I try stuff so you don't have to

Been a while since I did one of these...5 years? Been a while since I
posted on Usenet. But, here goes!

Fluid Film. I bought some of this stuff because it is illegal in Mass to
spray your car with hydraulic oil, although that has never stopped me
before. But I did buy some and sprayed the Scion to hopefully keep it
from rusting out. One drawback: it's made from "Woll Lanolin" which I
assume is sheep dip. It smells like a rendering plant I used to pass on
the way to work. It takes a few MONTHS before the smell goes away.

It is also billed as a lubricant and penetrant, and the description says
it soaks into the rust scales to the base metal and STOPS the rusting of
the base metal. OK, but it will take 12-14 years to see if it works...

But I bought a couple more cans at a Mazda dealer because they were half
price and the front crossmember on my 89 Mazda was starting to rust.
We'll see. I also sprayed around the car on any bolts, etc I think I
might have to remove, and other places where the paint had worn away and
rust was starting.

While I was under the car I noticed the shift linkage, which is a metal
rod ala VW was rusting at the U joint, so I sprayed it. I went inside,
had a snack and a cup of coffee, and about half an hour later went out to
go to the store. The shifter was a bit stiffer than it had been before.
The shifter in this car was REALLY sloppy, but now not as much. Still not
tight, but it doesn't rattle in 4th gear anymore...

So, I'm thinking...there must have been some bushings in there....hmmmm...

What does wool lanolin do to rubber....? After a wekk the shifter was
still nice and smooth, so I called the company. On their website the FAQ
says it will swell rubber, but nothing more. So I asked if it
deteriorates rubber, and the girl (very nice, BTW) said, no, it will make
it swell, but not deteriorate it.

COOL!

I jack up the rear of the car and put the ramps under it.

My rear bushings have been bad since I bought the car in 2006, and you
cannot buy the bushings. You have to buy all the links, at a total of
about $900. A smooth firm ride on a 24 year old car with 218,880 miles is
NOT a concern, but it would be nice.

I sprayed all the bushings and let the car sit for about an hour, then
took it out for a test drive. Now, it didn't ride like a new car, but a
LOT of the slop in ther rear suspension is GONE! If they repair cracks in
the asphalt in your area by spraying tar into them, you know the tar
swells and makes the road really bumpy. I took it down one of these and
while not smooth as silk, I barely noticed going over the cracks like I
did before. And on a smooth road the car is a real pleasure to drive.
Also, on the highway, anything above 60 MPH felt dicey, loose and not
very safe. Now 70 MPH is no problem.

This is just a test, and we'll see what happens in the coming months, but
as long as it doesn't deteriorate the rubber I don't see it being a
problem!

On 05/07/2013 10:02 PM, Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク wrote:
> Been a while since I did one of these...5 years? Been a while since I
> posted on Usenet. But, here goes!
>
> Fluid Film. I bought some of this stuff because it is illegal in Mass to
> spray your car with hydraulic oil, although that has never stopped me
> before. But I did buy some and sprayed the Scion to hopefully keep it
> from rusting out. One drawback: it's made from "Woll Lanolin" which I
> assume is sheep dip. It smells like a rendering plant I used to pass on
> the way to work. It takes a few MONTHS before the smell goes away.
>
> It is also billed as a lubricant and penetrant, and the description says
> it soaks into the rust scales to the base metal and STOPS the rusting of
> the base metal. OK, but it will take 12-14 years to see if it works...
>
> But I bought a couple more cans at a Mazda dealer because they were half
> price and the front crossmember on my 89 Mazda was starting to rust.
> We'll see. I also sprayed around the car on any bolts, etc I think I
> might have to remove, and other places where the paint had worn away and
> rust was starting.
>
> While I was under the car I noticed the shift linkage, which is a metal
> rod ala VW was rusting at the U joint, so I sprayed it. I went inside,
> had a snack and a cup of coffee, and about half an hour later went out to
> go to the store. The shifter was a bit stiffer than it had been before.
> The shifter in this car was REALLY sloppy, but now not as much. Still not
> tight, but it doesn't rattle in 4th gear anymore...
>
> So, I'm thinking...there must have been some bushings in there....hmmmm...
>
> What does wool lanolin do to rubber....? After a wekk the shifter was
> still nice and smooth, so I called the company. On their website the FAQ
> says it will swell rubber, but nothing more. So I asked if it
> deteriorates rubber, and the girl (very nice, BTW) said, no, it will make
> it swell, but not deteriorate it.
>
> COOL!
>
> I jack up the rear of the car and put the ramps under it.
>
> My rear bushings have been bad since I bought the car in 2006, and you
> cannot buy the bushings. You have to buy all the links, at a total of
> about $900. A smooth firm ride on a 24 year old car with 218,880 miles is
> NOT a concern, but it would be nice.
>
> I sprayed all the bushings and let the car sit for about an hour, then
> took it out for a test drive. Now, it didn't ride like a new car, but a
> LOT of the slop in ther rear suspension is GONE! If they repair cracks in
> the asphalt in your area by spraying tar into them, you know the tar
> swells and makes the road really bumpy. I took it down one of these and
> while not smooth as silk, I barely noticed going over the cracks like I
> did before. And on a smooth road the car is a real pleasure to drive.
> Also, on the highway, anything above 60 MPH felt dicey, loose and not
> very safe. Now 70 MPH is no problem.
>
> This is just a test, and we'll see what happens in the coming months, but
> as long as it doesn't deteriorate the rubber I don't see it being a
> problem!
>

