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1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 18th 06, 06:10 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Casper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

First off, thanks to Mike Romain and DougW for thier input and help
previously. It's been a while, so if you do not remember, that's cool.
Doug might remember putting up pictures I posted on his website of my
post-accident '93 GCL (red).

Here is the saga since my last post...

Would you believe I still DO NOT have my jeep back? Yep! It's been
over 9 months and my jeep is still not back in my drivveway and
working! Originally I posted in this group about some problems I had
starting the jeep where the "check engine" light was failing to light.
This was after the first trip to the body shop where they put on the
wrong rear hatch and parts!

Everytime the CE light failed, there was no voltage to the fuel pump
and no start. Everytime the CE light came on, the jeep started. So
what happend you ask? Well, some months later, along with 4 spark plug
changes (would you believe the master mechanics said the Bosch plugs
are cheap and foul easily?), a Crank Position Sensor, a wiring
harness, a coil and a computer later, it stil isn't running!

Right now, the jeep sometimes starts, but hard start. You can smell
gas when it doesn't start and it appears to be flooded. The spark
plugs are fouling in just a couple of miles of driving. If it does
start (and sometimes it will not), it might run ok, or bad right from
the start. Sometimes it runs ok for a short while, then gets rougher
and rougher until it stalls out. Occasionally, if it doesn't start
right off the first key turn, if you quickly press the gas pedal just
a hair, it will start (hard).

So the dealership it went to so it could be put on the MDS machine
says it's the CPS and somewhat low fuel pressure, but they don't tell
me the no longer use the MDS until after the diagnostics. WTF?

The original mechanic (who replaced the CPS and PCM) says he can't
figure it out, but the plugs foul (cheap Bosch!) and seems flooded.

Now I am not a genius, but my thinking here is if I brough my jeep to
you and it was running fine, and I got it back running bad or not
running at all, and not once, but twice and worse each time, does it
not make sense to look at what you REPLACED???

My thinking here is MAYBE the junk yard PCM you replaced my original
with is either bad or improperly programed. Maybe for a V8 or
different year? Or maybe it cannot communicate with a sensor??

So... I gotta know what you all think of this saga. Cause I have to
tell you, if it's not resolved soon or my vehicle replaced by the
insurance company (guy who rear-eneded me) soon, I may go postal!

Any HO's on the problem(s)? I miss my jeep!!!!

`Casper
Ads
  #2  
Old August 18th 06, 02:04 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Mike Romain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,760
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

Wow......

I too would be suspecting the junkyard brain. Maybe a 'new' one would
be in order.

And FYI, I know that some 258 and apparently some 4.0 engines won't run
on bosch plugs. The plugs foul black very quickly and the engine misses
like a bugger. When I switch them to Champion plugs they run fine.

I likely mentioned this before, but when you have a missing or broken
ground path, the vehicle can steal grounds through things like gas
cables and radios and shifters and brake pedals. This normally causes
all kinds of seemingly unrelated issues usually computer or sensor
related. One main computer ground tag point is usually a bolt into the
block near the dipstick. There are a mess of black wires there.
Sometimes one gets dropped out when it gets hooked up.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Casper wrote:
>
> First off, thanks to Mike Romain and DougW for thier input and help
> previously. It's been a while, so if you do not remember, that's cool.
> Doug might remember putting up pictures I posted on his website of my
> post-accident '93 GCL (red).
>
> Here is the saga since my last post...
>
> Would you believe I still DO NOT have my jeep back? Yep! It's been
> over 9 months and my jeep is still not back in my drivveway and
> working! Originally I posted in this group about some problems I had
> starting the jeep where the "check engine" light was failing to light.
> This was after the first trip to the body shop where they put on the
> wrong rear hatch and parts!
>
> Everytime the CE light failed, there was no voltage to the fuel pump
> and no start. Everytime the CE light came on, the jeep started. So
> what happend you ask? Well, some months later, along with 4 spark plug
> changes (would you believe the master mechanics said the Bosch plugs
> are cheap and foul easily?), a Crank Position Sensor, a wiring
> harness, a coil and a computer later, it stil isn't running!
>
> Right now, the jeep sometimes starts, but hard start. You can smell
> gas when it doesn't start and it appears to be flooded. The spark
> plugs are fouling in just a couple of miles of driving. If it does
> start (and sometimes it will not), it might run ok, or bad right from
> the start. Sometimes it runs ok for a short while, then gets rougher
> and rougher until it stalls out. Occasionally, if it doesn't start
> right off the first key turn, if you quickly press the gas pedal just
> a hair, it will start (hard).
>
> So the dealership it went to so it could be put on the MDS machine
> says it's the CPS and somewhat low fuel pressure, but they don't tell
> me the no longer use the MDS until after the diagnostics. WTF?
>
> The original mechanic (who replaced the CPS and PCM) says he can't
> figure it out, but the plugs foul (cheap Bosch!) and seems flooded.
>
> Now I am not a genius, but my thinking here is if I brough my jeep to
> you and it was running fine, and I got it back running bad or not
> running at all, and not once, but twice and worse each time, does it
> not make sense to look at what you REPLACED???
>
> My thinking here is MAYBE the junk yard PCM you replaced my original
> with is either bad or improperly programed. Maybe for a V8 or
> different year? Or maybe it cannot communicate with a sensor??
>
> So... I gotta know what you all think of this saga. Cause I have to
> tell you, if it's not resolved soon or my vehicle replaced by the
> insurance company (guy who rear-eneded me) soon, I may go postal!
>
> Any HO's on the problem(s)? I miss my jeep!!!!
>
> `Casper

