Trail(er) trash

The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.

People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.

It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.

In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.

R. Lander

Nice agenda, but complete bull****. Sorry, but Id like to see any proof
of this other than just your unsubstantiated ramblings.
Maybe you should define what you think an enviromentalist is, because
if you are talking about your average hippie hiker, out on his bike or
walking through the trails they leave more impact than the average 4wd
trail rider. Powerbar wrappers, feces and "biodegradable" toilet paper
to name a few, oh and the ability to turn an area upside down to
accomodate their extended camping stays.

But since you are on a roll, lets explore your extremely flawed logic.
The "Conquer Nature" mentality is the reason you even have these spots
to enjoy. Mining companys, prospectors and railroad companys were out
here not to conquer nature but to make a living from it and make it a
livable space at the same time. This land is our land, not yours not
ours, but OUR land collectively, that means that what may be fun to
some is not fun to other but you tolerate or are at least respectful to
each other.

Since you have so much to say about this, I assume that you have
positioned yourself to do something about it though, right. You are out
every weekend cleaning up the trails and organizing groups to monitor
the land, right? Id be willing to be not. You know the history and
geography of the lands you visit and leave them in a better state than
when you arrived. Right?

Sorry, but you just really have no clue as to what you are talking
about here. There is plenty of wild frontier, unexplored canyons,
mountains and valleys. But you have to be motivated to get out there
and usually it is the offroader who has that drive and sense of
adventure. The average enviromentalist waits for an area to be opened
up, then wanders in and says it should be closed to the very same
people who found it. Great logic, if it wasnt for the explorers you
guys wouldnt have any areas to whine about.

So keep this kind of unsubstatiated BS on the SUWA and other
short-sighted groups sites, cause it holds no water here.

Sincerely,

Corey T. Shuman

www.goldrushexpeditions.com

R. Lander wrote:
> The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
> all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
> Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
> view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
> it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.
>
> People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
> sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
> Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
> to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
> It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.
>
> It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
> environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
> protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
> Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
> impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
> the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
> to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.
>
> In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
> more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
> places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
> trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.
>
> R. Lander

I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four wheeling." I run a
small farm. Lots of the wannbe four wheeling masters decide my fields are
just perfect for trying out their vehicles. They cruise around in my field
cutting tracks and distributing trash. I've even had then ride around in
unharvested soybean fields. I have stopped and asked them to leave only to
catch them again the next week. Now maybe thius only a small (very small)
percentage of four wwheelers, but they sure make me dislike the category as
a whole. Given that they have no regard for obviously private property, I
can only imagine how they treat "our" land.

Ed

Corey Shuman wrote:

> Nice agenda, but complete bull****. Sorry, but Id like to see any proof
> of this other than just your unsubstantiated ramblings.

The world's population grows by 75 million people each year and 3
million of them end up in the United States. That's why land for
recreational use is shrinking. I doubt you even had knowledge of those
basic figures. You look at a stand of trees in the distance and don't
see the houses creeping up behind it.

> Maybe you should define what you think an enviromentalist is, because
> if you are talking about your average hippie hiker, out on his bike or
> walking through the trails they leave more impact than the average 4wd
> trail rider. Powerbar wrappers, feces and "biodegradable" toilet paper
> to name a few, oh and the ability to turn an area upside down to
> accomodate their extended camping stays.

If such hikers exist (where exactly?), at least they aren't adding
noise and fumes to the mix. A narrow hiking trail with barely audible
footsteps is nothing compared to a huge slash with Jeeps and white
trash rumbling over it. I don't know any hikers who don't pack it out,
and the whole hiker mindset is much less likely to litter. I think
you're confusing land squatters with recreational hikers.

> But since you are on a roll, lets explore your extremely flawed logic.
> The "Conquer Nature" mentality is the reason you even have these spots
> to enjoy. Mining companys, prospectors and railroad companys were out
> here not to conquer nature but to make a living from it and make it a
> livable space at the same time. This land is our land, not yours not
> ours, but OUR land collectively, that means that what may be fun to
> some is not fun to other but you tolerate or are at least respectful to
> each other.

