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Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 8th 18, 07:02 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
drum brakes before.

1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg>

2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg>

3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>

4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg>

5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg>

The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
new shoes on after I buy them.

Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?
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  #2  
Old January 8th 18, 10:28 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
dsi1[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 309
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 9:02:24 PM UTC-10, Mad Roger wrote:
> I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
> I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
> drum brakes before.
>
> 1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
> long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg>
>
> 2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
> the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
> miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg>
>
> 3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>
>
> 4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg>
>
> 5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
> from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg>
>
> The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
> parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
> new shoes on after I buy them.
>
> Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
> there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
> the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
> wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).
>
> But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable..
> Can you advise?


It depends on the cable. Some have a spring that keeps the cable end firmly in place. Those can be tough to put back on. In that case, I'd leave the cable attached. The parking brake arm is held on with a clip so you really don't have to detach it. Just clip it on the new shoe with the cable attached.

Your photos don't show any spring attached so it could just fall off when you detach the arm from the shoe. Make sure you take a lot of pictures. I was working on some brakes a couple of weeks ago and just blanked out on where to attach a spring. Your brake looks pretty simple so that's a good thing..

It's normal to have one shoe worn more than the other - they were designed that way. Brake shoes are cheap, so replace both. A hardware kit with new clips and springs are nice if you can get it. Good luck!

  #3  
Old January 8th 18, 12:03 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Meanie[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On 1/8/2018 2:02 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
> I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
> I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
> drum brakes before.
>
> 1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
> long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg>
>
> 2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
> the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
> miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg>


It appears the one shoe is unevenly worn. Could be a bad cylinder or
another stuck part such as the adjuster. Check them and replace/repair
if needed.
>
> 3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>


Maximum diameter of what? Are you aware of the adjusters? Each side has
one and it sits under the cylinder behind the hub. You can see it in
this diagram
http://repairguide.autozone.com/znet...5280089c12.gif

It's job is to keep the shoes against the drum and is automatically
adjusted when the parking brake is used. Often, this is the reason why
drums are difficult to remove. They are adjusted from the other side
through an opening using an adjustment tool and often need to be
loosened in order to remove the drum. They also need to be tightened
after you replaced the shoes and re-install the drum. Retract them and
your diameter will be less than the drum.
>
> 4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg>
>
> 5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
> from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg>


Back to the adjuster.
>
> The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
> parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
> new shoes on after I buy them.
>

The parking brake cable doesn't need to be removed, assuming it's
functioning properly. Just ensure the parking brake is not engage when
replacing shoes. The parking brake assembly will be removed when the
shoes are replaced.

> Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
> there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
> the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
> wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).
>

Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
matter if they are placed in front or rear. Others are specific and
require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
proper even thickness.

> But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
> Can you advise?
>


  #4  
Old January 8th 18, 02:16 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
slate_leeper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?


>But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
>Can you advise?



The parking brake is adjustable. This was usually done with a threaded
sleeve over a threaded stud mounted between the two shoes at either
the top or bottom. On the threaded sleeve is a toothed "wheel" which
is used to turn the sleeve from the inside of the brake mount plate
when the brake drum is on. There is a special tool for this, which
resembles a small pry bar. You can probably find or make something to
use.

Before putting the drum on, turn the sleeve in to shorten the link
between the two brake shoes. The brake drum should then slide right
on. Put on the tire and tighten the lugs to hold the drum properly in
position. From under the car access the slot behind the toothed wheel,
and using the adjustment tool turn it to lengthen the adjuster until
the tire can no longer be rotated by hand. Then back the adjuster off
until the tire can just be rotated easily.

BTW, make sure that the longer of the new brake shoes is on the BACK
for each wheel.

-dan z-



__
Someone who thinks logically provides
a nice contrast to the real world.
(Anonymous)
  #5  
Old January 8th 18, 06:34 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:03:33 -0500,
Meanie wrote:

> It appears the one shoe is unevenly worn.


Thanks for your help as this is my first set of drum brakes ever.

This is a side view closeup of the front unevenly worn shoe:
https://s13.postimg.org/mezt8lvs7/brakes_drum_4.jpg

I had been, for years, looking through the peep hole, but that showed a lot
of meat on the shoes. You really have to remove the drum to see the actual
shoe, so, after 175K miles on the same shoes, I finally removed the drum
and noticed that the front show lower end, is worn tapering to the middle,
while the rest of the shoes are just fine.

> Could be a bad cylinder or
> another stuck part such as the adjuster. Check them and replace/repair
> if needed.


Thanks for that advice.

The cylinder seems to not be leaking but that's all I can tell.
There have been no unusual braking events so I'm not debugging anything.

I googled a bit, and it seems "normal" for Toyota 4Runner rear brake shoes
to wear most in the front show on the bottom half. Something to do with the
geometry. I can't complain, as the shoes definitely are original so 20
years is a long time for a brake shoe to finally wear out.

>> 3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
>> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>

>
> Maximum diameter of what?