  #3  
Old August 18th 06, 03:17 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Casper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

>Wow......
>
>I too would be suspecting the junkyard brain. Maybe a 'new' one would
>be in order.


Yeah, it is definitly a suspect. I hope to know either later today or
in the next couple of days. Since I have access to a newer one (not
new tho), I am hoping that will help resolve things if it's needed.

>And FYI, I know that some 258 and apparently some 4.0 engines won't run
>on bosch plugs. The plugs foul black very quickly and the engine misses
>like a bugger. When I switch them to Champion plugs they run fine.


I have heard that, but have been using the Bosch for a number of years
on several of my vehicles and have yet to see this occur, until just
now. I'd be in agreement if it weren't for the fact that the other
plug brands are also fouling right now in the Jeep.

>I likely mentioned this before, but when you have a missing or broken
>ground path, the vehicle can steal grounds through things like gas
>cables and radios and shifters and brake pedals. This normally causes
>all kinds of seemingly unrelated issues usually computer or sensor
>related. One main computer ground tag point is usually a bolt into the
>block near the dipstick. There are a mess of black wires there.
>Sometimes one gets dropped out when it gets hooked up.
>Mike


Yep, went over this near the beginning of this saga. Checked them over
several times and found nothing. Although, since I know some of the
wiring has been replaced due to damage/shorting in the accident, I
keep reminding the mechanics that there still may be something they
have yet to locate.

Another concern mentioned to me was that the CPS (Crank Position
Sensor) may have a shim issue and or been damaged. I'm not too
familiar with how the vehicle can react with a damamged one, but I am
hoping this has also been looked at. I've got one mechanic saying his
tests show it's bad and a second mechanic saying it's good. Bear in
mind, it's already been replaced once, same time as the PCM.

Thanks for the input Mike!

`Casper

I plan to post what the final outcome is so hopefully no one else will
ever have to go thru this and glean some useful information from my
problems and saga.
  #4  
Old August 18th 06, 06:05 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Mike Romain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,760
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

When the CPS goes bad, the vehicle usually up and dies. The plug and
socket for it can and do get dirty though, but again that usually causes
a stall. There are no shims on it, it just fits in one spot. People do
try to alter it for modified vehicles, but that isn't normal use.

Mike

Casper wrote:
>
> >Wow......
> >
> >I too would be suspecting the junkyard brain. Maybe a 'new' one would
> >be in order.

>
> Yeah, it is definitly a suspect. I hope to know either later today or
> in the next couple of days. Since I have access to a newer one (not
> new tho), I am hoping that will help resolve things if it's needed.
>
> >And FYI, I know that some 258 and apparently some 4.0 engines won't run
> >on bosch plugs. The plugs foul black very quickly and the engine misses
> >like a bugger. When I switch them to Champion plugs they run fine.