If the population ever stops growing there could be some balance
between the needs of people and the needs of other species and
wilderness. But the population keeps growing and taking over more land
for recreation, housing, mining, you name it. You treat nature as
limitless but you're flat out wrong. That's why all these conflicts
exist, for crying out loud. Look at satellite photos and topo maps.
Most land is chopped up into parcels and development is constantly
encroaching on the boundaries of nature. Most people are clueless about
the "ecological footprint" of modern Man, including his vehicles.

> Since you have so much to say about this, I assume that you have
> positioned yourself to do something about it though, right. You are out
> every weekend cleaning up the trails and organizing groups to monitor
> the land, right? Id be willing to be not. You know the history and
> geography of the lands you visit and leave them in a better state than
> when you arrived. Right?

Ah, here we go. You've finally admitted that there are problems, but
instead of seeing the bigger picture (too many people) you'd rather put
it all on me for not solving things singlehandedly. Believe me, I'm
doing plenty, and I'm not demanding more roads in roadless areas. I
understand that there are limits to growth but you refuse to see any.

> Sorry, but you just really have no clue as to what you are talking
> about here. There is plenty of wild frontier, unexplored canyons,
> mountains and valleys.

Define "plenty." How many acres per square mile should stay roadless?
The land is losing that battle EVERY DAY. The amount of wilderness in
the world shrinks every time a housing project goes up or a road is
built, and that happens 365 days a year (thousands of acres daily,
vanquishing the last frontiers). Environmentalism wouldn't be needed if
the land was as unscathed as your fantasy has it. You talk in vague
terms about frontiers you can't really define. Fifty acres at the end
of a dirt road could be called a "frontier" if one chose to. Admit that
you respect people and their "right" to relentless intrusion more than
you respect intact nature. Don't try to fake your motives.

> But you have to be motivated to get out there
> and usually it is the offroader who has that drive and sense of
> adventure. The average enviromentalist waits for an area to be opened
> up, then wanders in and says it should be closed to the very same
> people who found it. Great logic, if it wasnt for the explorers you
> guys wouldnt have any areas to whine about.

Are you claiming that only people in motorized vehicles can "get out
there" because they can go faster with greater ease? What an idiot. You
keep assuming there's real frontier left, and that it's somehow a bad
thing to just leave it alone. You need to learn more about what
population growth is doing to the landscape around the clock. It's
basically a slow war of attrition against wilderness. Growth conflicts
are making headlines every day all over the nation because the
population NEVER stops growing. That bothers me but you're just fine
with it, aren't you?

> So keep this kind of unsubstatiated BS on the SUWA and other
> short-sighted groups sites, cause it holds no water here.

It's substantiated by scientific and visual evidence that you are
willfully ignorant of. You probably voted for Bush, our great "Creation
Science" President. The truth is that overpopulation is carving up
wilderness and off-roading just adds to the problem. You can't treat a
grossly unbalanced situation as a mere case of Jeepers getting
harassed.

R. Lander

C. E. White wrote:

> I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four wheeling." I run a
> small farm. Lots of the wannbe four wheeling masters decide my fields are
> just perfect for trying out their vehicles. They cruise around in my field
> cutting tracks and distributing trash. I've even had then ride around in
> unharvested soybean fields. I have stopped and asked them to leave only to
> catch them again the next week. Now maybe thius only a small (very small)
> percentage of four wwheelers, but they sure make me dislike the category as
> a whole. Given that they have no regard for obviously private property, I
> can only imagine how they treat "our" land.

Thanks for telling it like is really is. "Tread lightly" is a big joke
for many of them.

R. Lander

It seems like you're saying that all of the land will eventually be
bulldozed, but until that happens, you want it 'preserved' for your personal
enjoyment.

"R. Lander" > wrote in message
oups.com...


> The truth is that overpopulation is carving up
> wilderness and off-roading just adds to the problem.

I replied to your Limbaugh-script comments using my original subject
header, not your altered one.

You forget that the Nazis were far-right punks with no respect for
"lower life forms." They shared traits with modern right-wingers who
think nature should yield at will beneath their Jeep tires. Don't
pretend you're operating on some higher moral plain with all your lies
about endless frontiers.

