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Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?



 
 
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  #61  
Old January 10th 18, 05:43 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 84
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 8:01:48 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/9/2018 8:31 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> > On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:20:53 -0600,
> > AMuzi wrote:
> >
> >> You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
> >> http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota

> >
> > Wow. What a difference in prices from the Toyota dealer!
> > It's not half, it's not a third, or a fifth - it's one tenth the price!
> >
> > The only thing I need now is to know the OEM shoe friction ratings.
> >
> > I'd be perfectly happy with just-as-good friction pads as OEM at those
> > RockAuto prices of basically $12 per "something".
> >
> > I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
> > time zone) to figure out two critical things:
> >
> > 1. How many shoes come for $12 (one?, two? four?)
> > 2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?
> >
> > It's shocking that Toyota didn't know the friction rating, and RockAuto
> > doesn't know the friction rating based on their web page (admittedly good
> > prices).
> >
> > The friction rating is the *most* important thing about a brake shoe -
> > nothing else even matters if they are a worse friction rating than what you
> > want.
> >
> > And yet, the RockAuto page lists shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe
> > after shoe (Centric, Bosch, Wagner, ACDelco, RayBestos, PowerStop, Monroe,
> > BeckArnley, Bendix, etc.) and not one of them specifies the most important
> > thing about a brake shoe!
> >
> > WTF? It's impossible to buy brake pads or shoes without knowing the
> > friction rating. Who on earth can possibly compare two brake shoes without
> > that critical information?
> >
> > It's not like a brake shoe has any other major job but friction.
> >
> > The higher the number the stronger the friction (SAE J866a):
> > E = 0.25-0.35
> > F = 0.35-0.45
> > G = 0.45-0.55
> > H = 0.55-0.65
> > http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm
> >
> > Given RockAuto and Toyota don't seem to tell people the pad's friction
> > rating, I have to wonder ... do people really buy friction materials
> > knowing nothing about their cold & hot friction coefficients?
> >

>
>
> There are no asbestos brake linings available so everything
> else now is similar and adequate.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971


White Post Restorations whitepost.com can restore anything auto related.I once saw their ad years and years ago in Hemmings Motor News paper magazine. hemmings.com
Ads
  #62  
Old January 10th 18, 07:19 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Tekkie®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...


>
> Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and
> you will KNOW the spec. Then order the OEM quality parts from Rock,
> and if they are sub-standard, send them back. No rocket science. -
> unless you've ****ed off the dealership parts department and they
> won't do anything for you.
>
> I had customers that I'd refuse to do anything for because they were
> cheapassed pricks who you could never satisfy, and/or they were
> know-it-all know-nothings that argued with everything you told them.
>
> If you are that kind of person (and it's looking a bit that way
> because you don't listen to experience - you "know better" )- then
> good luck and it looks good on you.
>


I predicted this would happen...

--
Tekkie
  #63  
Old January 10th 18, 07:34 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Tekkie®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...


>
> "If scoring or light grooves cannot be removed by hand (with emery
> cloth) the drum MUST be refinished or replaced"
>
> There is NO ALLOWABLE AMOUNT OF GROOVING ALLOWED ON A DRUM when
> replacing friction m,aterial- PERIOD.
>
> read ALL of:
> http://www.aa1car.com/library/drum_brakes.htm
>


Hey Madman, have you checked the hoses yet? Don't bother with pix.

--
Tekkie
  #64  
Old January 10th 18, 07:52 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
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Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 14:19:19 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

> I predicted this would happen...


If simply responding truthfully, and providing referenced facts for my
response is bothering you, I'll drop out now.

I do thank those who provided advice, and I comprehended *all* the advice,
all of which was helpful.

Mostly to Clare Snyder, I appreciate his advice, born of experience, where
he is correct that pretty much any shoe that is OEM quality will work
unless they lie and, to Clare's point, the specs can lie too.

To Clare's point on the gouges, let's forget about that since the actual
spec from the manufacturer is almost impossible to find, and all that Clare
found essentially said zero (where to them, zero is 0.000080", which is
pretty darn close to zero, I agree).

Besides, my drums are fine so the gouges are just an aside where I merely
state that finding a manufacturer's spec on them for *rotors* is damn near
impossible (but it can be done) and when I did that, I was shocked at how
huge they were (for rotors!). I never found a spec for drums so I'll stick
with Clare's "zero" for now - which is fine.