ready for this? when rubber swells, it's usually because some of the
cross-linking of all the large springy rubber molecules is starting to
come apart. that is essentially the precursor to failure because now
it'll deform, and not spring back. not immediately of course, but over
time. you've seen oiled saturated radiator hoses slowly swell, then
burst over time i'm sure.

now, sometimes rubber can swell because of other chemicals that /don't/
break the cross-linking, rubber conditioners like this are used in a
number of applications, including engine oil additives that keep seals
working properly. but it's a fine line, and you need to know what
you're doing.

anyway, fingers crossed on this. do more homework on the bushings
though. honda try to sell you whole new suspension arms, but if you can
hunt down the individual part numbers, you can buy the bushings alone.
the cost saving is debatable since replacement on some of the components
is a REAL pita, but you can buy them. i have to think that toyota,
since they buy from the same sources, have similar means. you might
also be able to repair a bushing with one of the soft castable urethane
compounds. i've done this for experiment purposes, and the results,
done carefully, can be quite acceptable.


--
fact check required

Very interesting. Is Fluid Film the name brand? Sounds like it might
be worth trying on my older cars.

I periodically use spray on engine degreaser to clean off the bottom
side of the engine and the suspension parts. One time when I did that
I thought it would be a good idea to lube the bushings with silicone
to "protect" them from the cleansing effects of the engine degreaser.
As soon as I did the silicone spray the vehicle (92 Explorer 4x4)
started making terrible groaning noises on every bump from the rubber
bushings movements. No amount of additional spraying with silicone
would stop the noise. So I redid the degreaser application and rinse
and 95% of the noise went away. Seems backwards but that's what
happened.


On 08 May 2013 05:02:41 GMT, Hachiroku ???? > wrote:

