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How to remove/reinstall crankshaft timing gear



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 7th 05, 03:46 AM
Ryan Underwood
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How to remove/reinstall crankshaft timing gear

Well, for those of you who have kindly responded to my previous questions,
this is becoming a bit of a saga. We obtained a new timing tensioner and
mounting bolt, and the motor is put back together, so I decided to install
the timing belt before doing the valve lash. Got the belt installed
correctly and tensioned fine, so I went to tighten the tensioner bolt...
whoops! Off comes the piece of the oil pump housing that the tensioner
bolt threads into! At this point I'm realizing that the oil pump housing
is just aluminum, and kicking myself for torching the tensioner bolt. I
have a new oil pump ordered and it should be here Monday. It comes with a
new crank seal installed.

So, until Monday, I have the task of removing the crankshaft timing gear.
The factory manual calls for a J 28509-A two-jaw puller. The teardown
manual calls for two screwdrivers, as if the gear will just slide off.

Here is a picture of the oil pump that the gear is outside of:
http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/10/fa/57_1_b.JPG

As you can see, the gear is surrounded at least halfway around by a lip
that protects it from the road. This lip makes it impossible to get a
generic 3-jaw puller around the gear. I have a 2-jaw puller, but the gear
is too close to the oil pump cover to get the puller jaws behind the
gear's flange.

Not having the appropriate puller, I spent the evening with a screwdriver
on either side of the gear, hammering on each alternately from the top.
I may have succeeded in moving the gear about an 1/8 of an inch, but
further effort seems futile.

I'm worried about damaging the main bearing doing this. Should I keep
trying this or not? What about heating the gear, will that hurt anything
aside from the crank seal that is to be replaced anyway? Or should I just
take tomorrow off and buy the puller from GM on Monday?

Then, neither book gives any details about how to reinstall it once I've
replaced the oil pump. Do I just grease it and beat it back on with a
mallet?
Ads
  #2  
Old August 7th 05, 05:24 AM
wws
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ryan Underwood wrote:

> Well, for those of you who have kindly responded to my previous questions,
> this is becoming a bit of a saga. We obtained a new timing tensioner and
> mounting bolt, and the motor is put back together, so I decided to install
> the timing belt before doing the valve lash. Got the belt installed
> correctly and tensioned fine, so I went to tighten the tensioner bolt...
> whoops! Off comes the piece of the oil pump housing that the tensioner
> bolt threads into! At this point I'm realizing that the oil pump housing
> is just aluminum, and kicking myself for torching the tensioner bolt. I
> have a new oil pump ordered and it should be here Monday. It comes with a
> new crank seal installed.
>
> So, until Monday, I have the task of removing the crankshaft timing gear.
> The factory manual calls for a J 28509-A two-jaw puller. The teardown
> manual calls for two screwdrivers, as if the gear will just slide off.
>
> Here is a picture of the oil pump that the gear is outside of:
> http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/10/fa/57_1_b.JPG
>
> As you can see, the gear is surrounded at least halfway around by a lip
> that protects it from the road. This lip makes it impossible to get a
> generic 3-jaw puller around the gear. I have a 2-jaw puller, but the gear
> is too close to the oil pump cover to get the puller jaws behind the
> gear's flange.
>
> Not having the appropriate puller, I spent the evening with a screwdriver
> on either side of the gear, hammering on each alternately from the top.
> I may have succeeded in moving the gear about an 1/8 of an inch, but
> further effort seems futile.
>
> I'm worried about damaging the main bearing doing this. Should I keep
> trying this or not? What about heating the gear, will that hurt anything
> aside from the crank seal that is to be replaced anyway? Or should I just
> take tomorrow off and buy the puller from GM on Monday?
>
> Then, neither book gives any details about how to reinstall it once I've
> replaced the oil pump. Do I just grease it and beat it back on with a
> mallet?

BFH
Break the lip off the broken pump, install puller.
Sometime I have to put a c-clamp on the 2 jaw to hold it together.
Oil for assy. works fine.

