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Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?



 
 
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  #51  
Old January 10th 18, 05:28 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:34:20 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:04:15 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> You do NOT need to know the ratings.

>
>I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy
>from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who
>works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction
>ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.
>


No, your best friend whoworks at the auto parts store may be as
clueless as you are. BUY OEM SPEC PARTS and you can't go wrong.
>But let's face it.
>A brake shoe has one and only one primary job.
>And that's friction.
>
>If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're
>fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction
>coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.


OEM SPEC parts WILL be equal to or excedingOEM specs.
>
>Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story
>(e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM
>friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.
>


With pads you worry about dust - not so with drums/shoes.
>You can get *lucky*.
>But you are just guessing.


Soare you.
>
>> Buy their OEM quality shoes and
>> the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede
>> OEM spec - which is all you need or want.

>
>We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which,
>by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if
>you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a
>brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.


No, they will sell you what you are willing to pay for. If you want
"economy" friction, they willsell you "economy" friction - which M<AY
have the same friction characteristics, but only last 50,000 miles, or
30,000 instead of 175000.
>
>Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the
>friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find
>(if the shoe is in your hands).

Then ask to see the factory shoe at the dealer and read the rating.

The "monroe premium" shoes I have "on the shelf" for my ranger are EE
on all 4 shoes.
The "certified" semi-metallic pads I have "onthe shelf" for the ranger
are EF


Since the rear brakes basically "go along for the ride" unless you
are hauling a load, the friction rating isn't TERRIBLY critical anyway
-
>
>> They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen
>> shoes sold individually.

>
>I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called
>the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty
>bucks for a set of four.
>
>The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at
>about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.


LikeI said - stupidly cheap - not worth rebuilding unless the cyls are
not available.
>
>>>2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

>>
>> You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.

>
>Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the
>friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.
>


Didn't say you shouldn't. Just LISTEN to what I'm saying. BUY OE#M
SPEC and you GET OEM SPEC.

Listen to one of the most experienced wrenches on this newsgroup.
I've wrenched, I've been service manager, and I've taught the trade
at both secondary school and trade levels. Since 1969.
>In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing
>the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I
>would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction
>rating.
>
>> That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know
>> the rating.

>
>I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the
>friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating,
>whatever that is.


ANd if you buy OEM SPEC aftermarket p[arts, they will br too. What
do you not understand about OEM SPEC????
>
>So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would
>be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.
>
>If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the
>friction rating first and foremost.
>

No, you choose OEM SPEC from a TRUSTED MANUFACTURER - no matter who
you buy from.

>It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.
>
>> If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.

>
>That is true. If that is true that is true.
>It's not always true even if they say it's true.
>I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.


And who says the friction material is accurately marked???? You have
no idea where the friction material came from, and if it meets the
spec stamped on it. It is almost CERTAINLY sourced fromChina - and
likely assembled on the shoe in China, regardless of the brand, and
China will counterfeit anything, given the chance. This is where a
"trusted manufacturer" comes in, as they do "quality control" and
assure the product meets spec.

You could have FF stamped on a thich chunk of cardboard on an "xyz"
brand part and it might not even meet the loweast spec.





>
>> They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality
>> shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric,
>> Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard
>> good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe -
>> and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's
>> just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself -
>> but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.

>
>You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name,
>it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you
>know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all
>sorts of **** just to get more money for the same thing.
>
>Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out
>who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g.,
>paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).
>
>Branding is bull**** for the most part.
>
>What I care about are friction ratings.


They don't mean SQUAT if you can't trust the brand. See where I'm
coming from???
>
>After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as
>dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that
>information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy
>but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).


ANd over half the "enthusiasts" don't know **** from shinola - they
just listen to other "enthusiasts" or "armchair experts"
>
>The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.



>
>After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other
>stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's
>unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.
>


It's printed on the friction material by the manufacturer - can you
trust the manufacturer?????
If so, trust the manufacturer to provide OEM quality.
If not, the ratings don't mean ****.
>Otherwise you're just guessing.
>


Like I said - BUY QUALITY and you are not guessing any more than you
are doing it your way.
>> Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups
>> where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating
>> of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and
>> never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track"
>> thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better
>> shoes.