>Been a while since I did one of these...5 years? Been a while since I
>posted on Usenet. But, here goes!
>
>Fluid Film. I bought some of this stuff because it is illegal in Mass to
>spray your car with hydraulic oil, although that has never stopped me
>before. But I did buy some and sprayed the Scion to hopefully keep it
>from rusting out. One drawback: it's made from "Woll Lanolin" which I
>assume is sheep dip. It smells like a rendering plant I used to pass on
>the way to work. It takes a few MONTHS before the smell goes away.
>
>It is also billed as a lubricant and penetrant, and the description says
>it soaks into the rust scales to the base metal and STOPS the rusting of
>the base metal. OK, but it will take 12-14 years to see if it works...
>
>But I bought a couple more cans at a Mazda dealer because they were half
>price and the front crossmember on my 89 Mazda was starting to rust.
>We'll see. I also sprayed around the car on any bolts, etc I think I
>might have to remove, and other places where the paint had worn away and
>rust was starting.
>
>While I was under the car I noticed the shift linkage, which is a metal
>rod ala VW was rusting at the U joint, so I sprayed it. I went inside,
>had a snack and a cup of coffee, and about half an hour later went out to
>go to the store. The shifter was a bit stiffer than it had been before.
>The shifter in this car was REALLY sloppy, but now not as much. Still not
>tight, but it doesn't rattle in 4th gear anymore...
>
>So, I'm thinking...there must have been some bushings in there....hmmmm...
>
>What does wool lanolin do to rubber....? After a wekk the shifter was
>still nice and smooth, so I called the company. On their website the FAQ
>says it will swell rubber, but nothing more. So I asked if it
>deteriorates rubber, and the girl (very nice, BTW) said, no, it will make
>it swell, but not deteriorate it.
>
>COOL!
>
>I jack up the rear of the car and put the ramps under it.
>
>My rear bushings have been bad since I bought the car in 2006, and you
>cannot buy the bushings. You have to buy all the links, at a total of
>about $900. A smooth firm ride on a 24 year old car with 218,880 miles is
>NOT a concern, but it would be nice.
>
>I sprayed all the bushings and let the car sit for about an hour, then
>took it out for a test drive. Now, it didn't ride like a new car, but a
>LOT of the slop in ther rear suspension is GONE! If they repair cracks in
>the asphalt in your area by spraying tar into them, you know the tar
>swells and makes the road really bumpy. I took it down one of these and
>while not smooth as silk, I barely noticed going over the cracks like I
>did before. And on a smooth road the car is a real pleasure to drive.
>Also, on the highway, anything above 60 MPH felt dicey, loose and not
>very safe. Now 70 MPH is no problem.
>
>This is just a test, and we'll see what happens in the coming months, but
>as long as it doesn't deteriorate the rubber I don't see it being a
>problem!

"Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
eb.com...
> Been a while since I did one of these...5 years? Been a while since I
> posted on Usenet. But, here goes!
>
> Fluid Film. I bought some of this stuff because it is illegal in Mass to
> spray your car with hydraulic oil, although that has never stopped me
> before. But I did buy some and sprayed the Scion to hopefully keep it
> from rusting out. One drawback: it's made from "Woll Lanolin" which I
> assume is sheep dip. It smells like a rendering plant I used to pass on
> the way to work. It takes a few MONTHS before the smell goes away.
>
> It is also billed as a lubricant and penetrant, and the description says
> it soaks into the rust scales to the base metal and STOPS the rusting of
> the base metal. OK, but it will take 12-14 years to see if it works...
>
> But I bought a couple more cans at a Mazda dealer because they were half
> price and the front crossmember on my 89 Mazda was starting to rust.
> We'll see. I also sprayed around the car on any bolts, etc I think I
> might have to remove, and other places where the paint had worn away and
> rust was starting.
>
> While I was under the car I noticed the shift linkage, which is a metal
> rod ala VW was rusting at the U joint, so I sprayed it. I went inside,
> had a snack and a cup of coffee, and about half an hour later went out to
> go to the store. The shifter was a bit stiffer than it had been before.
> The shifter in this car was REALLY sloppy, but now not as much. Still not
> tight, but it doesn't rattle in 4th gear anymore...
>
> So, I'm thinking...there must have been some bushings in there....hmmmm...
>
> What does wool lanolin do to rubber....? After a wekk the shifter was
> still nice and smooth, so I called the company. On their website the FAQ
> says it will swell rubber, but nothing more. So I asked if it
> deteriorates rubber, and the girl (very nice, BTW) said, no, it will make
> it swell, but not deteriorate it.
>
> COOL!
>
> I jack up the rear of the car and put the ramps under it.
>
> My rear bushings have been bad since I bought the car in 2006, and you
> cannot buy the bushings. You have to buy all the links, at a total of
> about $900. A smooth firm ride on a 24 year old car with 218,880 miles is
> NOT a concern, but it would be nice.
>
> I sprayed all the bushings and let the car sit for about an hour, then
> took it out for a test drive. Now, it didn't ride like a new car, but a
> LOT of the slop in ther rear suspension is GONE! If they repair cracks in
> the asphalt in your area by spraying tar into them, you know the tar
> swells and makes the road really bumpy. I took it down one of these and
> while not smooth as silk, I barely noticed going over the cracks like I
> did before. And on a smooth road the car is a real pleasure to drive.
> Also, on the highway, anything above 60 MPH felt dicey, loose and not
> very safe. Now 70 MPH is no problem.
>
> This is just a test, and we'll see what happens in the coming months, but
> as long as it doesn't deteriorate the rubber I don't see it being a
> problem!