wws
  #3  
Old August 7th 05, 03:50 PM
Bruce Chang
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ryan Underwood" > wrote in message
news
> Well, for those of you who have kindly responded to my previous questions,
> this is becoming a bit of a saga. We obtained a new timing tensioner and
> mounting bolt, and the motor is put back together, so I decided to install
> the timing belt before doing the valve lash. Got the belt installed
> correctly and tensioned fine, so I went to tighten the tensioner bolt...
> whoops! Off comes the piece of the oil pump housing that the tensioner
> bolt threads into! At this point I'm realizing that the oil pump housing
> is just aluminum, and kicking myself for torching the tensioner bolt. I
> have a new oil pump ordered and it should be here Monday. It comes with a
> new crank seal installed.
>
> So, until Monday, I have the task of removing the crankshaft timing gear.
> The factory manual calls for a J 28509-A two-jaw puller. The teardown
> manual calls for two screwdrivers, as if the gear will just slide off.
>
> Here is a picture of the oil pump that the gear is outside of:
> http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/10/fa/57_1_b.JPG
>
> As you can see, the gear is surrounded at least halfway around by a lip
> that protects it from the road. This lip makes it impossible to get a
> generic 3-jaw puller around the gear. I have a 2-jaw puller, but the gear
> is too close to the oil pump cover to get the puller jaws behind the
> gear's flange.
>
> Not having the appropriate puller, I spent the evening with a screwdriver
> on either side of the gear, hammering on each alternately from the top.
> I may have succeeded in moving the gear about an 1/8 of an inch, but
> further effort seems futile.
>
> I'm worried about damaging the main bearing doing this. Should I keep
> trying this or not? What about heating the gear, will that hurt anything
> aside from the crank seal that is to be replaced anyway? Or should I just
> take tomorrow off and buy the puller from GM on Monday?
>
> Then, neither book gives any details about how to reinstall it once I've
> replaced the oil pump. Do I just grease it and beat it back on with a
> mallet?


If you've got some space behind the crankshaft gear, why not try a pry bar
now? If you need to get it back on, you need to get successively shorter
bolts that will "pull" (or push, however you want to look at it) the gear
back on. If two screwdrivers are supposed to do the trick, I'd try soaking
it with penetrating oil. Like wws said, I have also used a C-clamp to keep
the jaws from separating while pulling gears and pulleys.

-Good luck,


  #4  
Old August 7th 05, 10:51 PM
Ryan Underwood
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Bruce Chang" > writes:

>If you've got some space behind the crankshaft gear, why not try a pry bar
>now? If you need to get it back on, you need to get successively shorter
>bolts that will "pull" (or push, however you want to look at it) the gear
>back on. If two screwdrivers are supposed to do the trick, I'd try soaking
>it with penetrating oil. Like wws said, I have also used a C-clamp to keep
>the jaws from separating while pulling gears and pulleys.


I finally got it off by repeating the following: heat with propane torch,
spray front and back with pb, tap on face of gear back towards engine, then
alternate beating on screwdrivers wedged behind either side of it. Once it
had moved about 1/3 inch off its seat, I was able to get a regular 2 jaw
puller behind it, and then it just fell off. Unfortunately, the lip of the
gear is destroyed from prying and from a failed pull attempt at the
beginning. So unless it's safe to file off the gear lip entirely, there
goes another 60 bucks. (When installing the new gear, what should I put
under it to avoid it seizing to the crankshaft again?)

So now it's time to remove the broken oil pump. It is bolted to the front
of the block around the crankshaft and is secured with seven bolts. Then
there are two studs on the bottom that go through the lip of the oil pan. I
removed all the bolts and the nuts off the stud, and broke the pump's seal
to the block. The teardown manual seems to indicate that this should be
sufficient to remove the pump housing. (The factory manual does not even
mention removing the nuts at the bottom.)

The problem is that the pump needs to come straight off the crankshaft while
at the same time the pump studs are lifted up out of the oil pan flange. I
am able to get the pump at about a 30 degree angle with the block, but the
studs in the pan cause the pump housing to angle downwards, and there isn't
enough room to get the pump around the crankshaft because of the downward
angle.

So to add insult to injury it appears that the oil pan must be removed,
unless anyone has other ideas how to maneuver both the old and new pump in
this area. Of course, to remove the oil pan, another motor mount must be
removed (I already have the timing mount off), necessitating an engine
hoist, in addition to the suspension crossmember and the front exhaust pipe.
Then it appears that I will need an assistant to hold the oil pan with fresh
RTV to the block while I thread in the bolts. The problem here is that I'm
not sure if I will have enough time to get RTV all around the pan and get it
held up to the block before the first-applied areas of RTV start to set up.
Is the timing here as narrow as it seems? Maybe somebody makes a slow-setup
RTV? (I have permatex red)

My car is extremely mechanic friendly from the top for regular maintenance,
but this other stuff is becoming quickly painful. Are all FWD cars like
this or am I just lucky?

