2004 Accord coupe: Proper charging voltage

"jim beam" > wrote in message t...
>> If there is a zinc anode, it might have some value but...
>>
>>
> no. like tegger says, you need to be immersed in water for that to work
> - there needs to be continuous electrolyte between the two parts, the
> one being protected and the one being sacrificed.

The system design to protect iron/steel with sacrificial zinc
does not need electricity from car battery to work...

So the gizmo I have in my honda would work on some different principle.

Pszemol wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>>> If there is a zinc anode, it might have some value but...
>>>
>>>
>> no. like tegger says, you need to be immersed in water for that to
>> work - there needs to be continuous electrolyte between the two parts,
>> the one being protected and the one being sacrificed.
>
> The system design to protect iron/steel with sacrificial zinc does not
> need electricity from car battery to work...

that's correct - the zinc corrodes preferentially to steel. and the
process still needs electrolyte immersion.

>
> So the gizmo I have in my honda would work on some different principle.

yeah. it extracts the electrons from the dollar bills in your wallet
and having thus determined their coordinates, the gizmo's vendor can
then teleport those bills, your credit card details and your wife's cell
phone number into their own private possession without your knowledge.
it does damn-all for rust protection on your car.

"jim beam" > wrote in message t...
>> The system design to protect iron/steel with sacrificial zinc does not
>> need electricity from car battery to work...
>
> that's correct - the zinc corrodes preferentially to steel. and the
> process still needs electrolyte immersion.

Yes, it needs electrolyte, but it is everywhere...
Rain, road puddle with water, melting snow with salt, etc.

Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel applications
where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed.
Compare wire fence, steel tube, angle iron or I-beams.

Similar situation i with tin-plating. It provides sacrificial protection
for copper, nickel and other non-ferrous metals, but not for steel.

Product does not need to be submersed in water for this principle
to work - if there is enough moisture in the air to cause rust than
sacrificial zinc layer should work just fine...

BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel?

>> So the gizmo I have in my honda would work on some different principle.
>
> yeah. it extracts the electrons from the dollar bills in your wallet
> and having thus determined their coordinates, the gizmo's vendor can
> then teleport those bills, your credit card details and your wife's cell
> phone number into their own private possession without your knowledge.
> it does damn-all for rust protection on your car.

Well, I got this car used with gizmo installed already, so I did
not spend a penny on it.

"Pszemol" > wrote in
:


>
> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel?



I think so. But zinc eventually "wears out" when its anodic protection is
used up.

Rust is a process that involves electrons flowing out of iron (in the
steel). The electronic rust-proofing systems use that as their basis for
justification. Somehow, causing elelctron flow to occur in the electrolyte
is supposed to interfere with electron flow out of the iron.

I'm no chemist, but I can't see how electronic rust-proofing could possibly
work. The car's body already has lots of electrons flowing through it. It's
the ground for the car's 12V electrical system, remember?

A wire that carries electricity will rust just the same as one that does
not carry electricity, provided that wire is made of a corrodable substance
(like iron or copper). Electrons in the electrolyte do not protect metal
from corrosion.

The only way to prevent corrosion is to prevent oxygen and steel from
meeting in the first place. That means zinc primer with paint, or chemical-
based rustproofing.



>
> Well, I got this car used with gizmo installed already, so I did
> not spend a penny on it.
>



I don't think it will /hurt/ at all, it just won't /help/. The hurt may
eventually come in the form of electrical trouble at the aftermarket
splices into the factory wiring. But that's true of any aftermarket device.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Pszemol wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>>> The system design to protect iron/steel with sacrificial zinc does
>>> not need electricity from car battery to work...
>>
>> that's correct - the zinc corrodes preferentially to steel. and the
>> process still needs electrolyte immersion.
>
> Yes, it needs electrolyte, but it is everywhere...
> Rain, road puddle with water, melting snow with salt, etc.

but it needs to form a continuous electrical connection so that all
regions have the same electrode potential all the time. rain splashes
are not continuous immersion and a sacrificial anode doesn't work.
don't take my word for it - try it yourself.


