnt" let air back in
> the system. *My pressure bleeder is a Pepsi cap with hole in it with

What this means to me is if your home bleeder DOES let air back in, or
fluid for that matter, when you push the pedal to force the air in the
lines forward, if the check valve does not close properly then when
you pull your foot off the pedal you're pulling the air bubble(s)
right back into the system again. Even if the tip of the hose is
immersed in brake fluid, if there is an air pocket close to the master
cylinder and that check valve is failed, all you are doing is pushing
the air fore and back..you could pump all day and never get it out of
the system.

Can you have a friend come over and do a "2 man bleed" and see if that
solves it?


Chris