  #5  
Old August 7th 05, 11:33 PM
wws
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ryan Underwood wrote:
> "Bruce Chang" > writes:
>
>
>>If you've got some space behind the crankshaft gear, why not try a pry bar
>>now? If you need to get it back on, you need to get successively shorter
>>bolts that will "pull" (or push, however you want to look at it) the gear
>>back on. If two screwdrivers are supposed to do the trick, I'd try soaking
>>it with penetrating oil. Like wws said, I have also used a C-clamp to keep
>>the jaws from separating while pulling gears and pulleys.

>
>
> I finally got it off by repeating the following: heat with propane torch,
> spray front and back with pb, tap on face of gear back towards engine, then
> alternate beating on screwdrivers wedged behind either side of it. Once it
> had moved about 1/3 inch off its seat, I was able to get a regular 2 jaw
> puller behind it, and then it just fell off. Unfortunately, the lip of the
> gear is destroyed from prying and from a failed pull attempt at the
> beginning. So unless it's safe to file off the gear lip entirely, there
> goes another 60 bucks. (When installing the new gear, what should I put
> under it to avoid it seizing to the crankshaft again?)
>
> So now it's time to remove the broken oil pump. It is bolted to the front
> of the block around the crankshaft and is secured with seven bolts. Then
> there are two studs on the bottom that go through the lip of the oil pan. I
> removed all the bolts and the nuts off the stud, and broke the pump's seal
> to the block. The teardown manual seems to indicate that this should be
> sufficient to remove the pump housing. (The factory manual does not even
> mention removing the nuts at the bottom.)
>
> The problem is that the pump needs to come straight off the crankshaft while
> at the same time the pump studs are lifted up out of the oil pan flange. I
> am able to get the pump at about a 30 degree angle with the block, but the
> studs in the pan cause the pump housing to angle downwards, and there isn't
> enough room to get the pump around the crankshaft because of the downward
> angle.
>
> So to add insult to injury it appears that the oil pan must be removed,
> unless anyone has other ideas how to maneuver both the old and new pump in
> this area. Of course, to remove the oil pan, another motor mount must be
> removed (I already have the timing mount off), necessitating an engine
> hoist, in addition to the suspension crossmember and the front exhaust pipe.
> Then it appears that I will need an assistant to hold the oil pan with fresh
> RTV to the block while I thread in the bolts. The problem here is that I'm
> not sure if I will have enough time to get RTV all around the pan and get it
> held up to the block before the first-applied areas of RTV start to set up.
> Is the timing here as narrow as it seems? Maybe somebody makes a slow-setup
> RTV? (I have permatex red)
>
> My car is extremely mechanic friendly from the top for regular maintenance,
> but this other stuff is becoming quickly painful. Are all FWD cars like
> this or am I just lucky?
>

Get the studs out of the pump any way you can. Visegrips maybe. Or break
them.
Put it back with bolts or screws.
Permatex red is specialty high heat, black is the best for block sealing.
You need a new pulley, use anti-sieze(Permatex) for reassy.

wws
  #6  
Old August 7th 05, 11:51 PM
Steve B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:51:18 -0500, Ryan Underwood
> wrote:


>My car is extremely mechanic friendly from the top for regular maintenance,
>but this other stuff is becoming quickly painful. Are all FWD cars like
>this or am I just lucky?


Man you just can't win on this one. Looking on the bright side at
least you have learned a heck of a lot during this experience. Most
of the problems you have run in to would have been run in to at a shop
as well. They might have been able to deal with them easier but it
still would have added to the repair bill.

There is at least a fighting chance that you can just loosen the oil
pan bolts and drop the pan down enough to clear the studs. Usually
when I replace an oil pan gasket I don't use RTV on it. I just use
enough to tack the gasket down in a few spots so it won't get out of
place while putting the pan back up. The manufacturer didn't use RTV
and it did not leak.

I can't offer any help on your other problem. Sorry

Steve B.
  #7  
Old August 8th 05, 12:57 AM
Ryan Underwood
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wws > writes:

>Get the studs out of the pump any way you can. Visegrips maybe. Or break
>them.


That advice made my day. I got a death grip on the studs with red channel
locks (note: blue channel locks insufficient :-) ), cracked em loose (what a
great sound), and they turned right out. Where's your tip jar?

>Put it back with bolts or screws.


You betcha.

>Permatex red is specialty high heat, black is the best for block sealing.


For oil sealing or for all sealing? I used permatex red on the thermostat
housing on the cylinder head. It appears that whoever did the water pump
used something black on it. The oil pan and pump had red sealant of some
kind. When I put the pump back on I will use black as you suggest.

I think I bent the flange of the oil pan a little bit - what's the best way
to correct that, or will it self-correct when the new pump is installed?

Should I pack the new pump with vaseline as the teardown manual states?
Factory manual says nothing but that may be assumed.