>
>I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and
>they didn't even know it.


Correct - there was no difference undernormal driving conditions -
they likely didn't wear the same, but they stopped the car at all
legal speeds under normal load conditions
>
>They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads
>didn't even meet OEM specs.
>
>The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about
>the same price that were FF or even GG.
>


They bopught "economy" pads - and the whiz-bang enthusiast pads may
have been no better than what they bought,
>I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction.
>Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.




>
>There's a *reason* for that.
>You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe.
>



Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and
you will KNOW the spec. Then order the OEM quality parts from Rock,
and if they are sub-standard, send them back. No rocket science. -
unless you've ****ed off the dealership parts department and they
won't do anything for you.

I had customers that I'd refuse to do anything for because they were
cheapassed pricks who you could never satisfy, and/or they were
know-it-all know-nothings that argued with everything you told them.

If you are that kind of person (and it's looking a bit that way
because you don't listen to experience - you "know better" )- then
good luck and it looks good on you.
Ads
  #52  
Old January 10th 18, 06:08 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Xeno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 207
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 10/01/2018 6:38 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 11:16:50 PM UTC-10, Xeno wrote:
>> You get the feeling this fellow has been here before, in many guises?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Xeno

>
> To have an aptitude for mechanical work, you really have to start out young by taking stuff apart. That's how you get a feel for the task. I don't think that it's a job suitable for people that have mostly book learning. They don't have a feel for the task...
>

Yep, a mechanical aptitude is a necessity. I spent 50 years in the
trade. That said, I had the practical experience but I also had the book
learning. Having both helps.

--

Xeno
  #54  
Old January 10th 18, 06:11 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Xeno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 207
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 10/01/2018 7:44 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:58 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
>> parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
>> what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
>> are paying to have it done)

>
> At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".


You're shopping in all the wrong places.
>
> Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and
> the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.
>
> Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.
>
> I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction
> ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.
>



--

Xeno
  #55  
Old January 10th 18, 06:12 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Xeno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 207
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 10/01/2018 8:01 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 15:51:35 -0500,
> Tekkie+AK4- wrote:
>
>> I didn't look at any of the pix. It should be ok if not scored or bell
>> mouthed or other problems.

>
> The drums are perfectly fine in that they have 2mm to spare even after 175K
> miles on the original drums.
>
> As you're probably aware, scoring has to be huge to fail a rotor or drum
> (really huge when you look at the specs, it's amazing how huge).
>
> The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.
>
> I'm going to look for a rebuild kit because these cylinders are in great
> shape from the looks of it (and I already rebuilt the brake master cylinder
> which was also in great shape).
>

Are you *qualified* to judge?

--

Xeno
  #56  
Old January 10th 18, 06:16 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Xeno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 207
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 10/01/2018 1:53 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 20:44:47 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:58 -0500,
>> Clare Snyder wrote:
>>
>>> Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
>>> parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
>>> what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
>>> are paying to have it done)

>>
>> At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".
>>
>> Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and
>> the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.
>>
>> Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.
>>
>> I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction
>> ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.

> You do not need to know the ratings - just buy "oem replacement" -
> they WILL be the right stuff. (there are cheaper qualities available -
> usually sold as "economy") Premium shoes and oem replacement will
> both be VERY close toidentical. In almost 50yuears as a mechanic
> Inever once had to "match" friction materials for "stock" brake
> replacement.
>

Someone is way too anal to be a mechanic.

--

Xeno
  #57  
Old January 10th 18, 06:18 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Xeno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 207
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 10/01/2018 2:34 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:04:15 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> You do NOT need to know the ratings.

>
> I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy
> from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who
> works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction
> ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.
>
> But let's face it.
> A brake shoe has one and only one primary job.
> And that's friction.
>
> If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're
> fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction
> coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.
>
> Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story
> (e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM
> friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.
>
> You can get *lucky*.
> But you are just guessing.
>
>> Buy their OEM quality shoes and
>> the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede
>> OEM spec - which is all you need or want.

>
> We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which,
> by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if
> you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a
> brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.
>
> Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the
> friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find
> (if the shoe is in your hands).
>
>> They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen
>> shoes sold individually.

>
> I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called
> the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty
> bucks for a set of four.
>
> The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at
> about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.
>
>>> 2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

>>
>> You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.