R. Lander

Corey Shuman wrote:
> Nice agenda, but complete bull****. Sorry, but Id like to see any proof
> of this other than just your unsubstantiated ramblings.
> Maybe you should define what you think an enviromentalist is, because
> if you are talking about your average hippie hiker, out on his bike or
> walking through the trails they leave more impact than the average 4wd
> trail rider. Powerbar wrappers, feces and "biodegradable" toilet paper
> to name a few, oh and the ability to turn an area upside down to
> accomodate their extended camping stays.
>
> But since you are on a roll, lets explore your extremely flawed logic.
> The "Conquer Nature" mentality is the reason you even have these spots
> to enjoy. Mining companys, prospectors and railroad companys were out
> here not to conquer nature but to make a living from it and make it a
> livable space at the same time. This land is our land, not yours not
> ours, but OUR land collectively, that means that what may be fun to
> some is not fun to other but you tolerate or are at least respectful to
> each other.
>
> Since you have so much to say about this, I assume that you have
> positioned yourself to do something about it though, right. You are out
> every weekend cleaning up the trails and organizing groups to monitor
> the land, right? Id be willing to be not. You know the history and
> geography of the lands you visit and leave them in a better state than
> when you arrived. Right?
>
> Sorry, but you just really have no clue as to what you are talking
> about here. There is plenty of wild frontier, unexplored canyons,
> mountains and valleys. But you have to be motivated to get out there
> and usually it is the offroader who has that drive and sense of
> adventure. The average enviromentalist waits for an area to be opened
> up, then wanders in and says it should be closed to the very same
> people who found it. Great logic, if it wasnt for the explorers you
> guys wouldnt have any areas to whine about.
>
> So keep this kind of unsubstatiated BS on the SUWA and other
> short-sighted groups sites, cause it holds no water here.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Corey T. Shuman
>
> www.goldrushexpeditions.com
>
> R. Lander wrote:
> > The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
> > all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
> > Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
> > view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
> > it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.
> >
> > People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
> > sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
> > Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
> > to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
> > It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.
> >
> > It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
> > environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
> > protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
> > Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
> > impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
> > the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
> > to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.
> >
> > In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
> > more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
> > places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
> > trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.
> >
> > R. Lander

"C. E. White" > wrote in message
news:447f1d17@kcnews01...
> I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four wheeling."

According to your statement, you "have a lot of dislike" for me, yet you've
never met me. You base this opinion on your experience with trespassers.

Personally I find this story a bit far fetched.

Not about an occasional yabbo driving through 'your fields' but that the
same people do it week after week after week and you do nothing about it
other than politely ask them to leave.

I grew up in a village surrounded by family farms and I never heard on any
that would tolerate this. At the very least the damage would be compensated
and most likely the sheriff would not look kindly upon this.

Methinks you are a troll or eco-weenie or have some other mental
infirmary...... that or you are just a lying sack of dog doo...


"R. Lander" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> C. E. White wrote:
>
>> I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four wheeling." I run a
>> small farm. Lots of the wannbe four wheeling masters decide my fields are
>> just perfect for trying out their vehicles. They cruise around in my
>> field
>> cutting tracks and distributing trash. I've even had then ride around in
>> unharvested soybean fields. I have stopped and asked them to leave only
>> to
>> catch them again the next week. Now maybe thius only a small (very small)
>> percentage of four wwheelers, but they sure make me dislike the category
>> as
>> a whole. Given that they have no regard for obviously private property, I
>> can only imagine how they treat "our" land.
>
> Thanks for telling it like is really is. "Tread lightly" is a big joke
> for many of them.
>
> R. Lander
>

It was on Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:28:17 -0700, another Dirty Dusty Delta day, when R. Lander coughed up:

> The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
> all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
> Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
> view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
> it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.
>
> People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
> sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
> Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
> to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
> It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.
>
> It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
> environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
> protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
> Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
> impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
> the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
> to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.
>
> In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
> more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
> places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
> trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.
>
> R. Lander

Thanks for your excellent post; sadly, few here are going to accept it,
regardless, and will argue facts with attitude and opinion.

Please keep it up until the flames overcome you.

If just /one/ person learns from your factual statements, you've succeeded.


SW
resident persona non grata
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--
There is nothing so agonizing to the fine skin of vanity as the application
of a rough truth.

-Edward Bulwer-Lytton, writer (1803-1873)