>You need a new pulley, use anti-sieze(Permatex) for reassy.


Aye aye.

That tensioner through hole on the oil pump looks to be a very bad design to
me. On the new one, I'd like to use loctite as was suggested earlier to
avoid stressing that point (I found someone else whose broke off in the same
way, his broke while driving and made a real mess of things). How can I
manage the tensioner installation and adjustment with loctite? Will it give
me enough time to make any final belt adjustments before it sets up? And,
will RED loctite become 'unlocked' by heating the bolt in the future, or is
that only a property of blue loctite?

This group is one of the most excellent resources on the internet and this
is at least the third time this week I have been saved with a timely piece
of advice. Thanks!

  #8  
Old August 8th 05, 02:55 AM
Ryan Underwood
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Steve B. > writes:

>Man you just can't win on this one. Looking on the bright side at
>least you have learned a heck of a lot during this experience. Most
>of the problems you have run in to would have been run in to at a shop
>as well. They might have been able to deal with them easier but it
>still would have added to the repair bill.


Yeah. If I didn't have the opportunity to do it myself I would have junked
the car a while ago. Even doing it myself it's been way more expensive than
I predicted. There is the learning aspect of it too obviously, but I'm
forced to ask myself: is any of the knowledge I've acquired anything I have
a taste for ever using again? ;-)

I mean for real, how many manufacturers both use a weird ass bolt in the
timing tensioner AND mount it into an easily broken place? If it wasn't for
that rounded bolt I would have been driving last Tuesday. Everything else
I've had to buy and do is pursuant to that one damn bolt and the cretin who
rounded it off for me: new bolt, new tensioner, new oil pump, new crank
timing gear. Around $300 in unforeseen costs - almost enough for a new
beater!

Not to mention using a week of vacation to work on a stupid car. Not that
turning a wrench isn't relaxing in some ways, but having to continually beg
for help on the internet with the latest frustrating problem gets old quick.
It's funny how real-life friends with mechanical ability seem to make
themselves especially scarce when you've got something you could really use
help with.

At least I know I haven't taken any shortcuts or put any questionable/broken
crap back in there. That's more than I can say for most people who I've
*paid* to work on my car... for example:

I had an alignment at D***s about a year ago when I put a new steering rack
on. They twisted up my steering boots, and then tried to tell me that the
boots don't matter when I told them to fix it. I became fed up with arguing
with their service manager and straightened the boots out myself.

Then earlier this year before my head gasket leak was identified, I put new
struts, ball joints, tie rod ends, and bushings on my front end, then had an
alignment done at Pl**a T**e. I specifically instructed them to fix the
steering boots once they were done setting the toe and they said they would.
Well the alignment fixed things up so nice, I was really enjoying driving,
and I didn't even look at the boots until now when I got the car up on
jackstands to do the head gasket. They were twisted. I straightened them
out again (why is this *my* job?) Lo and behold, one of them has a hole
ripped in it from being bound up. So now I get to replace at least one boot
(probably will do both) because someone at a national chain didn't do their
damn job - *again*. Oh, and one of my camber wedges is missing since the
last alignment. Did it fall out on the road, or did they just forget to put
it back in as I should expect?

The only shop I've had luck with is a local Autocraft. It is run by an old
timer who is sometimes hard to communicate with (too much solvents?) but
they have always charged a price that is beyond fair, and I have never had
reason to question any of the work they have done. Unfortunately they only
do suspension and exhaust work and are sometimes way too busy to get anyone
in for several days ahead.

>There is at least a fighting chance that you can just loosen the oil
>pan bolts and drop the pan down enough to clear the studs.


Fortunately that problem's done with. I used channel locks to get the studs
out as another poster suggested and the pump is off. (woo.. my main bearing
looks neato in there)

I will have the new pump in hand tomorrow, clean off the block and the piece
of oil pan it mounts to, install new o-rings to the oil passages (should I
spray them out with brake cleaner while I have the opportunity?), and use
permatex black to seal the pump as recommended here. (It appears that the
new pump will arrive as a sealed unit so hopefully it will be already
primed.) Then the timing gear will go on with anti-seize, timing belt put
on, valves adjusted on the new head, the oil replaced, and I will wait
overnight for the RTV to completely set up before attempting to start the
car FINALLY.

>Usually when I replace an oil pan gasket I don't use RTV on it. I just use
>enough to tack the gasket down in a few spots so it won't get out of place
>while putting the pan back up.


That's what's suggested in the manual, but other people with the same car
have complained about the cork OEM gaskets leaking if installed according to
the instructions.

>The manufacturer didn't use RTV and it did not leak.


