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Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 8th 18, 11:16 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:03:54 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:36:04 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Take the vehicle to a mechanic and have the brakes professionally
>> repaired. You are not mentally equipped to do the job (not saying you
>> are stupid, but you don't understand the implications well enough to
>> do the job adequately.

>
>That may be true, but I think I should be mentally equipped for something
>as simple as a brake job (for example, I've done disc brakes for decades).
>I've just never touched a drum brake before so everything is new.
>
>That's why I'm doing my homework before tackling the job, which is why I
>ask you for advice.
>
>My main question was the PROCEDURE, which seems to not need me to
>disconnect the parking brake cable anywhere other than actually inside the
>drum assembly. That was the main question.



In all my years as a mechanic I always unhooked the e-brale linkage
from the cable on that style, and removed the whole assembly from the
backinplate as shown in your last picture - then reassebled with
whatever new parts were required. Check the cyls closely to make sure
nothing is sticking. Back off the handbrake cabke adjuster so it doies
not screw up the service brake adjustment, and after everything is
re-assembled and adjusted at the wheel end, look after the handbrake
adjustment/adjuster. Mage REAL sure the cabkes azre not hanging up
ANYWHERE or you will end up repkacing shoes again After 20 years it
would not surprise me at all if you need cyls and cables, but it IS a
Toyota and they are pretty high quality, dependable vehicles. (Iwas a
Toyota service manager for 10years)
>
>The secondary questions will abound, based on what people ask me, such as
>someone asked why I considered 295 mm to be 2mm on the safe side over the
>297 mm drum diameter.
>
>Also the implication that "something is wrong" is perfectly natural since
>the front bottom half is worn more than the rest after 175K miles, but it
>seems from Googling that this is normal on Toyota rear drum brakes.
>
>There's something in the math as shown here - but it's too triggy for me.
>https://s13.postimg.org/4g0jxrng7/diagram_0.jpg
>
>This is what someone wrote about why the Toyota wears in the front bottom
>https://s13.postimg.org/l3s1zwn93/diagram_1.jpg
>
>> You LIKELY need new cabvles, and ot cyls, and
>> or adjusters along with the shoes

>
>I would be happy to replace anything that seems bad, but nothing seems bad
>at this point other than the shoes are worn. Other than leaks (which I
>don't see, nor is there any indication of loss of brake fluid), what's the
>test for new cables, and cylinders and adusters?
>
>Here's a closeup of the adjuster:
>https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg


Adjuster looks good, but clean and lube
>
>Here's a picture of the parking brake setup:
>https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg
>
>And a closeup of the parking brake cable:
>https://s13.postimg.org/b2n7qr2hz/brakes_drum_3.jpg
>
>What is the test for worn condition?


The cable MUST move easily and smoothly. Same with the cyl pistons. be
carefull not to pop them out but they should both push in easily and
you should be able to slide the pair of pistons easily back and forth
in the bore.
>
>> which you MOST CERTAINLY can NOT
>> just swithch positions.

>
>This is an important question, which you've now answered (as did someone
>else who said the larger shoe is the rear shoe). This means "rotation"
>every few years isn't possible.
>
>> The adjusters should have been backed off to
>> replace the drums.

>
>I see that now, as the drum required a good few mallet hits to get it back
>on. Not too many. But a few. Next time I'll turn the star adjuster before
>putting the drum back on.
>
>Thanks for the advice!

Ads
  #22  
Old January 8th 18, 11:20 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Meanie[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 1/8/2018 1:34 PM, Mad Roger wrote:

>
> Thanks for your help as this is my first set of drum brakes ever.
>
> This is a side view closeup of the front unevenly worn shoe:
> https://s13.postimg.org/mezt8lvs7/brakes_drum_4.jpg
>
> I had been, for years, looking through the peep hole, but that showed a lot
> of meat on the shoes. You really have to remove the drum to see the actual
> shoe, so, after 175K miles on the same shoes, I finally removed the drum
> and noticed that the front show lower end, is worn tapering to the middle,
> while the rest of the shoes are just fine.


>
> The cylinder seems to not be leaking but that's all I can tell.
> There have been no unusual braking events so I'm not debugging anything.


They don't always have to leak. I've had a few that were stuck due to
some rust within the cylinder. I just replaced them since they were
cheap back in the days of yore. Though, I did take one apart and freed
it up with some cleaning. It appeared to work fine after that.
>
> I googled a bit, and it seems "normal" for Toyota 4Runner rear brake shoes
> to wear most in the front show on the bottom half. Something to do with the
> geometry. I can't complain, as the shoes definitely are original so 20
> years is a long time for a brake shoe to finally wear out.


