A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto newsgroups » Technology
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old January 9th 18, 11:20 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 449
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 1/9/2018 2:44 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:58 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
>> parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
>> what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
>> are paying to have it done)

>
> At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".
>
> Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and
> the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.
>
> Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.
>
> I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction
> ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.
>


You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota

Then again, you might not.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Ads
  #42  
Old January 10th 18, 12:28 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
dsi1[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 297
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 1:20:59 PM UTC-10, AMuzi wrote:
>
> You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
> http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota
>
> Then again, you might not.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971


It should cost less than a hundred bucks for shoes, cylinders, and hardware.. New drums would cost maybe a little over a hundred more. You can save a lot of dough by doing the job yourself. I enjoy taking my time while working on brakes - by myself. Less when somebody is "helping."
  #43  
Old January 10th 18, 02:31 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:20:53 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:

> You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
> http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota


Wow. What a difference in prices from the Toyota dealer!
It's not half, it's not a third, or a fifth - it's one tenth the price!

The only thing I need now is to know the OEM shoe friction ratings.

I'd be perfectly happy with just-as-good friction pads as OEM at those
RockAuto prices of basically $12 per "something".

I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
time zone) to figure out two critical things:

1. How many shoes come for $12 (one?, two? four?)
2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

It's shocking that Toyota didn't know the friction rating, and RockAuto
doesn't know the friction rating based on their web page (admittedly good
prices).

The friction rating is the *most* important thing about a brake shoe -
nothing else even matters if they are a worse friction rating than what you
want.

And yet, the RockAuto page lists shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe
after shoe (Centric, Bosch, Wagner, ACDelco, RayBestos, PowerStop, Monroe,
BeckArnley, Bendix, etc.) and not one of them specifies the most important
thing about a brake shoe!

WTF? It's impossible to buy brake pads or shoes without knowing the
friction rating. Who on earth can possibly compare two brake shoes without
that critical information?

It's not like a brake shoe has any other major job but friction.

The higher the number the stronger the friction (SAE J866a):
E = 0.25-0.35
F = 0.35-0.45
G = 0.45-0.55
H = 0.55-0.65
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

Given RockAuto and Toyota don't seem to tell people the pad's friction
rating, I have to wonder ... do people really buy friction materials
knowing nothing about their cold & hot friction coefficients?
  #44  
Old January 10th 18, 02:48 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 21:01:05 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 15:51:35 -0500,
> Tekkie+AK4- wrote:
>
>> I didn't look at any of the pix. It should be ok if not scored or bell
>> mouthed or other problems.

>
>The drums are perfectly fine in that they have 2mm to spare even after 175K
>miles on the original drums.
>


I have 358000km on the original rear brakes on my Ranger - and the
shoes had over half lining left when I last checked them about 15000km
ago. I've had the new shoes for 5 years, and the original owner had
them for 4 years before he sold me the truck - - -
>As you're probably aware, scoring has to be huge to fail a rotor or drum
>(really huge when you look at the specs, it's amazing how huge).


Actually it does not take a LOT of scoring to fail a drum - requiring
it to be turned. Then there are two different "fail" measurements -
there is a max wear and a max turn. If it is worn past a certain limit
it must be replaced, and there is a limit you can turn it to - usually
2 different measurements.
>
>The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.


I believe thre are quality aftermarket sources at a fair bit less.
>
>I'm going to look for a rebuild kit because these cylinders are in great
>shape from the looks of it (and I already rebuilt the brake master cylinder
>which was also in great shape).

  #45  
Old January 10th 18, 02:53 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 20:44:47 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:58 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
>> parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
>> what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
>> are paying to have it done)

>
>At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".
>
>Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and
>the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.
>
>Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.
>
>I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction
>ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.

You do not need to know the ratings - just buy "oem replacement" -
they WILL be the right stuff. (there are cheaper qualities available -
usually sold as "economy") Premium shoes and oem replacement will
both be VERY close toidentical. In almost 50yuears as a mechanic
Inever once had to "match" friction materials for "stock" brake
replacement.
  #46  
Old January 10th 18, 03:04 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:31:18 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:20:53 -0600,
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
>> http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota

>
>Wow. What a difference in prices from the Toyota dealer!
>It's not half, it's not a third, or a fifth - it's one tenth the price!
>
>The only thing I need now is to know the OEM shoe friction ratings.
>


You do NOT need to know the ratings. Buy their OEM quality shoes and
the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede
OEM spec - which is all you need or want.
>I'd be perfectly happy with just-as-good friction pads as OEM at those
>RockAuto prices of basically $12 per "something".
>
>I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
>time zone) to figure out two critical things:
>
>1. How many shoes come for $12 (one?, two? four?)


They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen
shoes sold individually.
>2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?


You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.
>
>It's shocking that Toyota didn't know the friction rating, and RockAuto
>doesn't know the friction rating based on their web page (admittedly good
>prices).


That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know
the rating.
>
>The friction rating is the *most* important thing about a brake shoe -
>nothing else even matters if they are a worse friction rating than what you
>want.