>
> I have heard that, but have been using the Bosch for a number of years
> on several of my vehicles and have yet to see this occur, until just
> now. I'd be in agreement if it weren't for the fact that the other
> plug brands are also fouling right now in the Jeep.
>
> >I likely mentioned this before, but when you have a missing or broken
> >ground path, the vehicle can steal grounds through things like gas
> >cables and radios and shifters and brake pedals. This normally causes
> >all kinds of seemingly unrelated issues usually computer or sensor
> >related. One main computer ground tag point is usually a bolt into the
> >block near the dipstick. There are a mess of black wires there.
> >Sometimes one gets dropped out when it gets hooked up.
> >Mike

>
> Yep, went over this near the beginning of this saga. Checked them over
> several times and found nothing. Although, since I know some of the
> wiring has been replaced due to damage/shorting in the accident, I
> keep reminding the mechanics that there still may be something they
> have yet to locate.
>
> Another concern mentioned to me was that the CPS (Crank Position
> Sensor) may have a shim issue and or been damaged. I'm not too
> familiar with how the vehicle can react with a damamged one, but I am
> hoping this has also been looked at. I've got one mechanic saying his
> tests show it's bad and a second mechanic saying it's good. Bear in
> mind, it's already been replaced once, same time as the PCM.
>
> Thanks for the input Mike!
>
> `Casper
>
> I plan to post what the final outcome is so hopefully no one else will
> ever have to go thru this and glean some useful information from my
> problems and saga.

  #5  
Old August 18th 06, 08:06 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
billy ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 987
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

Jeep uses 2 (at least) types of CPS units.

http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes...tml#CPSdetails

There is the one type that is secured by one bolt, that must be adjusted for
clearance with the paper spacer that comes with the new unit..

The other type is secured with 2 bolts and does not require adjustment.


"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
> When the CPS goes bad, the vehicle usually up and dies. The plug and
> socket for it can and do get dirty though, but again that usually causes
> a stall. There are no shims on it, it just fits in one spot. People do
> try to alter it for modified vehicles, but that isn't normal use.
>
> Mike
>
> Casper wrote:
>>
>> >Wow......
>> >
>> >I too would be suspecting the junkyard brain. Maybe a 'new' one would
>> >be in order.

>>
>> Yeah, it is definitly a suspect. I hope to know either later today or
>> in the next couple of days. Since I have access to a newer one (not
>> new tho), I am hoping that will help resolve things if it's needed.
>>
>> >And FYI, I know that some 258 and apparently some 4.0 engines won't run
>> >on bosch plugs. The plugs foul black very quickly and the engine misses
>> >like a bugger. When I switch them to Champion plugs they run fine.

>>
>> I have heard that, but have been using the Bosch for a number of years
>> on several of my vehicles and have yet to see this occur, until just
>> now. I'd be in agreement if it weren't for the fact that the other
>> plug brands are also fouling right now in the Jeep.
>>
>> >I likely mentioned this before, but when you have a missing or broken
>> >ground path, the vehicle can steal grounds through things like gas
>> >cables and radios and shifters and brake pedals. This normally causes
>> >all kinds of seemingly unrelated issues usually computer or sensor
>> >related. One main computer ground tag point is usually a bolt into the
>> >block near the dipstick. There are a mess of black wires there.
>> >Sometimes one gets dropped out when it gets hooked up.
>> >Mike

>>
>> Yep, went over this near the beginning of this saga. Checked them over
>> several times and found nothing. Although, since I know some of the
>> wiring has been replaced due to damage/shorting in the accident, I
>> keep reminding the mechanics that there still may be something they
>> have yet to locate.
>>
>> Another concern mentioned to me was that the CPS (Crank Position
>> Sensor) may have a shim issue and or been damaged. I'm not too
>> familiar with how the vehicle can react with a damamged one, but I am
>> hoping this has also been looked at. I've got one mechanic saying his
>> tests show it's bad and a second mechanic saying it's good. Bear in
>> mind, it's already been replaced once, same time as the PCM.
>>
>> Thanks for the input Mike!
>>
>> `Casper
>>
>> I plan to post what the final outcome is so hopefully no one else will
>> ever have to go thru this and glean some useful information from my
>> problems and saga.



