Tire life

Hi,

I need advice about assessing tire quality from the experts/ gurus in
this forum.

With regards to tire composition and characteristics, what are the
important things I need to look out for when assessing quality of an
unbranded tire. Assuming that the tires are used in the recommended way
( such as not over loading or over speeding), I have heard that there
are several characteristics of tires which make them last longer, and I
am hoping you can shed some light on the following:

Thread depth - Does the tire last longer if it has a deeper thread?

Ply Rating - Is there any disadvantage to having a high ply rating,
and is there any specific correlation between the number of plys and
the weight. (for example each ply should add x kgs to the weight.)?

Quality of rubber - Is there variation in quality of rubber that can
make a tire last longer. Do they mix rubber with anything to increase
durability?

Tire patterns - what are the advantages and disadvantages of using a
rib/lug/mix designs

Weight of the tire - If it is a heavy tire would it last longer
assuming that there is more rubber used.

Sidewall - what is the difference between good quality and bad
quality sidewall?

The weather condition here is very hot, dry and sandy most of the year
with 4 months of moderate rain. So even the well built roads tend to be
very sandy which I assume increases tire friction. Some of the areas I
travel through are very underdeveloped with a lot of pot holes on the
roads. I have heard that nylon/x-ply/bias tires are better then radials
for uneven road surfaces and radials are better for good road
conditions, is this true?

Thank you for your help,
James

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, wrote:

> With regards to tire composition and characteristics, what are the
> important things I need to look out for when assessing quality of an
> unbranded tire.

Unbranded tires are unbranded because the company who made them does not
wish their reputation to be harmed by being associated with that
particular tire, or because that particular tire was made in a backalley
shop in China that was told by an unscrupulous Western importer "Make them
black and round". The "quality" of an unbranded tire is...there's no such
thing.

Tire sales are always going on. You don't have to spend a fortune. Buying
****ty tires is playing with lives (your own and others on the road).

Hi Daniel,

Sorry when I said unbranded I ment a brand that is not yet famous. I
hope you understand. I know that it could be dangerous trying something
new, this is why I am trying to find out what I should know about new
brands tires to minimise the risk. Apart from the making sure they have
E mark, Dot and ISO certified.

Thanks,
James

Daniel J. Stern wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, wrote:
>
> > With regards to tire composition and characteristics, what are the
> > important things I need to look out for when assessing quality of an
> > unbranded tire.
>
> Unbranded tires are unbranded because the company who made them does not
> wish their reputation to be harmed by being associated with that
> particular tire, or because that particular tire was made in a backalley
> shop in China that was told by an unscrupulous Western importer "Make them
> black and round". The "quality" of an unbranded tire is...there's no such
> thing.
>
> Tire sales are always going on. You don't have to spend a fortune. Buying
> ****ty tires is playing with lives (your own and others on the road).

Be more specific about the tire brand.

Richard.

I have a feeling this is going to be a long thread with opinions all
over the map, mine included. And Daniel Stern may have it right - you
could be a troll motivated to generate a predictably long discussion for
whatever reason.

I am an engineer, but not with experience or technical competency in
tires - only what I have picked up as a consumer for 35+ years of
driving and DIY'ing who happens, for good or bad, to have an engineer's
brain (some might say that I had better give it back, or maybe even that
I'm due a refund).

Here are my opinions, probably none of which I can prove:
Use the UTQG standards (see
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=48) ratings
that are by law printed on at least one side of every ti Treadwear,
Traction, Temperature.

Having worked in industry in engineering and management in competitive
situations, I've got to believe that there's a quite a bit of stretching
of the specs. by the manufacturers, and there's probably very little if
any meaningful enforcement for truth in specifications. Lacking any
other information to the contrary, I have to simplify things and assume
that they all cheat the same amount, so that would mean the specs. are a
good indicator for comparison shopping (and I asssume the tests to
determine the ratings are meaningful, which they probably are - wouldn't
be surprised if someone wants to argue with that, but that's a starting
point).

No reason these days to go anything less than 400 on treadwear rating.
There are some darn good affordable tires out there with 600 to 650 ratings.

Most tires (probably all I have seen) have an A traction rating - so
apparently that's very do-able even for a lower end tire (maybe the
spec. ranges are two broad).

Most temp. ratings are A or B. Don't go lower than B.

My personal philosophy: Elminate so-called "hi-performance" tires from
your search. Unless your *only* criteria for selection is road grip, you
will get very low bang for the buck - and road grip is not going to be
*that* much better regardless. "Hi-performance" tires, as a category,
have the following characeristics:
(1) Much more expensive unless you settle for even more compromises in
the design and quality than reasonable.
(2) They have poor tread life (way lower than a good, reasonably priced
touring tire).
(3) They have a tendency to have larger tread features (I forget what
you call the individual islands of rubber that make up the tread
pattern), which tend to cause funky wear patterns that become very noisy
starting near the middle of their short tread life.
(4) As a bonus to all the other issues, short of catastrophic failure or
your brother-in-law owning the tire store, you will never get a warranty
adjustment on a "hi-performance" tire even if you can document timely
alignments, maintenance, etc. - they don't care - the manufacturer
assumes that purchasers of "hi-performance" tires, by their very nature,
abuse their tires - burden of proof is on the consumer - and nothing is
provable - so forget it.

