Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 19:08:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> No experience with aftermarket flywheels or O-Reillys. Sachs or LUK
> should bothbe good. Both are OEM manufacturers for many european
> makers.
>
> The flywheel looks bad enough that for the difference between $60 to
> machine and $95 for a new LUK there shouldn't be any question.

Thanks Clare,

You have, by far, the most experience here and I have, by far, the least,
hence I appreciate the advice.

I was worried about getting the flywheel off, but it came out easily once I
put a 1/2-inch-socket breaker bar to the ten 14-mm 12-point bolts:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1179779flywheel07.jpg>

I had to wait all day for the new flywheel to arrive, which it did late in
the day. So I'm sorry for the lousy before-and-after picture below but it
was taken at night when I got home.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2793357flywheel05.jpg>

Looking at the flywheel, I can't visually see or feel anything that is any
lesser quality, where the box for the new flywheel has OE all over it, and
inside stickers saying it meets OEM specs.

I was surprised the new flywheel is almost the same thickness as the
original, the difference being almost imperceptible ... which I can measure
tomorrow, but you can barely feel it.

I had expected the new flywheel to be a lot thicker than the old one since
I know the original has about 180K miles on it and it was supposedly turned
once at somewhere around 80K miles sometime around 2005.

Going to the dealer for the rear oil seal was an experience in futility.

On 07/24/2018 11:47 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> I didn't know to pick up the primer. I'll have to go back tomorrow to get
> that primer (do you think carb cleaner or acetone will work?)

I've got a can a primer around here someplace but I seldom use it. YMMV.
It helps if the threads are very sloppy or it's cold and you want to
speed up the setting.

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
>> sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
>> out, and carefully drive it in.
>
> Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
> I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
> really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.
>
> This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
> <https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg>
>
> It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
> <https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003>
>
> Even though it's in the back of the engine:
> <https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html>
>
> It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
> <https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012>
>
> The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
> had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
> seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
> this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
> phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
> different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
> about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
> for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).
>
> They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg>
>
> Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).
>
> I'd really like to replace that seal even though it isn't leaking, because
> if it does ever leak, you have to remove the transmission to get to it.
>
> I'll try another dealer tomorrow (there are two within 30 miles of me).
>
>> and DEFINITELY replace that pilot bearing!!!!!!!
>
> Yup. I'm taking all your advice. The kit comes with a pilot bearing:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg>
>
>> You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
>> most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
>> like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -
>
> The amazing thing is that I went to two parts stores today, both of which
> rent out the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer (separately), where the
> amazing thing is that the bearing pullers are all TOO BIG to fit inside
> this pilot bearing!
>
> The people at both stores tried to fit it inside the new bearing, which,
> luckily, I had in my pocket, where they're too fat even though you can
> slide the teeth forward one at a time.
>
> It's pretty amazing since this looks like a pretty standard engine and so
> it has a pretty standard pilot bearing, right? The pilot bearing is a "6201
> RS" which is a very common bearing for lots of shafts.
>
> The tool is two pieces, as you noted.
> 1. A slide hammer that screws into the back end of the tool
> 2. The tool itself, which has both sliding and expanding jaws
>
> I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
> might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
> small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.
>

That can work great. But the biggest problem is finding a drift or bar
stock that EXACTLY fits the pilot bearing ... especially if the latter
is badly worn and possibly distorted. It is definitely worth a try
though, if you can't find a tool that fits.

It is hell to have to pull a damn engine to get the crankshaft out for
some piddly problem. Time and $$$. Sometimes though, it just works out
that way, so we just have to keep pulling wrenches and grin and bear it

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 24 Jul 2018 19:08:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> No experience with aftermarket flywheels or O-Reillys. Sachs or LUK
>> should bothbe good. Both are OEM manufacturers for many european
>> makers.
>>
>> The flywheel looks bad enough that for the difference between $60 to
>> machine and $95 for a new LUK there shouldn't be any question.
>
> Thanks Clare,
>
> You have, by far, the most experience here and I have, by far, the least,
> hence I appreciate the advice.
>
> I was worried about getting the flywheel off, but it came out easily once I
> put a 1/2-inch-socket breaker bar to the ten 14-mm 12-point bolts:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1179779flywheel07.jpg>
>
> I had to wait all day for the new flywheel to arrive, which it did late in
> the day. So I'm sorry for the lousy before-and-after picture below but it
> was taken at night when I got home.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2793357flywheel05.jpg>
>
> Looking at the flywheel, I can't visually see or feel anything that is any
> lesser quality, where the box for the new flywheel has OE all over it, and
> inside stickers saying it meets OEM specs.
>
> I was surprised the new flywheel is almost the same thickness as the
> original, the difference being almost imperceptible ... which I can measure
> tomorrow, but you can barely feel it.
>
> I had expected the new flywheel to be a lot thicker than the old one since
> I know the original has about 180K miles on it and it was supposedly turned
> once at somewhere around 80K miles sometime around 2005.
>

