89 Dodge Spirit running rough

Hello all,

I have a problem I hope you can guide me the right direction.

My mother has an 89 Dodge Spirit she just loves. It started going though
gas like crazy, has gas smell, less power than normal and lopping
(jerking) when you drive. It eats O2 sensors. Just turns them black with
carbon.

I know about pulling the codes with the key but all it shows is the O2
sensor. The manual says the key method doesn't have access to all of the
codes and I need a reader for that.

I took it to a repair shop. They told me ALL of the sensors on the engine
were bad as well as the computer. Now I drove the car 26 miles there and
since then 26 miles back, at approx 70mph. It did jerk at times a little
but it was driveable. I asked them how this could be possible and they
mentioned jump starting. Is it possible for this car to be driven in that
condition? Every sensor including the computer bad.

What is the difference between a 'code reader' and a 'code scanner'?

I am looking at either Actron or Autoxray. I would prefer one that reads
OBD I and II so I can use it on newer vehicles but they are kind of pricey.

Does a code reader pull more codes than the key method?

Will it give me enough info to know if the computer is bad?

I noticed some check sensors too.

At one time several years ago I did tune-ups for Precision Tune so I am
not 100% in the dark. I got out of cars before the feds saved us all with
the emissions. ;-)

Thanks in advance,
Steve

SteveSch wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have a problem I hope you can guide me the right direction.
>
> My mother has an 89 Dodge Spirit she just loves. It started going though
> gas like crazy, has gas smell, less power than normal and lopping
> (jerking) when you drive. It eats O2 sensors. Just turns them black with
> carbon.
>
> I know about pulling the codes with the key but all it shows is the O2
> sensor. The manual says the key method doesn't have access to all of the
> codes and I need a reader for that.
>
> I took it to a repair shop. They told me ALL of the sensors on the engine
> were bad as well as the computer. Now I drove the car 26 miles there and
> since then 26 miles back, at approx 70mph. It did jerk at times a little
> but it was driveable. I asked them how this could be possible and they
> mentioned jump starting. Is it possible for this car to be driven in that
> condition? Every sensor including the computer bad.
>
> What is the difference between a 'code reader' and a 'code scanner'?
>
> I am looking at either Actron or Autoxray. I would prefer one that reads
> OBD I and II so I can use it on newer vehicles but they are kind of pricey.
>
> Does a code reader pull more codes than the key method?
>
> Will it give me enough info to know if the computer is bad?
>
> I noticed some check sensors too.
>
> At one time several years ago I did tune-ups for Precision Tune so I am
> not 100% in the dark. I got out of cars before the feds saved us all with
> the emissions. ;-)
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve

I would be very wary of a so-called mechanic who tells me that 'all the
sensors and the computer' are bad. This person is quite obviously not
troubleshooting anything at all and just plans on throwing parts at your
car with no knowledge of how these parts even work.

Can he explain what *exactly* is wrong with 'every sensor and the computer'?

Some of the scanners will show the the 'snapshot' data captured at the
time the MIL was lit. But I don't think that your '89 will have the
OBD-II controller. You may need to work through the codes that you have
and check each part of the system to figure out what went wrong.

You mentioned a loss of fuel efficiancy coupled with a smell of gas. The
first thing I would check for is a leak. Bend/pull/push on all fuel
lines to be sure that it is not a simple cracked fuel line causing your
problem.

Good Luck.

When 'all' the sensors go bad, it normally means the body ground has
gone bad so the computer doesn't see them. Look for wire mesh straps.
Lots of times there are a bunch of small black wires bolted onto the
block around the dipstick that are the grounds for the sensors. This
connection can also get corroded.