Also - buy your tires from the same place you get them installed,
balanced, and rotated and that does your alignments. And get printouts
of your alignments. The fewer parties that are involved, the less
finger pointing to avoid honoring a warranty claim if a problem should
occur (i.e., installer refers you to seller, seller refers you to
manufacturer, manufacturer refers you to the alignment shop, ad
infinitum - you get the picture.

When price shopping apples-to-apples, be sure to add up *all* costs and
benefits of buying mail order and local shop.

**Mail order:
Add in cost of shipping and paying a local shop for mounting and
balancing. Problems 10,000 miles down the road? No help from them.

**Local shop:
Mounting and initial balancing included in price - no shipping cost
added. Many/most shops give free balancing and rotation for the life of
the tires purchased there. Also see above
buying/installing/rotating/alignments all being single source (things go
a *lot* smoother if problems).

Can I assume you're not going to be driving well over 100 mph? Good.
Then stick with T or H rated tires (good for extended driving up to 118
mph). To go to higher speed ratings, other things are compromised as
evidenced that many tires are available in T/H speed rating with a given
treadwear rating or guarantee whereas the same tire (same exact model of
tire) in a V speed rating will have a significantly lower treadwear
rating or guarantee.

Most tread depths are 10 to 12 mm. If you have the treadwear rating -
it doesn't matter. Who cares what the intial depth is if it has
whatever treadwear rating. The only difference it could make is at
beginnng of tire life for resistnace to hydroplaning, but there are much
greater determinants of that in the other aspects of the tread design.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Bill Putney wrote:

> Having worked in industry in engineering and management in competitive
> situations, I've got to believe that there's a quite a bit of stretching
> of the specs. by the manufacturers, and there's probably very little if
> any meaningful enforcement for truth in specifications.

My father said that the radials he bought in the 1970s with treadwear
ratings of about 150 lasted about 35,000-40,000 miles, but today's
tires rated for 400 don't seem to last any longer. Apparently the
federal government stopped checking the test results around the time
Reagan became President.

larry moe 'n curly wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>
>
>>Having worked in industry in engineering and management in competitive
>>situations, I've got to believe that there's a quite a bit of stretching
>>of the specs. by the manufacturers, and there's probably very little if
>>any meaningful enforcement for truth in specifications.
>
>
> My father said that the radials he bought in the 1970s with treadwear
> ratings of about 150 lasted about 35,000-40,000 miles, but today's
> tires rated for 400 don't seem to last any longer. Apparently the
> federal government stopped checking the test results around the time
> Reagan became President.
>


To many varible here as the wear rating does not factor in car weight,
alignment and vehical usage. A heavier vehical will eat the tires
quicker than a lighter one will amd FWD cars will wear front tires
quicker if you do not rotate tham from time to time. (which you should
do RWD or FWD.

--

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

TheSnoMan wrote:

> > My father said that the radials he bought in the 1970s with treadwear
> > ratings of about 150 lasted about 35,000-40,000 miles, but today's
> > tires rated for 400 don't seem to last any longer. Apparently the
> > federal government stopped checking the test results around the time
> > Reagan became President.

> To many varible here as the wear rating does not factor in car weight,
> alignment and vehical usage. A heavier vehical will eat the tires
> quicker than a lighter one will amd FWD cars will wear front tires
> quicker if you do not rotate tham from time to time. (which you should
> do RWD or FWD.

The car with the old radials on it was heavier and RWD, and all the
tires in question wore down very evenly. I think that tire
manufacturers have simply been exaggerating the treadwear numbers.

>Thread depth - Does the tire last longer if it has a deeper thread?

Only if you purchase the deep weave option. What you want is a plush or
high pile Thread for winter driving or bumpy roads. The tire won't
really last any longer, but it will seem like it because you have to
vacuum it every 2 or 3 days.

>Quality of rubber - Is there variation in quality of rubber that can
>make a tire last longer. Do they mix rubber with anything to increase
>durability?

Mummy powder is sometime used, although others prefer a
titanium-concrete alloy, but it is a bit loud at highway speed.
You might want to try to seek out a nice combination of teflon and
super glue. The super glue really makes it hold the highway, while the
teflon makes it easy to clean.

>Sidewall - what is the difference between good quality and bad
>quality sidewall?

a fair question and an easy one. a good quality sidewall makes you
feel like god's right hand man. Your living on top and all's right with
the world. Your A number one with a bullet on the charts.
With a bad quality sidewall you just get a headache and go to sleep.

>Tire patterns - what are the advantages and disadvantages of using a
>rib/lug/mix designs ?

Experts are mixed on this, but most feel it is primarily to confuse
bugs thereby making it easier to run them over and squash them. Some
feel it has something to do with traction and hydroplaning and such,
there is always a mad fringe on any issue, pay no attention and pick
what looks right to you.

I hope this has been helpful in your purchasing decisions. Mostly look
for tires that are round and about the right size to fit on your
wheels, also most people prefer black as a color choice though some
feel red is making a comeback. Be sure the dealer or agent where you
purchase your tires will provide free air for the life of the tires.
Make a point of this BEFORE you purchase! You may want to make sure
your spare will feel comfortable in the trunk by sleeping curled up in
the tire well for a few days just to see what it is like.

Just some tips.........

ISO 9000? If so, all it means is that the manufacturer has (should have)
procedure in place to ensure reproducibility at whatever quality level the
manufacturer has decided.

I.e. once good. always good or once nasty, always nasty.

I have to say it, I can't understand why people always try to save that bit
of money and increase their risk (even if funds are short). Plus, a cheap
tyre may wear out quicker.

I certainly can't afford to buy cheap.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
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