>
> Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the
> friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.
>
> In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing
> the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I
> would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction
> rating.
>
>> That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know
>> the rating.

>
> I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the
> friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating,
> whatever that is.
>
> So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would
> be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.
>
> If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the
> friction rating first and foremost.
>
> It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.
>
>> If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.

>
> That is true. If that is true that is true.
> It's not always true even if they say it's true.
> I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.
>
>> They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality
>> shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric,
>> Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard
>> good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe -
>> and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's
>> just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself -
>> but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.

>
> You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name,
> it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you
> know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all
> sorts of **** just to get more money for the same thing.
>
> Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out
> who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g.,
> paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).
>
> Branding is bull**** for the most part.
>
> What I care about are friction ratings.
>
> After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as
> dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that
> information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy
> but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).
>
> The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.
>
> After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other
> stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's
> unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.
>
> Otherwise you're just guessing.
>
>> Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups
>> where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating
>> of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and
>> never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track"
>> thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better
>> shoes.

>
> I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and
> they didn't even know it.
>
> They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads
> didn't even meet OEM specs.
>
> The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about
> the same price that were FF or even GG.
>
> I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction.
> Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.
>
> There's a *reason* for that.
> You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe.
>
>

Best you toddle off and pay those inflated prices. THE OEM Toyota ones
will be exactly the same friction rating as the ones you are replacing.

--

Xeno
  #58  
Old January 10th 18, 08:34 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 00:28:05 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> No, they will sell you what you are willing to pay for. If you want
> "economy" friction, they willsell you "economy" friction - which M<AY
> have the same friction characteristics, but only last 50,000 miles, or
> 30,000 instead of 175000.


There is no such thing as OEM quality without having the OEM specs to
compare against. Otherwise it's just a gimmick.

There's no way for you to know if it's OEM quality if it's not to OEM
specs. Just because they *say* it in a billion web sites, doesn't mean it
is.

Specs are fact.
Marketing words are bull****.

> The "monroe premium" shoes I have "on the shelf" for my ranger are EE
> on all 4 shoes.


EE sucks. Steel on steel has a coefficient of E. Seriously. Look it up.

> The "certified" semi-metallic pads I have "onthe shelf" for the ranger
> are EF


Again, E is atrocious. Steel on stell is E. Look it up.
F is good.

Unfortunatly, there is a HUGE RANGE between E and F and even within E and F
themselves. Such is the spec.

But I'll tell you that I've never once in my life put a crappy E pad on any
disc brake. E is absolutely horrifically terrible. It's no better than
steel on steel.

F is just getting started.

I've never done drum brakes before though.

> Since the rear brakes basically "go along for the ride" unless you
> are hauling a load, the friction rating isn't TERRIBLY critical anyway


This may very well be true because I must have replaced the fronts a few
times already on this vehicle so I don't disagree with you. I'm going to do
the front pads also, so I am looking for what their friction ratings are.

> LikeI said - stupidly cheap - not worth rebuilding unless the cyls are
> not available.


The main problem with cylinders is that if I don't go OEM, I won't know the
quality of the cylinders. So I may end up putting worse cylinders in, when
their may be nothing wrong with the current ones.

Then again, maybe all cylinders are just fine in terms of quality. I don't
know. That's the homework I need to do as I've never done drums before.

> Didn't say you shouldn't. Just LISTEN to what I'm saying. BUY OE#M
> SPEC and you GET OEM SPEC.


We don't disagree. We just don't agree on what you trust & what I trust.

To me, IMHO, there is no such thing as "OEM SPEC". It's marketing bull****.

Maybe it's oem spec. Maybe it's not. Who is to say?
You trust marketing more than I do.

I trust *real* specs. Like the friction coefficient.
That's a real spec.
Not marketing bull****.

Why do you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM
spec *is* the OEM spec?

> Listen to one of the most experienced wrenches on this newsgroup.
> I've wrenched, I've been service manager, and I've taught the trade
> at both secondary school and trade levels. Since 1969.


I don't disagree with anything you've said, and, in fact, I agree with
almost everything you've said. Our disagreements are only in how we
interpret things like scoring and what you term "oem spec".