The drum:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=942...m_brakes_3.jpg

In that photo you can see that the inside of the drum has a molded in
maximum diameter of 297mm. I assume that means the maximum diameter.

My calipers are in US measurements where 11.615 inches converts to about
295mm.

So I assume the drum is good by 2mm in thickness.

> Are you aware of the adjusters? Each side has
> one and it sits under the cylinder behind the hub.


Yes. This vehicle adjusts automatically when you brake in reverse, so I've
never dealt with them - but I am going to have to back them out for sure
when I put the new brake shoes on.

You can see the adjuster he
https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg

I'm just not sure what we're supposed to do about the parking brake cable
linkages. I don't know yet if they have to be disconnected when putting in
new brake shoes.

You can see the parking brake cable he
https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg

> It's job is to keep the shoes against the drum and is automatically
> adjusted when the parking brake is used. Often, this is the reason why
> drums are difficult to remove. They are adjusted from the other side
> through an opening using an adjustment tool and often need to be
> loosened in order to remove the drum. They also need to be tightened
> after you replaced the shoes and re-install the drum. Retract them and
> your diameter will be less than the drum.


I understand what you're saying, which is that the brake shoes may be
"wedged" against the drum, but I had the vehicle in the air and the parking
brake off, so, any wedging shouldn't be too strong.

This is a closeup of the parking brake cable connection to the shoes:
https://s13.postimg.org/b2n7qr2hz/brakes_drum_3.jpg

As it was, putting the two 2-inch long 8mmx1.25 bolts in the two holes for
the purpose pushed the drum off easily. I had to squish the shoes a bit to
get the drum back on - and if necessary - I would have twisted the adjuster
- but I didn't need to.

> The parking brake cable doesn't need to be removed, assuming it's
> functioning properly. Just ensure the parking brake is not engage when
> replacing shoes. The parking brake assembly will be removed when the
> shoes are replaced.


Oh. OK. The parking brake seems to be a thick black cable that comes in at
the bottom of these shoes.

> Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
> matter if they are placed in front or rear. Others are specific and
> require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
> be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
> the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
> should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
> proper even thickness.


I think I'll replace the shoes, but since they lasted 20 years, I was just
wondering if "rotating" them every two or three or five years would have
extended the life of them.

It's a late 90's 4Runner.
  #6  
Old January 8th 18, 06:36 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:02:22 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

>I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
>I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
>drum brakes before.
>
>1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
>long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
><http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg>
>
>2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
>the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
>miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
><http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg>
>
>3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
><http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg>
>
>4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
><http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg>
>
>5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
>from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
><http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg>
>
>The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
>parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
>new shoes on after I buy them.
>
>Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
>there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
>the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
>wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).
>
>But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
>Can you advise?

Take the vehicle to a mechanic and have the brakes professionally
repaired. You are not mentally equipped to do the job (not saying you
are stupid, but you don't understand the implications well enough to
do the job adequately. You LIKELY need new cabvles, and ot cyls, and
or adjusters along with the shoes - which you MOST CERTAINLY can NOT
just swithch positions. The adjusters should have been backed off to
replace the drums.
  #7  
Old January 8th 18, 06:40 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 09:16:15 -0500,
slate_leeper wrote:

> The parking brake is adjustable. This was usually done with a threaded
> sleeve over a threaded stud mounted between the two shoes at either
> the top or bottom.


Is this the mechanism you're talking about?
https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg

Here's the bottom, where the parking brake cable connects:
https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg

> On the threaded sleeve is a toothed "wheel" which
> is used to turn the sleeve from the inside of the brake mount plate
> when the brake drum is on. There is a special tool for this, which
> resembles a small pry bar. You can probably find or make something to
> use.


I picked up at Harbor Freight a bunch of brake tools, one an all purpose
foot-long pliers, the others the special-purpose spring tool so I should be
ok on tools unless there is a Toyota-specific tool required (which I don't
think there is).

> Before putting the drum on, turn the sleeve in to shorten the link
> between the two brake shoes. The brake drum should then slide right
> on.


That makes a lot of sense, so I will do that when I put the new shoes back
on. I probably should have turned the toothed wheel a few clicks even when
I inspected it and put it back on, as it was a bit tight getting the drum
back on. I had to use a mallet.

> Put on the tire and tighten the lugs to hold the drum properly in
> position. From under the car access the slot behind the toothed wheel,
> and using the adjustment tool turn it to lengthen the adjuster until
> the tire can no longer be rotated by hand. Then back the adjuster off
> until the tire can just be rotated easily.


This makes a lot of sense!

It would adjust the brakes to the minimum, where the automatic backing up
in reverse will fine tune it, I guess.

> BTW, make sure that the longer of the new brake shoes is on the BACK
> for each wheel.


Ah. That means that the two shoes are NOT identical!

That negates the idea of "rotating" them every few years like we do tires
every five thousand miles to get more even wear out of them over time.
  #8  
Old January 8th 18, 06:45 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:03:33 -0500, Meanie > wrote:

>
>> Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
>> there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
>> the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
>> wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).
>>

>Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
>matter if they are placed in front or rear.

