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#21
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Battery cable came off!
"AZ Nomad" > wrote in message ... > On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:40:44 -0700, jrk > wrote: > > > >>"Matt Ion" > wrote in message >>news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no... >>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote: >>> >>>> Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. >>> >>> Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. Batteries >>> /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is not storing >>> energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the checmical reaction. > >>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter? > >>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you >>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of nothing? > > Capacitors are electrostatic while batteries are electrochemical. > A capacitor capable of storing the energy within a car battery and power > capability needed to start a car would be the size of a double long semi. True, but nobody is suggesting that you start your car with a capacitor. At issue was the batteries ability to absorb spikes from the alternator. Given that, batteries do have capacitance. I don't know how much it should be to be effective though, but its there. |
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#22
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Battery cable came off!
I feel like Kerry... "What I meant to say is, 'Uh, the battery is
nothing more than THE EQUIVALENT of a large capacitor.'" I think that it's time for a belt of Pinch! JT Jim Yanik wrote: > > Matt Ion > wrote in > news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no: > > > Grumpy AuContraire wrote: > > > >> Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. > > > > Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. > > Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is > > not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the > > checmical reaction. > > > > The plates of a battery have capacitance. > They are charged by the chemical reaction. > > -- > Jim Yanik > jyanik > at > kua.net |
#23
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Battery cable came off!
Jim Yanik wrote: > Matt Ion > wrote in > news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no: > > > Grumpy AuContraire wrote: > > > >> Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. > > > > Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. > > Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is > > not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the > > checmical reaction. > > > > The plates of a battery have capacitance. > They are charged by the chemical reaction. A car battery has many farads of capacitance. In other words, it's a very stout capacitor.. MK |
#24
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Battery cable came off!
Jim Yanik wrote: > Matt Ion > wrote in > news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no: > > > Grumpy AuContraire wrote: > > > >> Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. > > > > Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. > > Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is > > not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the > > checmical reaction. > > > > The plates of a battery have capacitance. > They are charged by the chemical reaction. A car battery has many farads of capacitance. In other words, it's a very stout capacitor.. MK |
#25
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Battery cable came off!
jrk wrote:
> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message > news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no... > >>Grumpy AuContraire wrote: >> >> >>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. >> >>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. Batteries >>/create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is not storing >>energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the checmical reaction. > > > Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter? Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough to consider them functional "capacitors" though. > Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you > suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of nothing? Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy. That's generated out of a chemical reaction. |
#26
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Battery cable came off!
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#27
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Battery cable came off!
Tegger wrote:
> Matt Ion > wrote in > news:P8fgh.485006$R63.220768@pd7urf1no: > > >>Grumpy AuContraire wrote: >> >>>Matt Ion wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. >>>> >>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. >>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is >>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the >>>>checmical reaction. >>> >>> >>> >>>Technically yes, but both smooth voltage.. >> >>Batteries do, to a degree. That's not what they're designed for >>though. >> > > > > But it's one of the things they're *used* for. > > Do you want to email Bill Darden and tell him he's wrong? I didn't say he was wrong. |
#28
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Battery cable came off!
Matt Ion > wrote in
news:lQygh.485570$5R2.202156@pd7urf3no: > jrk wrote: >> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message >> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no... >> >>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. >>> >>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. >>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is >>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the >>>checmical reaction. >> >> >> Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter? > > Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough > to consider them functional "capacitors" though. I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for a capacitor,by DESIGN. Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the battery model definitely has capacitance. Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a capacitor. > >> Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you >> suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of >> nothing? > > Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy. yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be? > That's generated > out of a chemical reaction. > differing from electric charges generated by friction;static electricity. They both are ELECTRIC charges,though.Both are electric current,too. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
#29
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Battery cable came off!
Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. >>>> >>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. >>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is >>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the >>>>checmical reaction. >>> >>> >>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter? >> >>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough >>to consider them functional "capacitors" though. > > > I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for > a capacitor,by DESIGN. Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance are needed. Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced traces on the circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network cables, the inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into account. That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most cases the inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than the capacitance in a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real use. > Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the > battery model definitely has capacitance. > Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a > capacitor. Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But that's true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old carbon-based flashlight batteries. >>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you >>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of >>>nothing? >> >>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy. > > > yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be? They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the electrical (kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical reaction; the electrical energy is converted to chemical (potential) energy. When not charging, the inverse chemical reaction converts chemical energy back to electrical energy. In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity (as opposed to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's merely converting one form of energy to another. |
#30
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Battery cable came off!
Matt Ion > wrote in
news:AxBgh.485714$5R2.255447@pd7urf3no: > Jim Yanik wrote: > >>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor. >>>>> >>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy. >>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery >>>>>is not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the >>>>>checmical reaction. >>>> >>>> >>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter? >>> >>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not >>>enough to consider them functional "capacitors" though. >> >> >> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic >> circuit for a capacitor,by DESIGN. > > Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance > are needed. > Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced > traces on the > circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network > cables, the inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into > account. > > That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most > cases the inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than > the capacitance in a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real > use. > >> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided >> design,the battery model definitely has capacitance. >> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a >> capacitor. > > Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But > that's true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old > carbon-based flashlight batteries. > >>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you >>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of >>>>nothing? >>> >>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy. >> >> >> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be? > > They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the > electrical (kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical > reaction; the electrical energy is converted to chemical (potential) > energy. When not charging, the inverse chemical reaction converts > chemical energy back to electrical energy. > > In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity > (as opposed to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's > merely converting one form of energy to another. > When you DRAW current from a battery,how does the chemistry knows to start converting chemicals to electric current? Where does that initial current come from? Simple,the *charge on the plates* decreases and the chemical reaction adds more electrons to fill the depletion of the plates charge. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
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