I can't speak for normality but I just find it odd that it would wear
like that when there isn't a bad part. Usually, I would see one show
worn more so than the other, but never a tapered wear.
>
>>> 3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
>>> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>

>>
>> Maximum diameter of what?

>
> The drum:
> http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=942...m_brakes_3.jpg
>
> In that photo you can see that the inside of the drum has a molded in
> maximum diameter of 297mm. I assume that means the maximum diameter.
>
> My calipers are in US measurements where 11.615 inches converts to about
> 295mm.
>
> So I assume the drum is good by 2mm in thickness.
>
>> Are you aware of the adjusters? Each side has
>> one and it sits under the cylinder behind the hub.

>
> Yes. This vehicle adjusts automatically when you brake in reverse, so I've
> never dealt with them - but I am going to have to back them out for sure
> when I put the new brake shoes on.


Most adjusters work with the emergency/parking brake. Though, many
people rarely, if ever, use the parking brake and those adjusters can
rust up and stop pushing the shoe against the drum.
>
> You can see the adjuster he
> https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg
>
> I'm just not sure what we're supposed to do about the parking brake cable
> linkages. I don't know yet if they have to be disconnected when putting in
> new brake shoes.
>
> You can see the parking brake cable he
> https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg


I have worked on many drum brakes and I have never had to remove a
parking brake cable. The cable is attached to the metal assembly and
that will just hang on the cable when you remove it and replace the
shoes. Though, if it's easy to remove and reattach, then there's no harm
in doing so.
>
>> It's job is to keep the shoes against the drum and is automatically
>> adjusted when the parking brake is used. Often, this is the reason why
>> drums are difficult to remove. They are adjusted from the other side
>> through an opening using an adjustment tool and often need to be
>> loosened in order to remove the drum. They also need to be tightened
>> after you replaced the shoes and re-install the drum. Retract them and
>> your diameter will be less than the drum.

>
> I understand what you're saying, which is that the brake shoes may be
> "wedged" against the drum, but I had the vehicle in the air and the parking
> brake off, so, any wedging shouldn't be too strong.


Agreed. There should be a slight drag and minor friction when you turn
the drum, but never should be too tight where it's difficult to remove
the drum.
>
> This is a closeup of the parking brake cable connection to the shoes:
> https://s13.postimg.org/b2n7qr2hz/brakes_drum_3.jpg
>
> As it was, putting the two 2-inch long 8mmx1.25 bolts in the two holes for
> the purpose pushed the drum off easily. I had to squish the shoes a bit to
> get the drum back on - and if necessary - I would have twisted the adjuster
> - but I didn't need to.
>
>> The parking brake cable doesn't need to be removed, assuming it's
>> functioning properly. Just ensure the parking brake is not engage when
>> replacing shoes. The parking brake assembly will be removed when the
>> shoes are replaced.

>
> Oh. OK. The parking brake seems to be a thick black cable that comes in at
> the bottom of these shoes.


Yes, attached to the metal assembly which turns that adjuster.
>
>> Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
>> matter if they are placed in front or rear. Others are specific and
>> require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
>> be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
>> the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
>> should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
>> proper even thickness.

>
> I think I'll replace the shoes, but since they lasted 20 years, I was just
> wondering if "rotating" them every two or three or five years would have
> extended the life of them.
>
> It's a late 90's 4Runner.
>


All I can say is I've never "rotated" brake shoes, since IMO, they were
cheap when I used to work on many cars. I can sympathize when only one
shoe is worn while the other(s) have ample thickness. I hate to see such
waste. The choice is yours since it appears the shoes are the same on
each side, you could simply swap them and ensure that drag and minor
friction partake when you reinstall the drum. Honestly, if it were me in
my youth as a poor teen working on my own car, that's what I would do.
But now that I'm a wealthy millionaire (that's tough to say without
laughing) Ok, now that I'm financially stable, I would just buy them and
install. Since you have to remove all the hardware anyway, installing
new shoes would be the best option.

  #23  
Old January 9th 18, 12:41 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:06:20 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> Doesn't show the handbrake (e-brake) adjuster - which is on the
> cable or part of the pedal/handle.


You're correct that the handbrake is what adjusts the drums (I was wrong in
assuming it was the action of braking in reverse).

People seem to say that the "bellcrank" needs replacing, so I dug into the
terminology to find this parts diagram.
https://s9.postimg.org/h7kn548n3/parts_diagram.gif

I think the bellcrank are the funny shaped pieces.
https://s9.postimg.org/gi1ussaof/dorman_parts.jpg
  #24  
Old January 9th 18, 12:41 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 17:20:28 -0500,
Meanie wrote:

>> Yes. This vehicle adjusts automatically when you brake in reverse, so I've
>> never dealt with them - but I am going to have to back them out for sure
>> when I put the new brake shoes on.