If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.
>
>And yet, the RockAuto page lists shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe
>after shoe (Centric, Bosch, Wagner, ACDelco, RayBestos, PowerStop, Monroe,
>BeckArnley, Bendix, etc.) and not one of them specifies the most important
>thing about a brake shoe!


They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality
shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric,
Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard
good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe -
and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's
just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself -
but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.
>
>WTF? It's impossible to buy brake pads or shoes without knowing the
>friction rating. Who on earth can possibly compare two brake shoes without
>that critical information?
>
>It's not like a brake shoe has any other major job but friction.
>
>The higher the number the stronger the friction (SAE J866a):
>E = 0.25-0.35
>F = 0.35-0.45
>G = 0.45-0.55
>H = 0.55-0.65
>http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm
>
>Given RockAuto and Toyota don't seem to tell people the pad's friction
>rating, I have to wonder ... do people really buy friction materials
>knowing nothing about their cold & hot friction coefficients?



Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups
where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating
of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and
never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track"
thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better
shoes.
  #47  
Old January 10th 18, 03:34 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:04:15 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> You do NOT need to know the ratings.


I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy
from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who
works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction
ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.

But let's face it.
A brake shoe has one and only one primary job.
And that's friction.

If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're
fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction
coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.

Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story
(e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM
friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.

You can get *lucky*.
But you are just guessing.

> Buy their OEM quality shoes and
> the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede
> OEM spec - which is all you need or want.


We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which,
by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if
you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a
brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.

Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the
friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find
(if the shoe is in your hands).

> They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen
> shoes sold individually.


I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called
the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty
bucks for a set of four.

The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at
about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.

>>2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

>
> You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.


Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the
friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.

In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing
the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I
would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction
rating.

> That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know
> the rating.


I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the
friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating,
whatever that is.

So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would
be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.

If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the
friction rating first and foremost.

It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.

> If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.


That is true. If that is true that is true.
It's not always true even if they say it's true.
I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.

> They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality
> shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric,
> Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard
> good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe -
> and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's
> just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself -
> but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.


You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name,
it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you
know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all
sorts of **** just to get more money for the same thing.

Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out
who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g.,
paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).

Branding is bull**** for the most part.

What I care about are friction ratings.

After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as
dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that
information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy
but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).

The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.

After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other
stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's
unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.

Otherwise you're just guessing.

> Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups
> where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating
> of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and
> never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track"
> thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better
> shoes.


I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and
they didn't even know it.

They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads
didn't even meet OEM specs.

The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about
the same price that were FF or even GG.

I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction.
Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.

There's a *reason* for that.
You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe.

  #48  
Old January 10th 18, 03:34 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 21:48:57 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> I have 358000km on the original rear brakes on my Ranger - and the
> shoes had over half lining left when I last checked them about 15000km
> ago. I've had the new shoes for 5 years, and the original owner had
> them for 4 years before he sold me the truck - - -


I don't disagree with your experience now that I've done some homework.
It's amazing how *long* brake shoes last, at least on the rear.

I suspect I'd get double the mileage that I saw if the Toyota brakes would
only wear evenly. Most people on the Toyota forums get more than 175K miles
but this truck was driven in very hilly country for more than a decade.

> Actually it does not take a LOT of scoring to fail a drum - requiring
> it to be turned. Then there are two different "fail" measurements -
> there is a max wear and a max turn. If it is worn past a certain limit
> it must be replaced, and there is a limit you can turn it to - usually
> 2 different measurements.


The problem here is that *none* of us are referencing an actual
manufacturer's specification.

I looked up the specs for a scored rotor when I had a Lexus LS 400 in the
early nineties where I was shocked at the spec. As I recall, it was thicker
than a dime, and maybe even a dime and a half as I recall, for it to fail
the rotor.

I didn't look up drums at the time (it had disc brakes all around), but I
think we're all talking out of our asses (me included!) unless and until we
dig up a real spec from the manufacturer.

It's usually *hard* to find the scoring spec; it's a lot easier to find the
thickness and runout specs, so I'm not saying it's an easy spec to find.

>>
>>The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.

>
> I believe thre are quality aftermarket sources at a fair bit less.


I agree.

The RockAuto site someone quoted had an axle for a lot less than twenty
bucks, so Toyota is about ten times aftermarket.

I called the local parts store and they have FF friction-rated shoes (I
asked them to read me what it says on the shoe) for $17 per axle.

At that price, it's not worth shopping around by price - but only for the
friction rating.

I haven't found the friction rating for the OEM shoes yet, so it's
impossible to buy shoes without that information. When I call for the
friction rating I get tons of bull**** about the pad material where it's
meaningless without the friction rating.

I mean, a brake pad has a primary job, and that's not dust or noise but
friction. First comes friction. Then we can talk about dust or noise or
warranty.

