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Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 28th 05, 02:02 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"


On 27 Dec 2005 03:01:21 -0800,
wrote:
>
>Scott en Aztlán wrote:>> On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 03:27:19 +0100, theprincessesmother
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> Nobody asked you to post here...

>
>You are an unbelievable, hearless prick. Holy ****.

Give me a break. None of you trolls know these kids, much less give a
**** about them. You're just using this as an opportunity to flame
people.

What I want to know is how you all find out about these threads? Y'all
are clearly not regular readers of this group (unless you're a couple
of sockpuppets with new nymshifts); you just come here, post your
flames, and then disappear again. Do you have some sort of "Troll's
Alert Network" where you and your fellow flamers exchange leads?
Thank you Todd for your consideration. Elizabeth



Scott-I own and administrate a forum, I also moderate at several forums and I am well aware of Trolls and Flamers, both of which we are not. I am sorry that you are so paranoid. Perhaps, past experience has hardened you.

I cannot speak for other family members that respond to other threads, but we stumbled on a link that brought us to this thread. While reading through the thread, we hoped that one or some of you had the knowledge and understanding of the vehicle in question and it's limitations or the possibilities of driving that 'might' fill in some blank spaces. Hoping to make some sense. It was quite disheartening to read such callous comments with absolutely no regard or 'respect' of others. Regardless of whether the family reads the thread or not, regardless of whether you know the persons involved or not, regardless whether you care. Compassion is the ability to show concern and respect for others, and the ability to relate to anothers loss. I suppose it is a way that we are 'raised'. There are certain things we just don't do. Disrespecting others, usually means we disrespect ourselves.
At the very least, how would you feel if it was your Mother, sister, daughter, son, brother and IT posted their tragedy on a site that you came across, and you read things that were in-human.

I don't know whether your lack of empathy or respect for others is because you are too young, too shallow, too lonely or perhaps too old and bitter, but it only reflects on the kind of person you are and how you might have been raised.

A Troll, is someone who posts threads with only chaos and disruption in mind, then reply to various threads with 'flaming' remarks...well, unfortunately, they post such posts as both you and Brent posted. So I would be safe to say that Laura Bush, who certainly needs some sort of therapy, she would be considered a Troll, and IT (As nacromancer) so kindly put it, doesn't need her own flamers but rather she has members like yourself and Brent who have no respect or self control to just let fall down the page.
Perhaps, in the future, when IT posts more of someone elses grief, you might be man enough to just pass over it. If the thread gets no responses, eventually her goal to disrupt your forums will nolonger hold any interest for her. Obviously, she/he IT doesn't do it for a request to help make things better or to appeal to those who are involved in the circuit, either personally or professionally. But then again, it would take a mature, responsible man to pass up an opportunity to 'flame' another and allow the thread to simply slide down the page.


Take care and be well. Elizabeth


--
far2go4
I'm "The Mother-Proclaimed Princesses'" Aunt!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.carstalk.net/viewtopic-364209.html

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  #2  
Old December 28th 05, 11:40 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"

In article >, far2go4 wrote:

> A Troll, is someone who posts threads with only chaos and disruption
> in mind, then reply to various threads with 'flaming' remarks...well,
> unfortunately, they post such posts as both you and Brent posted.


I've posted nothing of the kind. If you have a problem with a specific
post, cite it.

The fact remains, Teenagers are driving cars that they couldn't
possibily own without the help of mommie and daddie. That is not a flame
in anyway. Neither is the strict definition of a sports car. It's existed
since before I was born, and like I posted wether or not I believe in the
strict definition is irrelevant and does not change what it is.

BTW, try to post 80 or less characters per line. Usenet is not a web forum
where CRs are used every paragraph. It's an old-school conventional text
forum where CRs are used every line.




  #3  
Old December 29th 05, 01:26 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 02:02:35 +0100, far2go4
> wrote:

>Scott-I own and administrate a forum, I also moderate at several forums
>and I am well aware of Trolls and Flamers


Odd... One would expect a forum owner/administrator to know how to
quote properly and how to set their line wrap correctly.

> Perhaps, past experience has hardened you.


"Hardened" is not the word I would use. "Wisened" is more like it.