Swollen rubber = deteriorated rubber. No other way.

On 5/8/2013 12:02 AM, Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク wrote:
> Been a while since I did one of these...5 years? Been a while since I
> posted on Usenet. But, here goes!
>
> Fluid Film. I bought some of this stuff because it is illegal in Mass to
> spray your car with hydraulic oil, although that has never stopped me
> before. But I did buy some and sprayed the Scion to hopefully keep it
> from rusting out. One drawback: it's made from "Woll Lanolin" which I
> assume is sheep dip. It smells like a rendering plant I used to pass on
> the way to work. It takes a few MONTHS before the smell goes away.
>
> It is also billed as a lubricant and penetrant, and the description says
> it soaks into the rust scales to the base metal and STOPS the rusting of
> the base metal. OK, but it will take 12-14 years to see if it works...
>
> But I bought a couple more cans at a Mazda dealer because they were half
> price and the front crossmember on my 89 Mazda was starting to rust.
> We'll see. I also sprayed around the car on any bolts, etc I think I
> might have to remove, and other places where the paint had worn away and
> rust was starting.
>
> While I was under the car I noticed the shift linkage, which is a metal
> rod ala VW was rusting at the U joint, so I sprayed it. I went inside,
> had a snack and a cup of coffee, and about half an hour later went out to
> go to the store. The shifter was a bit stiffer than it had been before.
> The shifter in this car was REALLY sloppy, but now not as much. Still not
> tight, but it doesn't rattle in 4th gear anymore...
>
> So, I'm thinking...there must have been some bushings in there....hmmmm...
>
> What does wool lanolin do to rubber....? After a wekk the shifter was
> still nice and smooth, so I called the company. On their website the FAQ
> says it will swell rubber, but nothing more. So I asked if it
> deteriorates rubber, and the girl (very nice, BTW) said, no, it will make
> it swell, but not deteriorate it.
>
> COOL!
>
> I jack up the rear of the car and put the ramps under it.
>
> My rear bushings have been bad since I bought the car in 2006, and you
> cannot buy the bushings. You have to buy all the links, at a total of
> about $900. A smooth firm ride on a 24 year old car with 218,880 miles is
> NOT a concern, but it would be nice.
>
> I sprayed all the bushings and let the car sit for about an hour, then
> took it out for a test drive. Now, it didn't ride like a new car, but a
> LOT of the slop in ther rear suspension is GONE! If they repair cracks in
> the asphalt in your area by spraying tar into them, you know the tar
> swells and makes the road really bumpy. I took it down one of these and
> while not smooth as silk, I barely noticed going over the cracks like I
> did before. And on a smooth road the car is a real pleasure to drive.
> Also, on the highway, anything above 60 MPH felt dicey, loose and not
> very safe. Now 70 MPH is no problem.
>
> This is just a test, and we'll see what happens in the coming months, but
> as long as it doesn't deteriorate the rubber I don't see it being a
> problem!
>

That's pretty much the idea of 'sealant additives".

Degrades the seal material so it swells, which works for at
least some amount of time. Here's the first search result:
https://www.storesonline.com/site/457535/product/101106

One might argue that 'aging' is cured by restoring lost
volatile components of the polymer seal. I don't think
that's right, but then again I'm not selling sealer.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>That's pretty much the idea of 'sealant additives".
>
>Degrades the seal material so it swells, which works for at
>least some amount of time. Here's the first search result:
>https://www.storesonline.com/site/457535/product/101106
>
>One might argue that 'aging' is cured by restoring lost
>volatile components of the polymer seal. I don't think
>that's right, but then again I'm not selling sealer.

The problem is that there are hundreds of very different products with
completely unrelated chemistry, which people collectively call "rubber."
They all behave differently, fail differently, and react to solvents
differently.

For some viscoelastic materials, vinyl for instance, they can fail
due to loss of plasticizer making them brittle and adding plasticizer
to them can soften them and help.