Clutches have gotten much better in the last few decades. Some of the
old cars from the 40's and 50's had to have the clutch routinely
serviced/replaced about every 50K miles. The durn brakes had to be
adjusted every few thousand miles, and tuneups with new points.

I drove a small 1990 ford FWD car for 250,000 miles and never replaced
the clutch, though lots of other things needed minor repairs. But I
never abused the clutch ... There were no teenage drivers.

The point is to not overdo this. The car may up and die from some
unrelated cause after you have gone the full 9 yards and spent a small
fortune.

If it wasn't Elvis Presley's car, or a priceless antique, your
investment is wiped out when it dies.

Good luck, and hoping you fix that buggy soon!

On 25 Jul 2018 13:19:54 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

> That can work great. But the biggest problem is finding a drift or bar
> stock that EXACTLY fits the pilot bearing ... especially if the latter
> is badly worn and possibly distorted. It is definitely worth a try
> though, if you can't find a tool that fits.

Thanks to the suggestions from Terry & Clare and others, the pilot bearing
is out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg>

I first tried the grease gun with an M12x1.25 bolt but my gun is old (it's
from the 1940's AFAIK) and it wasn't working well and the grease was too
thin (but I left it in the hot sun to take pictures and that didn't help).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9892867pilot01.jpg>

I used the wife's home made pizza, chewed up, and placed in the pilot hole.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1163525alignmentpin02.jpg>

An M12x1.25 bolt that I bought to make dowel pins out of worked fine with
parafilm wrapped on the threads to snug it up a bit.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4879341pilot03.jpg>

It only took about 10 minutes but it took am amazing number of refills.

Thanks everyone for that idea. Since the clutch fork fell out while I was
tipping the transmission on its end to look at the rear seal, everything is
out now (I just have to figure out how it all goes back together!).

On 25 Jul 2018 05:57:38 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> For gasket maker I never use anything but "the right stuff" from
> Permatex

Thanks Clare.
I'm pretty much ready for reassembly.

I'm not sure if I pack the pilot bearing area with grease or not:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg>

But here's that promised before & after flywheel photo with part numbers
stamped "Engineerd in USA PHT50-136-033118" on the new flywheel:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6217915flywheel001.jpg>
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4020392flywheel002.jpg>

One screwup is that the clutch fork and throwout bearing fell out when I
tipped the transmission vertical on the bell housing to look at the rear
seal where I'm not sure what the proper technique is to get it out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5004047rearseal01.jpg>

So I'm looking up how they went back together where I should have marked
the position when I first took the transmission off the engine.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9205011fork01.jpg>

Most of my mistakes and questions are because I've never done this before.
Thanks for your patience and advice.

On 25 Jul 2018 19:54:00 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> You are NOT a mechanical engineer..FOLLOW THE TORQUE SPECSs!!!!!!!
> You do NOT want a flywheel bolt fracturing after you have it all back
> together and running!!!!!!!!!!!
> The torque spec is correct, and was arrived at for a good reason
> The difference is the 3RZ uses torque to yield, or "stretch" bolts
> (which SHOULD be replaced every time they are removed)
> You do NOT want to over-stretch a bolt that is not designed for
> "torque to yield" - or strip the threads out of the crankshaft
> either!!!!!!!!

EDIT: I sent this yesterday but I see it failed and was still in my inbox.

Hi Clare,
Thanks for that advice as I hadn't thought of that (I keep doing things
after you mention them because I don't know what you'll mention).

You have a good point there. I'm not a mechanical engineer. I didn't
realize the 3RZFE bolts should be replaced since I didn't see that
anywhere.

What you say makes sense. I'll back them out tomorrow and re-torque them to
the original spec. I did make sure that I put all 10 bolts in, and then
tightened all ten, and then removed each in a star pattern, one by one, to
torque them so that the torque would be even.