You have to admit that's an AMAZING coincidence that, of all the
billions of people in this world, that the mother of someone being
discussed in this obscure little newsgroup should just happen to be
passing by. Of course, another possible explanation is that
"theprincessmother" is NOT the mother of the girl who died, but is
actually just some troll who took advantage of an opportunity to play
a role and post some inflammatory remarks.

Given your vast experience owning and administrating online message
fora, which do you think is more likely?

>I cannot speak for other family members that respond to other threads,
>but we stumbled on a link that brought us to this thread.


Who are "we?" Are you also claiming to be a relative of this dead
girl? If not, why do you care so much?

>At the very least, how would you feel if it was your Mother, sister,
>daughter, son, brother and IT posted their tragedy on a site that
>you came across, and you read things that were in-human.


If one of my relatives won a Darwin award, I would certainly not blame
anyone for pointing that out.

  #4  
Old December 29th 05, 02:49 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"

Quote:

I've posted nothing of the kind. If you have a problem with a specific

post, cite it.
It was pertaining to the 'Another self-proclaimed princess..." Which
had this not been there, probably myself or Staci's mom would never had
posted anything. It was that one line that
motivated a response. Perhaps, you meant no harm.

Quote:
The fact remains, Teenagers are driving cars that they couldn't
possibily own without the help of mommie and daddie. That is not a
flame
in anyway. Neither is the strict definition of a sports car. It's
existed
since before I was born, and like I posted wether or not I believe in
the
strict definition is irrelevant and does not change what it is.

I understand your stand on the importance of how these 'children' can
afford such vehicles. However, there isn't a debate on whether your
opinion is right or wrong, albeit, in hind-thought, I can assure you
his family have their regret and are overwhelmed by guilt, and still,
whether he paid for it in cash, his parents co-signed a loan, or even
he borrowed the car is not going to bring Staci back. I agree, parents
need to take responsibilty when they provide them with a car without
providing the child with the training to use it responsibly. The
consequence is much too high.

Brent Wrote:

Quote:
Here lies the problem in US society. It's "heartless" to examine real
causes of incidents. We are supposed to be feeling for the loss or
looking for someone else or something to blame.
No. Making sense and finding blame are two separate things.
The blame is on Eric, the driver who drove recklessly and hadn't
considered Staci's well fare. What I guess I would like to know is
what 'irresponsible' manuevers would cause a vehicle that is made
and designed to handle over 100 mph speeds, to spin out on a
straight-way,
with no other 'known' vehicles on the roadway and crash, breaking into
two halfs
and shattered pieces. I wonder...if this question will remain
unanswered.


Brent Wrote:

Quote:
I've been in one major collision in my life. I've told the story here
before. The front driver's side tire of my 1975 maverick blew out while

braking from aproximately 55mph on an interstate. The car spun and I
pulled it out of the spin to a stop where it was then hit on the
passenger side by a semi truck.
I would consider this situation an accident. No one has any control
over the situation,
no one caused it, life just happens.

I agree, the teenagers today have no respect, no concern for
consequence and unfortunately, have never learned to take
responsibility for their actions. It appears they don't care.

Quote:
There was recently a decision in a lawsuit where ford was successfully
sued for 65 million dollars in damages because a ford explorer flipped
over when the teenaged driver fell asleep at the wheel, woke up and
gave the
steering wheel a yank in an effort to get back on the road. How in the

world is the crash of an essentially driverless vehicle, hell worse
than
a driverless vehicle, someone giving steering inputs that are exactly
what one would do to cause a flip and there is no examination of driver

training or responsibility. It's ford's fault. There are countless
lawsuits like this.
And that is only because society once again, does not expect everyone
to take responsibility for their own actions. Like the lawsuit on
Mcdonalds and the hot coffee.
Again, the point was not to find blame but to clarify that Staci didn't
think herself to be a princess, but rather her mother did.

Quote:
Yeah, I'm the heartless one, calling for real training, engineered road

systems, better performing vehicles (braking,handling,lighting,etc),
and
other things to prevent crashes while the "feeling" members of society
pass another <insert child's name> law that does absolutely nothing but

annoy people.
No, I don't consider the desire for real training heartless, I do
however, feel that
the opinion and points made through this thread could be presented
with respect for the families. Just like your most recent post. The
points
are strong, clearly written and are respectful.