>
> Most adjusters work with the emergency/parking brake. Though, many
> people rarely, if ever, use the parking brake and those adjusters can
> rust up and stop pushing the shoe against the drum.


I have since found out that you are correct and I was wrong.
Reversing won't work to adjust the drums.
The parking brake lever ratchets the adjustment.
My bad.
  #25  
Old January 9th 18, 12:50 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 16:31:04 -0500,
Tekkie wrote:

> No mad man you have not researched anything, you ask everybody and argue and
> then criticize. If you HAD researched you would know all about the cables,
> shoes and adjusters. You are too busy taking pix and asking questions. 1)
> Take pix of brake assy after pulling drum.


Thanks for the advice, which is much appreciated.

I don't think I said I was done with my homework - just that I was asking
out of due diligence - where I have plenty more homework to do, as you are
astutely noting.

I haven't watched this whole video yet - it's an hour long - but it should
be able to give me all the physical steps necessary to replace the brakes.

Drum Brake Shoe Replacement, Timmy The Toolman
<https://youtu.be/IJkVEBYSecs>

> Go to NAPA and ask for a brake kit and linings and cylinders because
> yours will leak after you push the seals back or rebuild the cylinders.


The Toyota threads I've found insist on Toyota OEM shoes, but do say the
rest of the hardware can be gotten elsewhere.

The cylinders don't appear to be shot, but 20 years is a long time so they
probably will fare with a rebuild.

The Toyota folks say get the "u clip" which has to be bent, and which comes
standard with a factory OEM kit but might not come with the NAPA kit. We
don't have NAPA anywhere nearby, but we have other brands like Autozone,
and O'Reillys and Petboys.

> Measure the drums as they may be shot after this debacle.


In the OP you see me measuring the internal diameter of the drums, which
have a limit of 297mm, but it's only 295 mm so we should be ok. Are you
intimating that the 2mm isn't enough of a safety zone?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>

I think 2mm should be enough. It would be fine on a rotor.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg>
  #26  
Old January 9th 18, 02:18 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:16:46 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> In all my years as a mechanic I always unhooked the e-brake linkage
> from the cable on that style, and removed the whole assembly from the
> backinplate as shown in your last picture - then reassebled with
> whatever new parts were required.


When I googled, that's one of the methods I found people use, although most
seem to replace them, one shoe at a time (because they remarked they'd try
the full-removal method next time).

This guy did the full removal, but he completely skipped the removal steps:
<https://youtu.be/TywVkpCDcCA?t=288>

> Check the cyls closely to make sure
> nothing is sticking. Back off the handbrake cabke adjuster so it doies
> not screw up the service brake adjustment, and after everything is
> re-assembled and adjusted at the wheel end, look after the handbrake
> adjustment/adjuster. Make REAL sure the cables are not hanging up
> ANYWHERE or you will end up replacing shoes again.


Thanks for that advice.

> After 20 years it
> would not surprise me at all if you need cyls and cables but it IS a
> Toyota and they are pretty high quality, dependable vehicles. (I was a
> Toyota service manager for 10 years)


I wasn't thinking cylinders, but I'm fine with rebuilding them. I've
rebuilt master cylinders in the past where it's easy to rebuild a cylinder
with the right parts.
  #27  
Old January 9th 18, 03:13 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Steve W.[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,048
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

Mad Roger wrote:
> I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
> I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
> drum brakes before.
>
> 1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
> long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg>
>
> 2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
> the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
> miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg>


Wheel cylinder is bad as well. The rear shoe show virtually no wear,
that indicates the wheel cylinder isn't doing it's job.

>
> 3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>
>
> 4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg>
>
> 5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
> from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg>


That also says the rear shoe is stuck.

>
> The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
> parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
> new shoes on after I buy them.
>
> Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
> there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
> the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
> wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).


No, there is a leading shoe and a trailing shoe.

>
> But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
> Can you advise?


On most you just make sure it is fully released. Then you install the
new parts and adjust the base brakes so the drum just turns free. Then
you adjust the E-Brake so it applies after the number of clicks or
distance specified in the book.

--
Steve W.
  #28  
Old January 9th 18, 03:56 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 01:18:54 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:16:46 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> In all my years as a mechanic I always unhooked the e-brake linkage
>> from the cable on that style, and removed the whole assembly from the
>> backinplate as shown in your last picture - then reassebled with
>> whatever new parts were required.

>
>When I googled, that's one of the methods I found people use, although most
>seem to replace them, one shoe at a time (because they remarked they'd try
>the full-removal method next time).
>
>This guy did the full removal, but he completely skipped the removal steps:
><https://youtu.be/TywVkpCDcCA?t=288>
>
>> Check the cyls closely to make sure
>> nothing is sticking. Back off the handbrake cabke adjuster so it doies
>> not screw up the service brake adjustment, and after everything is
>> re-assembled and adjusted at the wheel end, look after the handbrake
>> adjustment/adjuster. Make REAL sure the cables are not hanging up
>> ANYWHERE or you will end up replacing shoes again.