I would sure clean up the cables before spending money.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

SteveSch wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have a problem I hope you can guide me the right direction.
>
> My mother has an 89 Dodge Spirit she just loves. It started going though
> gas like crazy, has gas smell, less power than normal and lopping
> (jerking) when you drive. It eats O2 sensors. Just turns them black with
> carbon.
>
> I know about pulling the codes with the key but all it shows is the O2
> sensor. The manual says the key method doesn't have access to all of the
> codes and I need a reader for that.
>
> I took it to a repair shop. They told me ALL of the sensors on the engine
> were bad as well as the computer. Now I drove the car 26 miles there and
> since then 26 miles back, at approx 70mph. It did jerk at times a little
> but it was driveable. I asked them how this could be possible and they
> mentioned jump starting. Is it possible for this car to be driven in that
> condition? Every sensor including the computer bad.
>
> What is the difference between a 'code reader' and a 'code scanner'?
>
> I am looking at either Actron or Autoxray. I would prefer one that reads
> OBD I and II so I can use it on newer vehicles but they are kind of pricey.
>
> Does a code reader pull more codes than the key method?
>
> Will it give me enough info to know if the computer is bad?
>
> I noticed some check sensors too.
>
> At one time several years ago I did tune-ups for Precision Tune so I am
> not 100% in the dark. I got out of cars before the feds saved us all with
> the emissions. ;-)
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:50:31 -0600, TomO wrote:

<<snip>>

> I would be very wary of a so-called mechanic who tells me that 'all the
> sensors and the computer' are bad. This person is quite obviously not
> troubleshooting anything at all and just plans on throwing parts at your
> car with no knowledge of how these parts even work.
>
> Can he explain what *exactly* is wrong with 'every sensor and the computer'?

He just said it was probably because it was jumped. I found it very hard
to believe but he was recommended by a shop I trusted.

> Some of the scanners will show the the 'snapshot' data captured at the
> time the MIL was lit. But I don't think that your '89 will have the
> OBD-II controller. You may need to work through the codes that you have
> and check each part of the system to figure out what went wrong.

I am under the impression that I need an OBD I reader although the manual
says DRB II.

> You mentioned a loss of fuel efficiency coupled with a smell of gas. The
> first thing I would check for is a leak. Bend/pull/push on all fuel
> lines to be sure that it is not a simple cracked fuel line causing your
> problem.

The fuel would drip from the injector manifold. Like the old cars when
they flooded. I went to another shop and they tightened all the hoses.

The first shop told me the compression was good. I checked the compression
and it read 100, 110, 55, 110. Even I know that's NOT good. I'd sure like
to make it run for a while longer though. Years ago at Precision Tune
we had an old Chrysler come in with a dead hole. 0 compression. That car
would squeal the tires no problem, with 7 cylinders.

I called the shop that recommended them and let them know what I have
found out. They were not too pleased about that shop. I hope they don't
send too many more that direction.

Thanks,
Steve

SteveSch wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:50:31 -0600, TomO wrote:
>
> <<snip>>
>
> > I would be very wary of a so-called mechanic who tells me that 'all the
> > sensors and the computer' are bad. This person is quite obviously not
> > troubleshooting anything at all and just plans on throwing parts at your
> > car with no knowledge of how these parts even work.
> >
> > Can he explain what *exactly* is wrong with 'every sensor and the computer'?
>
> He just said it was probably because it was jumped. I found it very hard
> to believe but he was recommended by a shop I trusted.
>
> > Some of the scanners will show the the 'snapshot' data captured at the
> > time the MIL was lit. But I don't think that your '89 will have the
> > OBD-II controller. You may need to work through the codes that you have
> > and check each part of the system to figure out what went wrong.
>
> I am under the impression that I need an OBD I reader although the manual
> says DRB II.
>
> > You mentioned a loss of fuel efficiency coupled with a smell of gas. The
> > first thing I would check for is a leak. Bend/pull/push on all fuel
> > lines to be sure that it is not a simple cracked fuel line causing your
> > problem.
>
> The fuel would drip from the injector manifold. Like the old cars when
> they flooded. I went to another shop and they tightened all the hoses.
>
> The first shop told me the compression was good. I checked the compression
> and it read 100, 110, 55, 110. Even I know that's NOT good. I'd sure like
> to make it run for a while longer though. Years ago at Precision Tune
> we had an old Chrysler come in with a dead hole. 0 compression. That car
> would squeal the tires no problem, with 7 cylinders.
>
> I called the shop that recommended them and let them know what I have
> found out. They were not too pleased about that shop. I hope they don't
> send too many more that direction.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve

Ron wrote:
> SteveSch wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:50:31 -0600, TomO wrote:
> >
> > <<snip>>
> >
> > > I would be very wary of a so-called mechanic who tells me that 'all the
> > > sensors and the computer' are bad. This person is quite obviously not
> > > troubleshooting anything at all and just plans on throwing parts at your
> > > car with no knowledge of how these parts even work.
> > >
> > > Can he explain what *exactly* is wrong with 'every sensor and the computer'?
> >
> > He just said it was probably because it was jumped. I found it very hard
> > to believe but he was recommended by a shop I trusted.
> >
> > > Some of the scanners will show the the 'snapshot' data captured at the
> > > time the MIL was lit. But I don't think that your '89 will have the
> > > OBD-II controller. You may need to work through the codes that you have
> > > and check each part of the system to figure out what went wrong.
> >
> > I am under the impression that I need an OBD I reader although the manual
> > says DRB II.
> >
> > > You mentioned a loss of fuel efficiency coupled with a smell of gas. The
> > > first thing I would check for is a leak. Bend/pull/push on all fuel
> > > lines to be sure that it is not a simple cracked fuel line causing your
> > > problem.
> >
> > The fuel would drip from the injector manifold. Like the old cars when
> > they flooded. I went to another shop and they tightened all the hoses.
> >
> > The first shop told me the compression was good. I checked the compression
> > and it read 100, 110, 55, 110. Even I know that's NOT good. I'd sure like
> > to make it run for a while longer though. Years ago at Precision Tune
> > we had an old Chrysler come in with a dead hole. 0 compression. That car
> > would squeal the tires no problem, with 7 cylinders.
> >sic<steve,if this engine only has 55 psi in 1 cylinder,you may have a mechanical problem ,burnt valve,cam lobe,rocker arm-etc.which would account for O2 sensor failure.Your vehicle is OBDI and pulling codes with the key is usually same codes with scantool.As for fuel smell,a cylinder with low compression is not burning the fuel charge and will cause fuel odor.Hope this helps, Ron.
> > I called the shop that recommended them and let them know what I have
> > found out. They were not too pleased about that shop. I hope they don't
> > send too many more that direction.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve

SteveSch wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have a problem I hope you can guide me the right direction.
>
> My mother has an 89 Dodge Spirit she just loves. It started going though
> gas like crazy, has gas smell, less power than normal and lopping
> (jerking) when you drive. It eats O2 sensors. Just turns them black with
> carbon.
>
> I know about pulling the codes with the key but all it shows is the O2
> sensor. The manual says the key method doesn't have access to all of the
> codes and I need a reader for that.
>
> I took it to a repair shop. They told me ALL of the sensors on the engine
> were bad as well as the computer. Now I drove the car 26 miles there and
> since then 26 miles back, at approx 70mph. It did jerk at times a little
> but it was driveable. I asked them how this could be possible and they
> mentioned jump starting. Is it possible for this car to be driven in that
> condition? Every sensor including the computer bad.
>
> What is the difference between a 'code reader' and a 'code scanner'?
>
> I am looking at either Actron or Autoxray. I would prefer one that reads
> OBD I and II so I can use it on newer vehicles but they are kind of pricey.
>
> Does a code reader pull more codes than the key method?
>
> Will it give me enough info to know if the computer is bad?
>
> I noticed some check sensors too.
>
> At one time several years ago I did tune-ups for Precision Tune so I am
> not 100% in the dark. I got out of cars before the feds saved us all with
> the emissions. ;-)
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:25:18 -0400, Mike Romain wrote:

> When 'all' the sensors go bad, it normally means the body ground has
> gone bad so the computer doesn't see them. Look for wire mesh straps.
> Lots of times there are a bunch of small black wires bolted onto the
> block around the dipstick that are the grounds for the sensors. This
> connection can also get corroded.
>
> I would sure clean up the cables before spending money.