For others, urethanes for instance, they mostly fail by the long
chain molecules breaking apart into smaller ones and turning into
goo, and there is nothing to be done about it.

For natural latex rubber, it mostly fails by becoming brittle, but
that brittle is caused by oxidation and crosslinking, not loss of
some plasticizing agent.

This is why you should be very wary of all these magic products that
somehow are treatments for all "rubber" materials. Some might be very
good on one material and terrible on another, and you don't know
until it's too late.

Sadly, BMW has discontinued gummipflege, which worked very well on
the window and door gasket materials used by that manufacturer
(but did no good for their air hoses).
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 05/08/2013 03:39 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> That's pretty much the idea of 'sealant additives".
>>
>> Degrades the seal material so it swells, which works for at
>> least some amount of time. Here's the first search result:
>> https://www.storesonline.com/site/457535/product/101106
>>
>> One might argue that 'aging' is cured by restoring lost
>> volatile components of the polymer seal. I don't think
>> that's right, but then again I'm not selling sealer.
>
> The problem is that there are hundreds of very different products with
> completely unrelated chemistry, which people collectively call "rubber."
> They all behave differently, fail differently, and react to solvents
> differently.
>
> For some viscoelastic materials, vinyl for instance, they can fail
> due to loss of plasticizer making them brittle and adding plasticizer
> to them can soften them and help.
>
> For others, urethanes for instance, they mostly fail by the long
> chain molecules breaking apart into smaller ones and turning into
> goo, and there is nothing to be done about it.
>
> For natural latex rubber, it mostly fails by becoming brittle, but
> that brittle is caused by oxidation and crosslinking, not loss of
> some plasticizing agent.

it also degrades in u.v. and fatigues - analogous to metal fatigue.
natural rubbers made into things like tires can be quite resistant to
O2, but vulnerable to O3.


>
> This is why you should be very wary of all these magic products that
> somehow are treatments for all "rubber" materials. Some might be very
> good on one material and terrible on another, and you don't know
> until it's too late.

indeed.


>
> Sadly, BMW has discontinued gummipflege, which worked very well on
> the window and door gasket materials used by that manufacturer
> (but did no good for their air hoses).
> --scott

honda used to sell a window rubber grease - will probably work. i've
also used dow molykote 44 and found it effective for the rubber.
absolute pig to keep the glass clean after though.


--
fact check required

jim beam wrote:
> On 05/08/2013 03:39 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> Sadly, BMW has discontinued gummipflege, which worked very well on
>> the window and door gasket materials used by that manufacturer
>> (but did no good for their air hoses).
>> --scott
>
> honda used to sell a window rubber grease - will probably work.
>
>
Sounds kinda like "Sil-Glide" from Napa.

GW

On 05/08/2013 06:39 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Sadly, BMW has discontinued gummipflege, which worked very well on
> the window and door gasket materials used by that manufacturer
> (but did no good for their air hoses).
> --scott
>

Gummi Pflege is made by Einszett ("1Z") and I just bought some last fall
on the recommendation of some BMW guys. I used to wipe silicone into my
door seals but they spoke so highly of the stuff that I figured I ought
to give it a try. I haven't noticed any ill effects yet, although I
can't think that I've actually had the car in a freezing rain to see if
it works as well as silicone to keep door seals from freezing shut.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 05/08/2013 10:52 PM, Geoff Welsh wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> On 05/08/2013 03:39 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>
>>> Sadly, BMW has discontinued gummipflege, which worked very well on
>>> the window and door gasket materials used by that manufacturer
>>> (but did no good for their air hoses).
>>> --scott
>>
>> honda used to sell a window rubber grease - will probably work.
>>
>>
> Sounds kinda like "Sil-Glide" from Napa.
>
> GW

sil-glide is absolutely the worst garbage i've ever used on rubber. it
only has a small percentage silicone in the first place, and the balance
of its composition will start to swell and degrade natural rubber over
time. i tried using it on sway bar bushings and within a few weeks, it
would stick to and lock the bar to the rubber so hard, you had to cut it
off.

maybe it was a useful product when it was first released, but it sure
isn't today. - unless you;re a shop where you just want to slap
something together quickly and you never see what happens to that car again.


--
fact check required