>
>Thanks for that advice.
>
>> After 20 years it
>> would not surprise me at all if you need cyls and cables but it IS a
>> Toyota and they are pretty high quality, dependable vehicles. (I was a
>> Toyota service manager for 10 years)

>
>I wasn't thinking cylinders, but I'm fine with rebuilding them. I've
>rebuilt master cylinders in the past where it's easy to rebuild a cylinder
>with the right parts.


Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
are paying to have it done)
  #29  
Old January 9th 18, 07:29 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
dsi1[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 269
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 1:50:07 PM UTC-10, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 16:31:04 -0500,
> Tekkie wrote:
>
> > No mad man you have not researched anything, you ask everybody and argue and
> > then criticize. If you HAD researched you would know all about the cables,
> > shoes and adjusters. You are too busy taking pix and asking questions. 1)
> > Take pix of brake assy after pulling drum.

>
> Thanks for the advice, which is much appreciated.
>
> I don't think I said I was done with my homework - just that I was asking
> out of due diligence - where I have plenty more homework to do, as you are
> astutely noting.
>
> I haven't watched this whole video yet - it's an hour long - but it should
> be able to give me all the physical steps necessary to replace the brakes..
>
> Drum Brake Shoe Replacement, Timmy The Toolman
> <https://youtu.be/IJkVEBYSecs>
>
> > Go to NAPA and ask for a brake kit and linings and cylinders because
> > yours will leak after you push the seals back or rebuild the cylinders.

>
> The Toyota threads I've found insist on Toyota OEM shoes, but do say the
> rest of the hardware can be gotten elsewhere.
>
> The cylinders don't appear to be shot, but 20 years is a long time so they
> probably will fare with a rebuild.
>
> The Toyota folks say get the "u clip" which has to be bent, and which comes
> standard with a factory OEM kit but might not come with the NAPA kit. We
> don't have NAPA anywhere nearby, but we have other brands like Autozone,
> and O'Reillys and Petboys.
>
> > Measure the drums as they may be shot after this debacle.

>
> In the OP you see me measuring the internal diameter of the drums, which
> have a limit of 297mm, but it's only 295 mm so we should be ok. Are you
> intimating that the 2mm isn't enough of a safety zone?
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>
>
> I think 2mm should be enough. It would be fine on a rotor.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg>


You got the tools but still have questions if your drum diameter is any good. Why the heck are you measuring the diameter? That info is mostly for the lathe operator if you need to have the drums resurfaced. I've never calipered a drum in my life. You get the new shoes and check the drum diameter by holding it against the drum surface. It'll be obvious if the diameter is too large. This ain't rocket science but you don't seem to be able to grasp the concepts of what's happening here. That's discouraging.
  #30  
Old January 9th 18, 07:33 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
dsi1[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 269
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 4:56:59 PM UTC-10, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 01:18:54 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> > wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:16:46 -0500,
> > Clare Snyder wrote:
> >
> >> In all my years as a mechanic I always unhooked the e-brake linkage
> >> from the cable on that style, and removed the whole assembly from the
> >> backinplate as shown in your last picture - then reassebled with
> >> whatever new parts were required.

> >
> >When I googled, that's one of the methods I found people use, although most
> >seem to replace them, one shoe at a time (because they remarked they'd try
> >the full-removal method next time).
> >
> >This guy did the full removal, but he completely skipped the removal steps:
> ><https://youtu.be/TywVkpCDcCA?t=288>
> >
> >> Check the cyls closely to make sure
> >> nothing is sticking. Back off the handbrake cabke adjuster so it doies
> >> not screw up the service brake adjustment, and after everything is
> >> re-assembled and adjusted at the wheel end, look after the handbrake
> >> adjustment/adjuster. Make REAL sure the cables are not hanging up
> >> ANYWHERE or you will end up replacing shoes again.

> >
> >Thanks for that advice.
> >
> >> After 20 years it
> >> would not surprise me at all if you need cyls and cables but it IS a
> >> Toyota and they are pretty high quality, dependable vehicles. (I was a
> >> Toyota service manager for 10 years)

> >
> >I wasn't thinking cylinders, but I'm fine with rebuilding them. I've
> >rebuilt master cylinders in the past where it's easy to rebuild a cylinder
> >with the right parts.

>
> Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
> parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
> what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
> are paying to have it done)


Cylinder rebuild kits are getting scarce on this rock too. I used to get the kits back in the old days but these days I buy new cylinders. Using new parts when servicing drum brakes doesn't cost much. In my dotage, I don't like dicking around with old parts.
 




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