Define "many"

Only vehicles with "twin leading shoe" brakes use the same shoe front
and back - and I'm not aware of ANY vehicle built with twin leading
shoe brakes since the early seventies - and then only British
vehicles. The leading and trailing shoe are generally of different
lengths as well as often different friction materials.

> Others are specific and
>require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
>be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
>the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
>should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
>proper even thickness.


Actually it IS common - and considered normal, for the "leading shoe"
to wear differently than the "trailing shoe" on a servo type (self
energizing) brake system - which virtually all recent (modern) drum
brake systems are. the leading shoe contacts the drum, and the drag
(friction) on that shoe rotates the shoe through the linkage between
shoes, forcing the trailing shoe more firmly in contact with the drum.
This enhances the brake action beyond what would be possible strictly
by the hydraulic force from the wheel cyls.
>
>> But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
>> Can you advise?
>>

It generally unhooks from the activbation lever connected to the
brake shoes. On soime cars the lever unhooks easily from the shoe and
does not NEED to be disconnected from the cable

Again - I would ADVISE you (the OP) to have a mechanic properly
repair the brakes.
  #9  
Old January 8th 18, 06:48 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 09:16:15 -0500, slate_leeper
> wrote:

>
>>But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
>>Can you advise?

>
>
>The parking brake is adjustable. This was usually done with a threaded
>sleeve over a threaded stud mounted between the two shoes at either
>the top or bottom. On the threaded sleeve is a toothed "wheel" which
>is used to turn the sleeve from the inside of the brake mount plate
>when the brake drum is on. There is a special tool for this, which
>resembles a small pry bar. You can probably find or make something to
>use.


That is the SERVICE BRAKE adjustment - the parking brake adjustment
is separate - on the cable - and on the VAST majority of vehicles on
the road today the parking brake is totally self adjusting, as is the
service brake. Different schemes are used on different vehicles and
understanding how it is supposed to work is CRUCIAL to doing a safe
and effective repair.
>
>Before putting the drum on, turn the sleeve in to shorten the link
>between the two brake shoes. The brake drum should then slide right
>on. Put on the tire and tighten the lugs to hold the drum properly in
>position. From under the car access the slot behind the toothed wheel,
>and using the adjustment tool turn it to lengthen the adjuster until
>the tire can no longer be rotated by hand. Then back the adjuster off
>until the tire can just be rotated easily.
>
>BTW, make sure that the longer of the new brake shoes is on the BACK
>for each wheel.
>
>-dan z-
>
>
>
>__
>Someone who thinks logically provides
>a nice contrast to the real world.
>(Anonymous)

  #10  
Old January 8th 18, 07:03 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:36:04 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> Take the vehicle to a mechanic and have the brakes professionally
> repaired. You are not mentally equipped to do the job (not saying you
> are stupid, but you don't understand the implications well enough to
> do the job adequately.


That may be true, but I think I should be mentally equipped for something
as simple as a brake job (for example, I've done disc brakes for decades).
I've just never touched a drum brake before so everything is new.

That's why I'm doing my homework before tackling the job, which is why I
ask you for advice.

My main question was the PROCEDURE, which seems to not need me to
disconnect the parking brake cable anywhere other than actually inside the
drum assembly. That was the main question.

The secondary questions will abound, based on what people ask me, such as
someone asked why I considered 295 mm to be 2mm on the safe side over the
297 mm drum diameter.

Also the implication that "something is wrong" is perfectly natural since
the front bottom half is worn more than the rest after 175K miles, but it
seems from Googling that this is normal on Toyota rear drum brakes.

There's something in the math as shown here - but it's too triggy for me.
https://s13.postimg.org/4g0jxrng7/diagram_0.jpg

This is what someone wrote about why the Toyota wears in the front bottom
https://s13.postimg.org/l3s1zwn93/diagram_1.jpg

> You LIKELY need new cabvles, and ot cyls, and
> or adjusters along with the shoes


I would be happy to replace anything that seems bad, but nothing seems bad
at this point other than the shoes are worn. Other than leaks (which I
don't see, nor is there any indication of loss of brake fluid), what's the
test for new cables, and cylinders and adusters?

Here's a closeup of the adjuster:
https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg

Here's a picture of the parking brake setup:
https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg

And a closeup of the parking brake cable:
https://s13.postimg.org/b2n7qr2hz/brakes_drum_3.jpg

What is the test for worn condition?

> which you MOST CERTAINLY can NOT
> just swithch positions.


This is an important question, which you've now answered (as did someone
else who said the larger shoe is the rear shoe). This means "rotation"
every few years isn't possible.

> The adjusters should have been backed off to
> replace the drums.


I see that now, as the drum required a good few mallet hits to get it back
on. Not too many. But a few. Next time I'll turn the star adjuster before
putting the drum back on.

Thanks for the advice!
 




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