>
> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel applications
> where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed.
> Compare wire fence, steel tube, angle iron or I-beams.
> Similar situation i with tin-plating. It provides sacrificial protection
> for copper, nickel and other non-ferrous metals, but not for steel.
>
> Product does not need to be submersed in water for this principle
> to work - if there is enough moisture in the air to cause rust than
> sacrificial zinc layer should work just fine...

but that's a zinc layer [galvanizing or sherardizing] - different
principle! a sacrificial anode will protect naked steel - sherardizing
or galvanizing are simply plating processes.


>
> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel?

i believe parts of it use sherardized steel, yes.


>
>>> So the gizmo I have in my honda would work on some different principle.
>>
>> yeah. it extracts the electrons from the dollar bills in your wallet
>> and having thus determined their coordinates, the gizmo's vendor can
>> then teleport those bills, your credit card details and your wife's
>> cell phone number into their own private possession without your
>> knowledge. it does damn-all for rust protection on your car.
>
> Well, I got this car used with gizmo installed already, so I did
> not spend a penny on it.

good luck.

Tegger wrote:
> "Pszemol" > wrote in
> :
>
>
>> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel?
>
>
>
> I think so. But zinc eventually "wears out" when its anodic protection is
> used up.
>
> Rust is a process that involves electrons flowing out of iron (in the
> steel). The electronic rust-proofing systems use that as their basis for
> justification. Somehow, causing elelctron flow to occur in the electrolyte
> is supposed to interfere with electron flow out of the iron.
>
> I'm no chemist, but I can't see how electronic rust-proofing could possibly
> work. The car's body already has lots of electrons flowing through it. It's
> the ground for the car's 12V electrical system, remember?

that would be correct, but in the same way as a sacrificial anode, it
requires full continuous electrical immersion int he electrolyte to
work. patch wetting doesn't work as local electrode potential cells
establish themselves and corrosion marches away as normal.


>
> A wire that carries electricity will rust just the same as one that does
> not carry electricity, provided that wire is made of a corrodable substance
> (like iron or copper). Electrons in the electrolyte do not protect metal
> from corrosion.
>
> The only way to prevent corrosion is to prevent oxygen and steel from
> meeting in the first place. That means zinc primer with paint, or chemical-
> based rustproofing.
>
>
>
>> Well, I got this car used with gizmo installed already, so I did
>> not spend a penny on it.
>>
>
>
>
> I don't think it will /hurt/ at all, it just won't /help/. The hurt may
> eventually come in the form of electrical trouble at the aftermarket
> splices into the factory wiring. But that's true of any aftermarket device.
>
>
>

"Tegger" > wrote in message ...
>> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel?
>
> I think so.

Is there any place we could check it to know for sure?

> But zinc eventually "wears out" when its anodic protection is
> used up.

Understood. Nothing will last forever.
We are comparing here steel protected only with paint
to the steel protected with sacrificial layer of zinc
and the paint. The second will last significantly longer.
And no electronic gizmo is needed for this purpose.

> Rust is a process that involves electrons flowing out of iron (in the
> steel). The electronic rust-proofing systems use that as their basis for
> justification. Somehow, causing elelctron flow to occur in the electrolyte
> is supposed to interfere with electron flow out of the iron.
>
> I'm no chemist, but I can't see how electronic rust-proofing could possibly
> work. The car's body already has lots of electrons flowing through it. It's
> the ground for the car's 12V electrical system, remember?
>
> A wire that carries electricity will rust just the same as one that does
> not carry electricity, provided that wire is made of a corrodable substance
> (like iron or copper). Electrons in the electrolyte do not protect metal
> from corrosion.

Corrosion happens on the borders of two metals, including mixtures
of metals (like steel). I am talking about micro borders in crystal
structure of the metal. No metal is pure and will have mixture of
different metalc causing forming micro-cells for electricity to flow.

> The only way to prevent corrosion is to prevent oxygen and steel from
> meeting in the first place. That means zinc primer with paint, or chemical-
> based rustproofing.