I appreciate your input and I apologize for intruding on your USENET
forums.

Regards, Elizabeth

  #5  
Old December 29th 05, 03:24 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"

Scott:

First, carstalk.net is a webwide forum that connects into USENET and
therefore,
links can be easily stumbled upon by googling a name or using any
search engine.

Second, Had you been raised properly you might consider that the person

or persons you are replying to 'COULD" be the mother. The chance of a
person
replying to a thread about their child is always a possibility and so
therefore, you
have the choice of either, not replying or at the very least, making
considerate
postings--with this in mind.

Third, my reference to my experience with forums was to express my
sympathies
and understanding pertaining to troll postings and flamers. I've dealt
with my share.
However, it still would not give me the right to be so blatantly
disrespectful
to someone who 'claims' they have just suffered such a grievious loss.

And last but not least, Jackie, is truly Anastasia's mother and had
only read through the thread
hoping to learn something about the cars performance, hoping to make
some sense
of what happened. Not to place blame. Not to flame or even to have a
conversation with anyone
about her loss. Searching for answers. Normally I wouldn't give much
importance to your
immature and disrespectful suspicions...however-

Here is a link to Anastasia's Obituary Guest Book. I hope, that at the
very least, for no other reason
at all, you might look closely at her mothers heartache and come back
with an apology
to her. If you have any respect for your mother, you would understand
that you've been unnecessarily
disrespectful towards her and as one might say, own up to your own
misunderstandings.

http://www.legacy.com/palmbeachpost/...sonID=15751088

I wish I could say this is all a bad dream!

Hopefully you never know the heartache.

Elizabeth--


  #6  
Old December 29th 05, 03:43 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Posts: n/a
Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"

"far2go4" > wrote
> I appreciate your input and I apologize for intruding on your USENET
> forums.


Under *NO* circumstances should you apologize for "intruding".
Usenet was, (arguably still is) before the advent of chat groups, forums
and such based upon IM, the freest forum for expression extant. It is
open to all, excludes none, and has a very rich and extensive subject list
that you are free and welcome to explore. The non-moderated groups
are mostly rants and infested with trolls, but there is still a great deal
of value there.

We only ask that you read and follow the posting guidelines, which
include pure text (not HTML), 80-character lines, no graphics, etc.
These guidelines are readily available, as are many free newsreaders
(including Outlook Express, which you probably have.)

FloydR
  #7  
Old December 29th 05, 03:50 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incrediblyoutgoing, beautiful person"

far2go4 wrote:

>
Quote:
>
> I've posted nothing of the kind. If you have a problem with a specific
>
> post, cite it.
>
> It was pertaining to the 'Another self-proclaimed princess..." Which
> had this not been there, probably myself or Staci's mom would never had
> posted anything. It was that one line that
> motivated a response. Perhaps, you meant no harm.


From my search through both my usenet feed and Google groups, I was not
able to find anyone who made any such remark. In fact, searching for
the word "princess" in rec.autos.driving only returned the post that I'm
responding to.

> I appreciate your input and I apologize for intruding on your USENET
> forums.


Anyone is welcome to post to usenet. It's just that there are
established conventions regarding formatting a given post as well as how
to place followups to a certain post.

For instance, does not work on usenet since it's solely
a text based means of communication. The established convention for
quoting material is to prepend each line with a '>' character as shown
above with the material you previously typed.

As Brent mentioned, each line should have a <CR> at the end of it and
line lengths should be between 72 to 76 characters. Also, when
responding to a post, you should try replying directly to it so that
your post actually comes directly below the post you're responding to
when people see it in a threaded view.

Pretty much all software used to post to usenet does this for you and
even Google groups does a good job with keeping followups in the right
place as well as properly quoting text (as long as you click on the
correct reply button).

Unfortunately, carstalk doesn't allow you to do that. If I were you,
I'd try posting through Google groups. Go to http://groups.google.com
and type rec.autos.driving in the group field. Then you can post if you
have an account.
  #8  
Old December 29th 05, 03:59 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"

In article . com>, far2go4 wrote:
>
Quote:
> I've posted nothing of the kind. If you have a problem with a specific
> post, cite it.