Regarding the cylinders, I saw the post of "how would you know", where
that's a question that is actually insinuating more than it's asking - but
the direct answer is so simple that everyone already knows it.
1. Visual inspection
2. Mechanical inspection
3. Measurements

That's how you know *anything* needs to be repaired, so the question is
moot, as you can't do #3 or even much of #2 or #1 without taking it apart
and if you take it apart, you may as well rebuild it, which is likely what
I'll do.

Regarding the procedure, I think I have it down now, where all I need to do
is do it, so there won't be much (if anything) to report back until I buy
the pads, the repair kit, and do the job.

Thanks for all your advice and help, and please do realize that my only
differences with Clare are that he trusts certain things more than I do and
I trust certain things more than he does - but I understand and agree with
all his points.

I will chide anyone who puts "E" pads or shoes on a vehicle, and I always
have, since E is the friction coefficient of steel on steel (that's a
fact).

Nothing wrong with E pads if E is the OEM pad, but if the Oem pad is F, G,
or H, (most likely F though as G and H are less common), then putting an E
on is below the manufacturer's spec.

The nearest Toyota is 50 miles round trip, so I am on the phone with dealer
after dealer trying to get just one of them to open up a box to tell me
what is printed on the shoes. I'll report back what they tell me if I can
convince one of them to open a box and look.

Thanks! If I don't report back - it will be because I have no new
information for you. Thanks!
  #65  
Old January 10th 18, 08:00 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 14:34:51 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

> have you checked the hoses yet? Don't bother with pix.


Hi Tekkie,
Thanks for your advice.
Please see my detailed response to your other post.

As for hoses, I'm not trying to overhaul the vehicle - so I haven't checked
anything.

In fact, I wasn't even looking for brake issues, because the owner didn't
report any brake issues. I was simply rotating her tires for her, and since
I had the wheels off, I popped the pins out of the rotor to look at the
pads in front and I pulled the shoe off to look at the shoes in the rear.

So, my main goal is just to refresh the pads and shoes, but it's sound
advice when I do the job on a weekend to check her hoses and cable for
fraying.

So what I'll do, as per your helpful advice, is buy the pads and probably
the rebuild kit, and then when I do the job, I'll inspect from the front to
the rear all the cables and hoses.

I'll also order a liter of DOT4 fluid (even though it only specifies DOT3),
and I'll borrow her kid and replenish her entire brake fluid until it is
all new too.

Thanks for the advice.

Remember, none of us differ except that I seem to be caring more about
friction for friction materials while others care more about it being the
OEM spec - both of which aren't necessarily different.

However, if the OEM spec is E, I will likely refuse to put them on the
vehicle as I have never put anything less than F on any vehicle.
  #66  
Old January 10th 18, 08:10 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:31:18 -0000 (UTC),
Mad Roger wrote:

> I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
> time zone) to figure out two critical things:


I called Rock Auto but they don't do any customer support over the phone.
I called three Toyota dealers, all of whom refused to provide the
information printed on the pad.

One said "come down and look" but they're 50 miles round trip, so I'll try
at the computer first and let you know as the friction coefficient is the
most important job of friction materials.
  #67  
Old January 10th 18, 08:57 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:10:18 -0000 (UTC),
Mad Roger wrote:

>> I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
>> time zone) to figure out two critical things:

>
> I called Rock Auto but they don't do any customer support over the phone.
> I called three Toyota dealers, all of whom refused to provide the
> information printed on the pad.
>
> One said "come down and look" but they're 50 miles round trip, so I'll try
> at the computer first and let you know as the friction coefficient is the
> most important job of friction materials.


I found a clue to the J866a OEM friction coefficient on Amazon.
https://s18.postimg.org/wqilqasdl/to...n_material.jpg

I looked at the zoomable photos on Amazon, where out of about a score of
choices for the specific vehicle entered, 3 of the photos had the J866a
numbers visible which are legally mandated to be printed in every shoe.