If a car panels are mad of galvanized steel - paint works as
a rust/oxidation protection of the zinc layer... Rust will
act on the zinc layer first, if paint layer is comprimised.
Zinc layer will then prevent corrosion of the steel with
the sacrificial anode principle. Rain/snow will connect
the steel-zinc contact and will cause zinc to rust first.

"jim beam" > wrote in message news
>> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel applications
>> where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed.
>> Compare wire fence, steel tube, angle iron or I-beams.
>> Similar situation i with tin-plating. It provides sacrificial protection
>> for copper, nickel and other non-ferrous metals, but not for steel.
>>
>> Product does not need to be submersed in water for this principle
>> to work - if there is enough moisture in the air to cause rust than
>> sacrificial zinc layer should work just fine...
>
> but that's a zinc layer [galvanizing or sherardizing] - different
> principle! a sacrificial anode will protect naked steel - sherardizing
> or galvanizing are simply plating processes.

Same principle, different implementation of the principle.
When it is not practical to use galvanized steel you can
use sacrificial anode made with chunk of zinc - when this
is used up you can replace anode and continue protection.
With products made of the galvanized steel, the principle
is the same, there are just practical differences, like
you cannot "replace" sacrificial anode because it is
under the paint, covering your whole care for example.
Both work the same way.

>> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel?
>
> i believe parts of it use sherardized steel, yes.

Parts? Not all panels?

"jim beam" > wrote in message news
> that would be correct, but in the same way as a sacrificial anode, it
> requires full continuous electrical immersion int he electrolyte to
> work. patch wetting doesn't work as local electrode potential cells
> establish themselves and corrosion marches away as normal.

Continous immersion is required only in case of situation
you have in a ocean boat. Electrolitic current flow has to
take place between remove iron component and the single
sacrificial zinc anode. Without electrolitic link proces stops.

With galvanized steel you have to think in a micro-scale.
Each spot with chipped paint cover lets the oxygen and
water into the contact with bare metal. If steel would not
be exposed and zinc layer is 100% sealed, only zinc will
oxidize and we have no sacrificial anode principle in
working here...
Situation in real life is different - no layer is 100% seal.
There will be always pores in zinc layer, exposing steel.
So, the micro-hole in the paint and zinc layer will be exposed
to air (oxygen) and water (not pure water, rather electrolite).
And on the micro-scale zinc layer will start to sacrifice
using the same principle as with the boat and remote anode.

Tegger wrote:
> "Pszemol" > wrote in
> :
>
>
>
>>BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel?
>
>
>
>
> I think so. But zinc eventually "wears out" when its anodic protection is
> used up.
>
> Rust is a process that involves electrons flowing out of iron (in the
> steel). The electronic rust-proofing systems use that as their basis for
> justification. Somehow, causing elelctron flow to occur in the electrolyte
> is supposed to interfere with electron flow out of the iron.
>
> I'm no chemist, but I can't see how electronic rust-proofing could possibly
> work. The car's body already has lots of electrons flowing through it. It's
> the ground for the car's 12V electrical system, remember?
>
> A wire that carries electricity will rust just the same as one that does
> not carry electricity, provided that wire is made of a corrodable substance
> (like iron or copper). Electrons in the electrolyte do not protect metal
> from corrosion.
>
> The only way to prevent corrosion is to prevent oxygen and steel from
> meeting in the first place. That means zinc primer with paint, or chemical-
> based rustproofing.
>
>


This is great territory to get in a ****ing contest.

Suffice to say that "electrolyte" has different values depending on
environment. Emersed simply brings about faster reaction, (similar to
plating etc.), as opposed to atmospheric which simply allows oxidation,
(rust to most of us).

The value of no charged zinc based components, (pot metal is a prime
example), are the first to deteriorate. And, that deterioration is
partially blocked by chrome plating but once it begins to blister,
(pit), the show's over.

Just a note... Back in the "old" days most cars had positive grounds
which also minimizes oxidation since electron flow is reversed. I
sometimes wonder why they ever change to negative ground especially in
the the rust belt...

JT