This is not a web forum, tags do not work here. This is usenet. If it
didn't exist in 1985, it doesn't work here. Usenet is a very old part of
the net and predates most people's knowledge of it. Communication is in
ascii text. Even binary files are uuencoded (or more modern versions
there of) into 70col text for transmission on usenet (in binary groups).

> It was pertaining to the 'Another self-proclaimed princess..." Which
> had this not been there, probably myself or Staci's mom would never had
> posted anything. It was that one line that
> motivated a response. Perhaps, you meant no harm.


So repeating, as a side note, what was in the article, is a 'troll'?
The article spent a good deal of words on the 'princess' aspect. Was it
inaccurate? Because the only reason one would take offense is due to
inaccuracy, in which case your beef is with the news media, not me or my
unstated opinion of "princesses".

correcting quoting...

>> The fact remains, Teenagers are driving cars that they couldn't
>> possibily own without the help of mommie and daddie. That is not a
>> flame in anyway. Neither is the strict definition of a sports car. It's
>> existed since before I was born, and like I posted wether or not I
>> believe in the strict definition is irrelevant and does not change what
>> it is.


> I understand your stand on the importance of how these 'children' can
> afford such vehicles. However, there isn't a debate on whether your
> opinion is right or wrong, albeit, in hind-thought, I can assure you
> his family have their regret and are overwhelmed by guilt, and still,
> whether he paid for it in cash, his parents co-signed a loan, or even
> he borrowed the car is not going to bring Staci back. I agree, parents
> need to take responsibilty when they provide them with a car without
> providing the child with the training to use it responsibly. The
> consequence is much too high.


Exactly. Now imagine if you've been the victim of bad teenage driving three
times over and the near victim too many times to count. 2 out of three
times I got lame teenage excuses of 'cleaning the windshield' while
driving 40mph... and 'I was in a hurry'. At least the most recent one
didn't give a lame excuse but took responsibility. He'll probably grow up
to be the best adult of the three.

>> Here lies the problem in US society. It's "heartless" to examine real
>> causes of incidents. We are supposed to be feeling for the loss or
>> looking for someone else or something to blame.


> No. Making sense and finding blame are two separate things.


This is more or less a technical forum. We've lost most of our best
contributors regarding autocross, vehicle handling and so forth due
to the constant speed-kills trolls and the like. We've lost the best
contributor regarding engineering of road systems. But a good number of
us learned from them and on our own and get rather tired of the 'speeding
teen driver kills self and friend(s)' articles being used as an excuse
for absurdly low speed limits and other nonsenical laws.

> The blame is on Eric, the driver who drove recklessly and hadn't
> considered Staci's well fare. What I guess I would like to know is
> what 'irresponsible' manuevers would cause a vehicle that is made
> and designed to handle over 100 mph speeds, to spin out on a
> straight-way, with no other 'known' vehicles on the roadway and crash,
> breaking into two halfs and shattered pieces. I wonder...if this
> question will remain unanswered.


It broke in half because it's a unit body car. Unit body automobiles
don't have much in the way of solid structure in the middle because the
middle doesn't support anything, it is supported. Thusly a solid object
like a strong tree or old fashioned non-breakway light pole will slice
through the middle of the vehicle given sufficent (ie, well above
what should be driven on any road with such hazards near the
roadway) vehicle speed.

As to why he lost control, if you provide pictures of the road (as a url
to somewhere on the web) I am sure someone here can make reasonable
guesses. My guess is that it is not a 100mph road. I know many roads
where a full out super car like a Ford GT could be wrecked at speeds
much lower than 100mph.

>> I've been in one major collision in my life. I've told the story here
>> before. The front driver's side tire of my 1975 maverick blew out while
>> braking from aproximately 55mph on an interstate. The car spun and I
>> pulled it out of the spin to a stop where it was then hit on the
>> passenger side by a semi truck.


> I would consider this situation an accident. No one has any control
> over the situation, no one caused it, life just happens.


That was my point in bringing it up. I looked at myself, my actions
regarding it, even though it was something that could have killed far
better drivers in far better cars than a then 19 year old ford compact
with technology straight out of the 1950s.

> I agree, the teenagers today have no respect, no concern for
> consequence and unfortunately, have never learned to take
> responsibility for their actions. It appears they don't care.