All were SAE J866a FF friction ratings.
E = 0.25-0.35
F = 0.35-0.45 <== Amazon shoes for this vehicle are FF it seems
G = 0.45-0.55
H = 0.55-0.65
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

1. $16.09 Centric 110.05890 Drum Brake Shoe
https://www.amazon.com/Centric-110-0.../dp/B000C02PSS
2. $21.99 Power Stop B589 Autospecialty Brake Shoe
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Stop-B5.../dp/B003YO967W
3. $29.14 Bosch BS589 Blue Disc Brake Shoe Set
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-BS589-B.../dp/B00MY5UMK2

This doesn't prove the J866a friction coefficient for the Toyota OEM shoes
is FF, but it strongly implies that they are (if Amazon is correct that
these are OEM replacements).







  #68  
Old January 10th 18, 09:05 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:34:43 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 23:55:56 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>>>It's usually *hard* to find the scoring spec; it's a lot easier to find the
>>>thickness and runout specs, so I'm not saying it's an easy spec to find.

>>
>> not hard at all. here's one:
>> https://www.cbsparts.ca/admin/bullet...nd%20Rotor.pdf

>
>Um... you just proved my point.
>There's no spec for scoring and grooving in that PDF.


Because if there is scoring that cannot be polished out by hand the
drum MUST be refinished or replaced. There is no spec because there is
no tolerance for scoring or grooving. If you can feelit - it fails.
Period - end of discussion.
>And in *anything* on a car, there is no such thing as 0 tolerance. It just
>doesn't exist. 0 may be 0.090 or it might be 0.001 but it's never going to
>be 0 on anything.
>
>Specifically "free of scoring" is not a spec for how thick the scoring can
>be. (Yes, I know you *intimate* zero, but 0 inches is not the OEM spec, as
>I've seen OEM specs when I looked. They're hard to find, but they're
>nowhere near 0 inches).
>
>I'm not chastising you for finding that PDF, as I know it's nearly
>impossible to find any manufacturer's spec for how thick a groove or
>scoring can be before it's rejected - but when you find the spec (as I have
>in the past), you'll be shocked how deep and wide the grooves can be and
>still be within manufacturers' specs.
>


no - the spec you talk of is how deep the scoring can be and still
be correctable, not acceptable - you can machine uot deep scoring as
long as you don't excede the machining limit, which is generally
about 30 thou less than the discard limit - but on the heavy drums of
a 4-runner or land cruiser, is equal to the discard limit.
>> and another:
>> https://www.cbsparts.ca/admin/bullet...20Problems.pdf

>
>Um... this proves point also, which is that there is no spec in there for
>scoring or grooving other than 0, which is a ridiculous number that isn't
>the manufacturer's spec.
>
>Again, I'm not chastising you for finding out what I already knew to be the
>case, because I too looked and it's not easy to find a spec but when you
>find it, you'll be amazed how wide the grooves can be and still be within
>the manufacturers' specs.
>



Give me proof
>> see page 402 at :
>> https://books.google.ca/books?id=O01...limits&f=false

>
>Ch 8 Drum Brakes wasn't visible to me when I looked.
>
>> "If scoring or light grooves cannot be removed by hand (with emery
>> cloth) the drum MUST be refinished or replaced"

>
>Again, this proves my point. Unless you actually believe 0 is the spec, but
>I already know, from my past searches years ago, that it's huge, so it's
>not even close to zero.


Give me proof.

>
>> There is NO ALLOWABLE AMOUNT OF GROOVING ALLOWED ON A DRUM when
>> replacing friction m,aterial- PERIOD.

>
>I see your words and I believe it says that but it's not a manufacturer's
>spec


.. Because there IS no spec.
>
>Now, I did look it up only for the rotors because the vehicle didn't have
>drum brakes, so, maybe drums are different - but that doesn't change the
>fact that none of these are Toyota specs.


It IS different. There is NO spec for drums. There IS a spec for
rotors, but even there, the spec is for "in service" rotors - not for
pad replacement.
>
>> read ALL of:
>> http://www.aa1car.com/library/drum_brakes.htm

>
>Um. Again, it proves my point, saying only that "Minor pitting and scoring
>are acceptable as long as the grooves are not too deep and can be removed
>by resurfacing."




meansd you don't have to throw them away if they can be resurfaced
within spec. It does NOT mean they can be returned to service asis
with new friction material>
>As in the other PDFs, that implies 0 but it's just not 0 IMHO.
>I may be wrong for drums, because what I looked up was the manufacturer's
>spec for scoring of rotors - but the scoring limit for rotors is *huge* so
>why would drums be different?