But friction comes first. Without the right friction rating, it's
worthless.
  #49  
Old January 10th 18, 03:37 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 21:53:02 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> You do not need to know the ratings - just buy "oem replacement" -
> they WILL be the right stuff. (there are cheaper qualities available -
> usually sold as "economy") Premium shoes and oem replacement will
> both be VERY close toidentical. In almost 50yuears as a mechanic
> Inever once had to "match" friction materials for "stock" brake
> replacement.


I think we actually agree in that I completly agree with you that if the
friction rating of the pads I get is equal to the OEM spec, then I am where
I want to be.

I also agree that we can *trust* the guy who sells me the friction material
that he wouldn't sell me a friction material that didn't meet OEM spec.

It's sort of like when buying tires, Costco won't sell you an S rated tire
if the original tires that came on the vehicle are an H rated tire. They
don't want to sell you anything less than OEM.

I get all that. So I agree with you.

However ... I like to know my ingredients, so to speak.

SO I like to know what the friction rating is for the OEM pads/shoes, and
for the pads/shoes that I buy.

You really can't fault me for wanting that information.
It's just like reading the ingredients on a label where the ingredients are
required to be listed in order by law.

Same with the friction ratings.
  #50  
Old January 10th 18, 04:55 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:34:21 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 21:48:57 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> I have 358000km on the original rear brakes on my Ranger - and the
>> shoes had over half lining left when I last checked them about 15000km
>> ago. I've had the new shoes for 5 years, and the original owner had
>> them for 4 years before he sold me the truck - - -

>
>I don't disagree with your experience now that I've done some homework.
>It's amazing how *long* brake shoes last, at least on the rear.
>
>I suspect I'd get double the mileage that I saw if the Toyota brakes would
>only wear evenly. Most people on the Toyota forums get more than 175K miles
>but this truck was driven in very hilly country for more than a decade.
>
>> Actually it does not take a LOT of scoring to fail a drum - requiring
>> it to be turned. Then there are two different "fail" measurements -
>> there is a max wear and a max turn. If it is worn past a certain limit
>> it must be replaced, and there is a limit you can turn it to - usually
>> 2 different measurements.

>
>The problem here is that *none* of us are referencing an actual
>manufacturer's specification.
>
>I looked up the specs for a scored rotor when I had a Lexus LS 400 in the
>early nineties where I was shocked at the spec. As I recall, it was thicker
>than a dime, and maybe even a dime and a half as I recall, for it to fail
>the rotor.
>
>I didn't look up drums at the time (it had disc brakes all around), but I
>think we're all talking out of our asses (me included!) unless and until we
>dig up a real spec from the manufacturer.


It's been over a decade, so I don't remember ther exact specs, but I
did government safwety checks as well as servicing LOTS of vehicles
(including 4runners and Land Cruisers) and gouges in both rotors and
drums do not have to be terribly deep or wide to mandate
resurfacing/replacement.
>
>It's usually *hard* to find the scoring spec; it's a lot easier to find the
>thickness and runout specs, so I'm not saying it's an easy spec to find.


not hard at all. here's one:
https://www.cbsparts.ca/admin/bullet...nd%20Rotor.pdf

and another:
https://www.cbsparts.ca/admin/bullet...20Problems.pdf

see page 402 at :
https://books.google.ca/books?id=O01...limits&f=false

"If scoring or light grooves cannot be removed by hand (with emery
cloth) the drum MUST be refinished or replaced"

There is NO ALLOWABLE AMOUNT OF GROOVING ALLOWED ON A DRUM when
replacing friction m,aterial- PERIOD.

read ALL of:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/drum_brakes.htm


>
>>>
>>>The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.

>>
>> I believe thre are quality aftermarket sources at a fair bit less.

>
>I agree.
>
>The RockAuto site someone quoted had an axle for a lot less than twenty
>bucks, so Toyota is about ten times aftermarket.
>
>I called the local parts store and they have FF friction-rated shoes (I
>asked them to read me what it says on the shoe) for $17 per axle.
>
>At that price, it's not worth shopping around by price - but only for the
>friction rating.
>
>I haven't found the friction rating for the OEM shoes yet, so it's
>impossible to buy shoes without that information. When I call for the
>friction rating I get tons of bull**** about the pad material where it's
>meaningless without the friction rating.
>
>I mean, a brake pad has a primary job, and that's not dust or noise but
>friction. First comes friction. Then we can talk about dust or noise or
>warranty.
>
>But friction comes first. Without the right friction rating, it's
>worthless.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cj5 rear brake (drum) parking/emergency brake lever csdude Jeep 0 March 23rd 10 02:19 PM
cj5 rear brake (drum) parking/emergency brake lever csdude Jeep 7 March 23rd 10 08:01 AM
Parking brake/Rear drum sticking on Rabbit Bryan K. Walton VW water cooled 9 March 19th 06 12:44 PM
Parking Brake Cable and MM LCA Installation [email protected] Ford Mustang 1 November 4th 05 01:45 AM
Rear Parking Brake Cable Paul Garza Ford Mustang 3 May 14th 05 08:45 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.