Hi Mike,

Thanks, I'll check them.

I found rebuilt engines on the web pretty cheap. This one has a weak hole
so I may just get a rebuilt. My mom really wants to keep the car.

I'll check out the rebuilders I found.

Steve

SteveSch wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:50:31 -0600, TomO wrote:
>
> <<snip>>
>
>
>>I would be very wary of a so-called mechanic who tells me that 'all the
>>sensors and the computer' are bad. This person is quite obviously not
>>troubleshooting anything at all and just plans on throwing parts at your
>>car with no knowledge of how these parts even work.
>>
>>Can he explain what *exactly* is wrong with 'every sensor and the computer'?
>
>
> He just said it was probably because it was jumped. I found it very hard
> to believe but he was recommended by a shop I trusted.
>

I've jumped and jumped from plenty of cars without destroying all the
sensors: or even a single one as that goes. Sure, it's possible to do
damage, but to just say that jump starting a car will destroy all the
electronics just goes to prove how little your mechanic knows about
vehicle electronic systems.

>
>>Some of the scanners will show the the 'snapshot' data captured at the
>>time the MIL was lit. But I don't think that your '89 will have the
>>OBD-II controller. You may need to work through the codes that you have
>>and check each part of the system to figure out what went wrong.
>
>
> I am under the impression that I need an OBD I reader although the manual
> says DRB II.
>
>

Go with what the manual says. I don't know what a DRB II is, but I am
severly limited to experience of only the vehicles I have owned.


>>You mentioned a loss of fuel efficiency coupled with a smell of gas. The
>>first thing I would check for is a leak. Bend/pull/push on all fuel
>>lines to be sure that it is not a simple cracked fuel line causing your
>>problem.
>
>
> The fuel would drip from the injector manifold. Like the old cars when
> they flooded. I went to another shop and they tightened all the hoses.
>
> The first shop told me the compression was good. I checked the compression
> and it read 100, 110, 55, 110. Even I know that's NOT good. I'd sure like
> to make it run for a while longer though. Years ago at Precision Tune
> we had an old Chrysler come in with a dead hole. 0 compression. That car
> would squeal the tires no problem, with 7 cylinders.
>
> I called the shop that recommended them and let them know what I have
> found out. They were not too pleased about that shop. I hope they don't
> send too many more that direction.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>


Good Luck! Perhaps it's time for some valve work or a complete software
change?

TomO wrote:
> >>Some of the scanners will show the the 'snapshot' data captured at the
> >>time the MIL was lit. But I don't think that your '89 will have the
> >>OBD-II controller. You may need to work through the codes that you have
> >>and check each part of the system to figure out what went wrong.
> >
> >
> > I am under the impression that I need an OBD I reader although the manual
> > says DRB II.
> >
> >
>
> Go with what the manual says. I don't know what a DRB II is, but I am
> severly limited to experience of only the vehicles I have owned.
>

ODB-II wasn't available until the late 90's - 1996 I think. Most cars
of this vintage will have some way of communicating trouble codes out
by blinking the MIL light. A shop manual for this car would certainly
be able to walk you through this procedure. Also, most cars from of
this age weren't very verbose, so don't worry about getting a bunch of
different codes.

Most parts stores - AutoZone for sure, others maybe - will do an ODB-II
scan for you for free. You might try calling around to see if anyone
can handle an older car like the one you are working on. ODB-II is
nice because it is mostly standardized whereas what came before was a
crapshot of connectors and languages.

Best of luck

Matthew