I'm not sure what the manufacturer used. The current state of the oil pan
is that it definitely has some kind of red or orange sealer all around the
flange, and fortunately it has never leaked while I've owned the car.
Hopefully I'll be able to avoid dropping the oil pan since the pump is off
now.

Thanks Steve.

  #9  
Old August 8th 05, 03:03 AM
wws
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ryan Underwood wrote:
> wws > writes:
>
>
>>Get the studs out of the pump any way you can. Visegrips maybe. Or break
>>them.

>
>
> That advice made my day. I got a death grip on the studs with red channel
> locks (note: blue channel locks insufficient :-) ), cracked em loose (what a
> great sound), and they turned right out. Where's your tip jar?


Just throw it in the top of my box, Thanks!
>
>
>>Put it back with bolts or screws.

>
>
> You betcha.
>
>
>>Permatex red is specialty high heat, black is the best for block sealing.

>
>
> For oil sealing or for all sealing? I used permatex red on the thermostat
> housing on the cylinder head. It appears that whoever did the water pump
> used something black on it. The oil pan and pump had red sealant of some
> kind. When I put the pump back on I will use black as you suggest.


I just use the black for everything. Red maybe for marine watercooled
exhaust flanges.
A LIGHT coat on the gaskets,(it may dry a little but thats ok, it swells
when it gets oil on it, and wet dobs in the corners right before you
mount it.
>
> I think I bent the flange of the oil pan a little bit - what's the best way
> to correct that, or will it self-correct when the new pump is installed?


Hit it with a hammer.
Tighten that one last and it will pull up. Just don't strip it out,
Maybe a little extra silicone there.
>
> Should I pack the new pump with vaseline as the teardown manual states?
> Factory manual says nothing but that may be assumed.


Pack it Yes.Might melt a little, just do your best.
>
>
>>You need a new pulley, use anti-sieze(Permatex) for reassy.

>
>
> Aye aye.
>
> That tensioner through hole on the oil pump looks to be a very bad design to
> me. On the new one, I'd like to use loctite as was suggested earlier to
> avoid stressing that point (I found someone else whose broke off in the same
> way, his broke while driving and made a real mess of things). How can I
> manage the tensioner installation and adjustment with loctite? Will it give
> me enough time to make any final belt adjustments before it sets up? And,
> will RED loctite become 'unlocked' by heating the bolt in the future, or is
> that only a property of blue loctite?


I use whatever allows hand tool removal. Use A Torque Wrench. With a new
bolt and a 6 point socket it will not be a problem. Even if you have to
readjust it.
>
> This group is one of the most excellent resources on the internet and this
> is at least the third time this week I have been saved with a timely piece
> of advice. Thanks!
>

What torque?
Wellll, lessee. Thats 10mm? What does the book say?

wws

  #10  
Old August 8th 05, 04:40 AM
Ryan Underwood
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wws > writes:

>I just use the black for everything. Red maybe for marine watercooled
>exhaust flanges.
>A LIGHT coat on the gaskets


No gaskets - just block surface and oil pan flange, which will be clean metal once I scrape off the existing RTV.

>,(it may dry a little but thats ok, it swells when it gets oil on it, and
>wet dobs in the corners right before you mount it.


Sounds good.

>> Should I pack the new pump with vaseline as the teardown manual states?
>> Factory manual says nothing but that may be assumed.


>Pack it Yes.Might melt a little, just do your best.


Looks like the new one will come sealed so I've got to hope they include
instructions on what to do. From reading it appears that motors with crank
mounted oil pumps are difficult to prime so hopefully I don't have to do
anything... the car has been sitting for 2 weeks however and a month is
supposedly the point where the bearings start to dry out.

>I use whatever allows hand tool removal. Use A Torque Wrench. With a new
>bolt and a 6 point socket it will not be a problem. Even if you have to
>readjust it.

....
>What torque?
>Wellll, lessee. Thats 10mm? What does the book say?


Well, it's a 12 point bolt - one of five on the car (other four are 8mm on
the throttle body). I believe that the original problem was a cretin with a
6 point socket and air gun from how the bolt head looked, and how the bolt
just fell out of the hole once I ground off teh head.

The book calls for 37 lb/ft of torque, but I was at about 10 lb/ft on my
torque wrench when the original oil pump broke to the tune of $160. That's
why I'm giving serious consideration to loctiting the bolt into the new pump
instead of torquing it. IMHO it is a terrible design to have the tensioner
bolt thread into the aluminum pump housing instead of into the block, but now
I'm 'all in' on this car unfortunately so I've got to fix it and drive
regardless of how I feel about it.

 




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