I did the same on the 6 bolts of the diaphragm.

I stopped at the point of putting the transmission back in as I have to
modify the jack because of a stupid placement of the front-to-back lever
where it hits the transmission and can't go as far as I need it.

I also knocked off loose the throw out bearing, so I'm going to rubber
band the fork at the outside so that doesn't happen gain.

I also moved the dowel pins I made so that both are on the bottom because I
couldn't see the one at the top anyway.

Here are some shots, but I have to finish this job so they're not annotated
well.

I first hand tightened and then tool tightened all 10
flywheel bolts, and then removed them one at a time in
a star pattern to torque and loctite blue them where I
then painted a white dot indicating bolts that are done.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3249536clutch008.jpg>

You can stick a 10mm battery holddown rod into the flywheel
holes to immobilize it but you're still going to need to
immobilize the flywheel later by wedging a prybar against
the teeth, so it's a waste of time to use the rod and,
besides, it gets in the way of long torque wrenches.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3686120clutch007.jpg>

This is the clutch disc on the flywheel showing the correct
alignment of the springs, which face toward the transmission.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1640228clutch006.jpg>

Putting the clutch on the flywheel was a breeze, where I jammed a
prybar into the flywheel teeth to immobilize it, and where I
put the alignment tool in the center. It was so easy, I'm not
sure what would have happend without the alignment tool as there
was nothing that I needed to align that I could tell.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6173425clutch005.jpg>

I have to modify the jack which is stupidly designed such that you
can't twist the lever for adjustment when the transmission is on
the jack. Also I have to rubber-band the clutch fork so it doesn't
fall loose again when I'm jiggling the transmission into place.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2711707clutch004.jpg>

I greased the TOB fork but I need thicker grease than Mobile 1 bearing
grease:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3390937clutch003.jpg>

This shows the clutch on the engine with the temporary dowel pins ready:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4146979clutch002.jpg

The transmission easily rolls to the temporary dowel pins
but that's where I needed the angle adjustment that the
badly designed transmission jack won't allow yet.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6936189clutch001.jpg>

Hi Clare,
You probably won't respond in time to help advise, me, but it's just not
going in.

I remember folks discussing putting the transmission in high gear (fifth in
this case), but I can't see why - but maybe it's to twist the transmission
shaft so that the male splined shaft at the front can be rotated a bit to
fit into the engine female splines?

I've been in neutral up until now, but I put the transmission in fifth but
what do you turn to rotate the shaft at the front?

The only thing there is are the splines on the back, but how do you turn
them? You can't get your fingers in there and you need a female spline
which you won't have.

I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
How do you rotate it?

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 12:29:36 PM UTC-10, Arlen Holder wrote:
> Hi Clare,
> You probably won't respond in time to help advise, me, but it's just not
> going in.
>
> I remember folks discussing putting the transmission in high gear (fifth in
> this case), but I can't see why - but maybe it's to twist the transmission
> shaft so that the male splined shaft at the front can be rotated a bit to
> fit into the engine female splines?
>
> I've been in neutral up until now, but I put the transmission in fifth but
> what do you turn to rotate the shaft at the front?
>
> The only thing there is are the splines on the back, but how do you turn
> them? You can't get your fingers in there and you need a female spline
> which you won't have.
>
> I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
> How do you rotate it?

Make sure the engine and transmission are meeting at the correct angles. They have to be going in straight to each other. Check to make sure you haven't knocked the clutch disk out of alignment.

Arlen Holder wrote:
> Hi Clare,
> You probably won't respond in time to help advise, me, but it's just not
> going in.
>
> I remember folks discussing putting the transmission in high gear (fifth in
> this case), but I can't see why - but maybe it's to twist the transmission
> shaft so that the male splined shaft at the front can be rotated a bit to
> fit into the engine female splines?
>
> I've been in neutral up until now, but I put the transmission in fifth but
> what do you turn to rotate the shaft at the front?
>
> The only thing there is are the splines on the back, but how do you turn
> them? You can't get your fingers in there and you need a female spline
> which you won't have.
>
> I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
> How do you rotate it?

Did you try both the clutch disk and the pilot brearing on the trans
before assembly?
If they fit ok then keep jigging the trans or back it out and turn the
shaft a couple of degrees by hand and try again.
Where is the drive shaft? Can you plug it into the back of the trans?
Tie the other end up on something to get it ~level.