I completely comprehend what you're saying.
The main difference is that I trust specs more than you seem to.
And you seem to trust what I think is marketing bull**** more than I do.

It's not a disagreement in principle as if it truly was OEM spec then it's
OEM spec. I get that - but I don't believe it just because they said it.

Have you seen oil filters taken apart? I have.
They *all* meet OEM spec.
But some are better than others.
A lot better.

Why would you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM
spec *is* the OEM spec?

> ANd if you buy OEM SPEC aftermarket p[arts, they will br too. What
> do you not understand about OEM SPEC????


There is nothing you could ever say to me that I don't comprehend.
Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Really.

It's not a matter of comprehension.

It's a matter of trust in marketing bull**** or not.
You trust what I call marketing bull**** much more than I trust it.

That's the only difference that I can see where we disagree.

If I buy a food that says "all natural", what the **** does that mean?
If it says "more doctors recommend it", what the **** does that mean?

Do you know that acetominophen (aka Tylenol) is freaking dangerous?
The LD50 on Tylenol is so ****ing close to the therapeutic dose that it's
dangerous stuff compared to Aspirin.

Yet there is the J&J campaign to convince idiot consumers that "more
doctors recommend tylenol" which is a bull**** marketing statistic.

Same here with the "meets OEM specs" bull****.
Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.

What matters is the OEM spec.
Not the marketing bull****.

We don't disagree.
The only place we disagree is that you can't believe anyone would not
believe in the marketing bull****.

SO you say I don't "comprehend" but I do comprehend.
It's trust. Not comprehension where we differ.

Why would you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM
spec *is* the OEM spec?

> No, you choose OEM SPEC from a TRUSTED MANUFACTURER - no matter who
> you buy from.


Let's drop this as I AGREE with you that if it truly is "oem spec" then
"Oem spec" is fine.

Did you know Apple said that their phones were X Ghz but they halved that
in a year? Companies don't always tell the truth.

You seem to believe them.
I don't.

That's the only difference. Why do you deny me the right to double check
that what they call an OEM spec *is* the OEM spec?

> And who says the friction material is accurately marked????


They have to meet the standard and I "presume" it's enforced by law.
Maybe it's not - but I presume that the friction rating is correct.


> You have
> no idea where the friction material came from, and if it meets the
> spec stamped on it. It is almost CERTAINLY sourced fromChina - and
> likely assembled on the shoe in China, regardless of the brand, and
> China will counterfeit anything, given the chance. This is where a
> "trusted manufacturer" comes in, as they do "quality control" and
> assure the product meets spec.


What's odd is you believe a marketing bull**** claim of "meets oem spec"
without it saying what that spec is, and yet you question a government
mandated friction test under specified circumstances.

I think that's odd in that it's reversed from normal logic.
There's nothing wrong with your logic - as it has to do with trust.

You trust marketing more than you trust the government mandate.
I'm the opposite on trust.

I trust the friction test, specifically the SAE J866A test procedu
https://netrider.net.au/threads/unde...ratings.88551/

Here's a general description of the friction ratings CDEFGH
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-...ad-technology/

> You could have FF stamped on a thich chunk of cardboard on an "xyz"
> brand part and it might not even meet the loweast spec.


What's odd is that you don't trust a government mandated standard test, but
at the same time, you trust a mere marketing term on a web site.

That's fine. You're allowed to trust marketing more than government
mandated specs - but it's the opposite for me on trust.

We only differ in what we trust.
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

I can't run my own tests like the police did he
https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf

> They don't mean SQUAT if you can't trust the brand. See where I'm
> coming from???


The brand is meaningless.
What matters is what's *inside* the oil filter.
The brand is just the paint on the outside.

We differ greatly in whom we trust.

I trust in specs.
You trust in brands.

Neither one of us is wrong - we just trust differently.

> ANd over half the "enthusiasts" don't know **** from shinola - they
> just listen to other "enthusiasts" or "armchair experts"


I agree with you that the 'boy racers' out there who think seafoam is a
solution from God himself don't know much - but when it comes to "dusting",
it's pretty reliable when everyone with the same make and model and year
you have says that a certain Jurid pad will dust while the PBR pad won't
dust (where PBR and Axxis are the same pad - it's only the marketing paint
on the outside of the box that allows them to sell Axxis pads at a higher
price than PBR).