And I've been hit by a couple of them.

>> There was recently a decision in a lawsuit where ford was successfully
>> sued for 65 million dollars in damages because a ford explorer flipped
>> over when the teenaged driver fell asleep at the wheel, woke up and
>> gave the steering wheel a yank in an effort to get back on the road.
>> How in the world is the crash of an essentially driverless vehicle,
>> hell worse than a driverless vehicle, someone giving steering inputs
>> that are exactly what one would do to cause a flip and there is no
>> examination of driver training or responsibility. It's ford's fault.
>> There are countless lawsuits like this.


> And that is only because society once again, does not expect everyone
> to take responsibility for their own actions. Like the lawsuit on
> Mcdonalds and the hot coffee.


BINGO.

> Again, the point was not to find blame but to clarify that Staci didn't
> think herself to be a princess, but rather her mother did.


So your beef is with the news media then. I am somehow at fault for
getting that impression from the news story?

>> Yeah, I'm the heartless one, calling for real training, engineered road
>> systems, better performing vehicles (braking,handling,lighting,etc),
>> and other things to prevent crashes while the "feeling" members of society
>> pass another <insert child's name> law that does absolutely nothing but
>> annoy people.


> No, I don't consider the desire for real training heartless, I do
> however, feel that the opinion and points made through this thread
> could be presented with respect for the families. Just like your most
> recent post. The points are strong, clearly written and are respectful.


Then your beef should be with the speed kills types who use every family
tragedy to advance their agenda of government control and lowest common
demonator driving with rigid enforcement and excessive penalties.

I'm tired of it, as is practically everyone else who is interested in
driving, bicycling, motorcycling, rollerblading, or any other form of
transport.

Everytime I turn around it seems there is another preventable
tragedy being used to push someone's agenda of control. If there is a
drunk driver with a 0.25 BAC that kills someone we get the
neoprohibitionists calling for new lower BAC limits of .03. If some
kid finds daddy's gun and it comes to a tragic end we have the gun
control lobby demanding handguns be illegal. If some guy on a bicycle
gets run over by a cement truck that ran a red signal crushing the
bicyclist's chest the helmet lobby comes out and demands laws forcing us
to wear foam hats while using a bicycle and baning bicycling from
various roads and building of more glorified sidewalks. If some crotch
rocket rider offs himself on the dan-ryan doing a 120mph while lane
splitting in heavy traffic we get demands for helmet laws. (last time
for bicyclists and roller bladers, make sense of that one) If some one
who is 125 years old and half blind mistakes the accelerator for the brake
and plows through a farmers market, there is call to ban driving for
those over age 55 or some other nonsense. And lastly, if some teen is
driving excessively fast for conditions loses control and kills himself
or others we get calls for pushing up the driving age, lower speed
limits, and anything else that could be tangentially justified using that
event but does nothing to address root cause.

In the USA, this society, and it's government and media refuse to
actually deal with problems. They are quickly brushed over with a coat of
paint and that's it. Meanwhile, like rust that is just painted over, it
doesn't go away, it just grows and pops up again.

> I appreciate your input and I apologize for intruding on your USENET
> forums.


Thanks, there is no intrusion because it is free and open for all. The
annoyance comes in when the simple formating conventions are not used.
  #9  
Old December 29th 05, 04:03 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incredibly outgoing, beautiful person"

In article >, Arif Khokar wrote:

> From my search through both my usenet feed and Google groups, I was not
> able to find anyone who made any such remark. In fact, searching for
> the word "princess" in rec.autos.driving only returned the post that I'm
> responding to.


I made a side reference to what was in the article. And it does exist in
the google archive. Google has it as two threads and I reviewed all my
posts in this thread before posting asking for a cite. My comment wasn't
a troll in any sense, but a couple words relating what was in the
article.

  #10  
Old December 29th 05, 04:46 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Speeding teen kills self and friend - Described as an " incrediblyoutgoing, beautiful person"

Brent P wrote:

> I made a side reference to what was in the article. And it does exist in
> the google archive. Google has it as two threads and I reviewed all my
> posts in this thread before posting asking for a cite. My comment wasn't
> a troll in any sense, but a couple words relating what was in the
> article.


Ah ok. I limited my search to December which is why I missed it.
 




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