Because drums are not rotors and you are reading the rotor spec weong.

>
>Maybe drums *are* zero (I'm not saying they're not); all I'm saying is that
>you and I both know that it's damn hard to find the *manufacturers* spec
>for the depth and width of a scoring that will fail a drum.
>


Because, as I said, there IS NO SPEC other than if it cannot be
polished out, it should be resurfaced, and you cannot reserface beyond
the machining limit, which is GENERALLY less than the in-service wear
limit
>To be clear, I'm not trying to argue with you as you found exactly what I
>found, which is that it's damn hard to find the manufacturers' spec for the
>size of scoring where it's *easy* to find their spec for the diameter and
>other things.
>
>That last article does say the following:
> "One way to tell if the surface finish is in the recommended range
> of 80 microinches or less"


And seldom is a tolerance plus or minus 50% - so that leaves you, at
the outside, with 120 mict=roinches with a "50%/-0 TOLERANCE.
>
>Ok. That's 80 millionths of an inch, or 0.000080 inches, but that's the
>overall "roughness" factor and not scoring per se. And, notice it's not 0
>simply because nothing in a vehicle is at 0 tolerance.
>
>My main comment stands which is that, at least for rotors, scoring has to
>be huge to fail a rotor, according to the specs I don't have now but that I
>unearthed in the past from a vehicle manufacturer.
>


With rotors directly exposed to road grit, stones, ets it is obvious
they WILL suffer some scoring in use, wheras drums, being enclosed
should not. WHAT is going to cause scoring in drums?????

And the spec for rotors is for in-service failure - NOT for tolerance
for replacing friction material.

If rotors are scored, you don't get full friction surface engagement,
and the "high spots" overheat as they wear in - then when wornin the
surface area increases by the annular surface of the groove, and the
friction co-efficient of the pads to rough rotors is different than
the co-efficient oif friction with proiperly machined rotors (and
glazed rotors are different again)

For someone so fixated on friction ratings, you are certainly missing
the point on damaged rotors and drums, which have SIGNIFICANT effects
on the friction effects of the brakes.

I'm going to step right out and say it - you are an IDIOT if you
cannot grasp the significance of what has been said, bothabout
friction materials and rotor/drum condition.
>Whether rotor scoring is similar is unknown to me but it's a good question
>of what Toyota things is a scoring limit. But really this is theoretical
>since I'm keeping the drums as they're in fine shape with no "visible"
>scoring.

Your drums did look OK in the pictures. Now just buy the OEM SPEC
linings and get it done!!!! - and before you install the drums on the
new shoes DEGLAZE THEM WITH 80 GRIT ABRASIVE PAPER tocondition the
surface to properly break in the new friction material.
  #69  
Old January 10th 18, 09:35 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 449
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 1/10/2018 2:10 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:31:18 -0000 (UTC),
> Mad Roger wrote:
>
>> I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
>> time zone) to figure out two critical things:

>
> I called Rock Auto but they don't do any customer support over the phone.
> I called three Toyota dealers, all of whom refused to provide the
> information printed on the pad.
>
> One said "come down and look" but they're 50 miles round trip, so I'll try
> at the computer first and let you know as the friction coefficient is the
> most important job of friction materials.
>


Some garden vegetables concentrate trace elements to a
possibly significant degree. That said, the guy who calls a
restaurant asking for today's spectrograph analysis of the
salad gets a click to dial tone. And rightfully so.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #70  
Old January 10th 18, 09:38 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Tekkie®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

Mad Roger posted for all of us...

> 1. $16.09 Centric 110.05890 Drum Brake Shoe
> https://www.amazon.com/Centric-110-0.../dp/B000C02PSS
> 2. $21.99 Power Stop B589 Autospecialty Brake Shoe
> https://www.amazon.com/Power-Stop-B5.../dp/B003YO967W
> 3. $29.14 Bosch BS589 Blue Disc Brake Shoe Set
> https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-BS589-B.../dp/B00MY5UMK2
>
> This doesn't prove the J866a friction coefficient for the Toyota OEM shoes
> is FF, but it strongly implies that they are (if Amazon is correct that
> these are OEM replacements).


Hmmm, all this have a 589 part number, what conclusion can one draw?

--
Tekkie
 




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