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I personally called the marketing organization for Axxis who,
interestingly, has a different channel than PBR (even though they're the
*same* pads!), and they gave me the full scoop.

Marketing bull**** 101.

You are not wrong in trusting marketing far more than I do, and I am not
wrong in trusting in actual measured specs more so that marketing words.

> It's printed on the friction material by the manufacturer - can you
> trust the manufacturer?????


What's funny is that you don't trust a government mandated SAE test, which
has clear conditions, while you do trust some blurb in thousands upon
thousands of web sites to be correct.

I find that odd but there's nothing wrong with how you trust web site
blurbs more than I trust them, nor that you trust government mandated SAE
tests less than I trust them.

It's all how you and I handle trust.

You trust marketing far more than I do.

I *know* that a PBR pad is far less money than an Axxis pad and yet,
they're exactly the same pad - only marketed differently.

Wanna know something funny?
They both have the same markings on the side.

They *have* to have the same markings.
It's the law.

The one place they can't lie, is in the markings.

> If so, trust the manufacturer to provide OEM quality.
> If not, the ratings don't mean ****.


You trust marketing more than I do.

> Like I said - BUY QUALITY and you are not guessing any more than you
> are doing it your way.


We don't disagree other than you think E is quality and I know E is almost
as bad as it gets. E is no better than steel on steel for friction.

> Correct - there was no difference undernormal driving conditions -
> they likely didn't wear the same, but they stopped the car at all
> legal speeds under normal load conditions


E is no better than steel on steel.
Look it up.
I'm not joking.

> They bopught "economy" pads - and the whiz-bang enthusiast pads may
> have been no better than what they bought,


Anyone who says "economy" or "performance" pads is falling prey to
marketing bull****.

There is no such thing as an "economy" pad.

There is a pad that has a certain spec and that's it.
If you pay a lot for it or if you pay a little for it, the spec didn't
change.

Remember, the "performance" Axxis pad is the *same* pad as the economy
"PBR" pad.

It's all marketing bull****.
The numbers on the pad are *exactly* the same because they have to be.
They're the same pad.

> Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and
> you will KNOW the spec.


You don't know the Toyota dealer in my town.
They're assholes. They're the worst.
They'd KILL me if I told them I just wanted to *look* at their pads.
I'm serious (well, not about killing me).
But they'd tell me to go take a hike.

Only at a local auto parts store would they bother, but only if they don't
have to open the package in a destructive way.

Anyway, I appreciate your advice but that doesn't mean I trust what you
trust which are the words "meets oem" more than I trust actual facts (which
are measured and tested friction ratings).

We each put trust in different things:
a. You trust marketing more than specs
b. I trust specs more than marketing

Neither of us is right or wrong - it's just we differ in whom we trust.
  #59  
Old January 10th 18, 08:34 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 23:55:56 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

>>It's usually *hard* to find the scoring spec; it's a lot easier to find the
>>thickness and runout specs, so I'm not saying it's an easy spec to find.

>
> not hard at all. here's one:
> https://www.cbsparts.ca/admin/bullet...nd%20Rotor.pdf


Um... you just proved my point.
There's no spec for scoring and grooving in that PDF.

And in *anything* on a car, there is no such thing as 0 tolerance. It just
doesn't exist. 0 may be 0.090 or it might be 0.001 but it's never going to
be 0 on anything.

Specifically "free of scoring" is not a spec for how thick the scoring can
be. (Yes, I know you *intimate* zero, but 0 inches is not the OEM spec, as
I've seen OEM specs when I looked. They're hard to find, but they're
nowhere near 0 inches).

I'm not chastising you for finding that PDF, as I know it's nearly
impossible to find any manufacturer's spec for how thick a groove or
scoring can be before it's rejected - but when you find the spec (as I have
in the past), you'll be shocked how deep and wide the grooves can be and
still be within manufacturers' specs.

> and another:
> https://www.cbsparts.ca/admin/bullet...20Problems.pdf


Um... this proves point also, which is that there is no spec in there for
scoring or grooving other than 0, which is a ridiculous number that isn't
the manufacturer's spec.

Again, I'm not chastising you for finding out what I already knew to be the
case, because I too looked and it's not easy to find a spec but when you
find it, you'll be amazed how wide the grooves can be and still be within
the manufacturers' specs.

> see page 402 at :
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=O01...limits&f=false


Ch 8 Drum Brakes wasn't visible to me when I looked.

> "If scoring or light grooves cannot be removed by hand (with emery
> cloth) the drum MUST be refinished or replaced"


Again, this proves my point. Unless you actually believe 0 is the spec, but
I already know, from my past searches years ago, that it's huge, so it's
not even close to zero.

> There is NO ALLOWABLE AMOUNT OF GROOVING ALLOWED ON A DRUM when
> replacing friction m,aterial- PERIOD.


I see your words and I believe it says that but it's not a manufacturer's
spec.

Now, I did look it up only for the rotors because the vehicle didn't have
drum brakes, so, maybe drums are different - but that doesn't change the
fact that none of these are Toyota specs.

> read ALL of:
> http://www.aa1car.com/library/drum_brakes.htm


Um. Again, it proves my point, saying only that "Minor pitting and scoring
are acceptable as long as the grooves are not too deep and can be removed
by resurfacing."

As in the other PDFs, that implies 0 but it's just not 0 IMHO.
I may be wrong for drums, because what I looked up was the manufacturer's
spec for scoring of rotors - but the scoring limit for rotors is *huge* so
why would drums be different?

Maybe drums *are* zero (I'm not saying they're not); all I'm saying is that
you and I both know that it's damn hard to find the *manufacturers* spec
for the depth and width of a scoring that will fail a drum.

To be clear, I'm not trying to argue with you as you found exactly what I
found, which is that it's damn hard to find the manufacturers' spec for the
size of scoring where it's *easy* to find their spec for the diameter and
other things.

That last article does say the following:
"One way to tell if the surface finish is in the recommended range
of 80 microinches or less"

Ok. That's 80 millionths of an inch, or 0.000080 inches, but that's the
overall "roughness" factor and not scoring per se. And, notice it's not 0
simply because nothing in a vehicle is at 0 tolerance.

My main comment stands which is that, at least for rotors, scoring has to
be huge to fail a rotor, according to the specs I don't have now but that I
unearthed in the past from a vehicle manufacturer.

Whether rotor scoring is similar is unknown to me but it's a good question
of what Toyota things is a scoring limit. But really this is theoretical
since I'm keeping the drums as they're in fine shape with no "visible"
scoring.
  #60  
Old January 10th 18, 02:01 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 449
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 1/9/2018 8:31 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:20:53 -0600,
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
>> http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota

>
> Wow. What a difference in prices from the Toyota dealer!
> It's not half, it's not a third, or a fifth - it's one tenth the price!
>
> The only thing I need now is to know the OEM shoe friction ratings.
>
> I'd be perfectly happy with just-as-good friction pads as OEM at those
> RockAuto prices of basically $12 per "something".
>
> I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
> time zone) to figure out two critical things:
>
> 1. How many shoes come for $12 (one?, two? four?)
> 2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?
>
> It's shocking that Toyota didn't know the friction rating, and RockAuto
> doesn't know the friction rating based on their web page (admittedly good
> prices).
>
> The friction rating is the *most* important thing about a brake shoe -
> nothing else even matters if they are a worse friction rating than what you
> want.
>
> And yet, the RockAuto page lists shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe
> after shoe (Centric, Bosch, Wagner, ACDelco, RayBestos, PowerStop, Monroe,
> BeckArnley, Bendix, etc.) and not one of them specifies the most important
> thing about a brake shoe!
>
> WTF? It's impossible to buy brake pads or shoes without knowing the
> friction rating. Who on earth can possibly compare two brake shoes without
> that critical information?
>
> It's not like a brake shoe has any other major job but friction.
>
> The higher the number the stronger the friction (SAE J866a):
> E = 0.25-0.35
> F = 0.35-0.45
> G = 0.45-0.55
> H = 0.55-0.65
> http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm
>
> Given RockAuto and Toyota don't seem to tell people the pad's friction
> rating, I have to wonder ... do people really buy friction materials
> knowing nothing about their cold & hot friction coefficients?
>



There are no asbestos brake linings available so everything
else now is similar and adequate.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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