  #6  
Old August 19th 06, 04:13 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Casper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

>"billy ray" was heard to say...
>Jeep uses 2 (at least) types of CPS units.
>http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes...tml#CPSdetails
>
>There is the one type that is secured by one bolt, that must be adjusted for
>clearance with the paper spacer that comes with the new unit..
>
>The other type is secured with 2 bolts and does not require adjustment.


The later is the version on my jeep. I said shim but meant spacer. I
know if the spacer isn't right when the replacement is installed, it
can completely ruin the new CPS.

Right now we're still testing and tracing as much as possible but
coming up empty. We're still leaning towards a mis-matched or
mis-programmed PCM.

Anyone ever hear of paint particles from autobody work getting into
the sensors and causing problems?

`Casper

>>"Mike Romain" wrote in message
>> When the CPS goes bad, the vehicle usually up and dies. The plug and
>> socket for it can and do get dirty though, but again that usually causes
>> a stall. There are no shims on it, it just fits in one spot. People do
>> try to alter it for modified vehicles, but that isn't normal use.

  #7  
Old August 19th 06, 04:32 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Mike Romain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,760
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

Silicone RTV fumes can kill O2 sensors faster than you can blink. They
now make the more expensive 'sensor safe' silicone RTV. If you have
fresh silicone anywhere near the engine it could cause continuing
troubles.

I can't see how paint can get at sensors, but it could interfere with
some.

The only CPS's 'I' am familiar with just bolt in. There are no
spacers. I haven't seen that many though.

Mike

Casper wrote:
>
> >"billy ray" was heard to say...
> >Jeep uses 2 (at least) types of CPS units.
> >http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes...tml#CPSdetails
> >
> >There is the one type that is secured by one bolt, that must be adjusted for
> >clearance with the paper spacer that comes with the new unit..
> >
> >The other type is secured with 2 bolts and does not require adjustment.

>
> The later is the version on my jeep. I said shim but meant spacer. I
> know if the spacer isn't right when the replacement is installed, it
> can completely ruin the new CPS.
>
> Right now we're still testing and tracing as much as possible but
> coming up empty. We're still leaning towards a mis-matched or
> mis-programmed PCM.
>
> Anyone ever hear of paint particles from autobody work getting into
> the sensors and causing problems?
>
> `Casper
>
> >>"Mike Romain" wrote in message
> >> When the CPS goes bad, the vehicle usually up and dies. The plug and
> >> socket for it can and do get dirty though, but again that usually causes
> >> a stall. There are no shims on it, it just fits in one spot. People do
> >> try to alter it for modified vehicles, but that isn't normal use.

  #8  
Old August 19th 06, 06:15 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
DougW
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 911
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

Casper wrote:

> Anyone ever hear of paint particles from autobody work getting into
> the sensors and causing problems?


The only sensor that can be affected by gas is the O2 sensor.
RTV especially. I'm not sure anything but epoxy based paint
would cause problems. Hardly anyone uses epoxy paint anyway.

The rest of them are basically immune or hanging off of vac lines
with no exposure.


--
DougW


  #9  
Old August 19th 06, 11:01 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Lon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 700
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

After swapping to Champions, add a fat ground braid between the body
near the battery and a nice big bolt on the engine. If that doesn't do
it, maybe the brain and or coil is just too weak to spark.


Mike Romain proclaimed:

> When the CPS goes bad, the vehicle usually up and dies. The plug and
> socket for it can and do get dirty though, but again that usually causes
> a stall. There are no shims on it, it just fits in one spot. People do
> try to alter it for modified vehicles, but that isn't normal use.
>
> Mike
>
> Casper wrote:
>
>>>Wow......
>>>
>>>I too would be suspecting the junkyard brain. Maybe a 'new' one would
>>>be in order.

>>
>>Yeah, it is definitly a suspect. I hope to know either later today or
>>in the next couple of days. Since I have access to a newer one (not
>>new tho), I am hoping that will help resolve things if it's needed.
>>
>>
>>>And FYI, I know that some 258 and apparently some 4.0 engines won't run
>>>on bosch plugs. The plugs foul black very quickly and the engine misses
>>>like a bugger. When I switch them to Champion plugs they run fine.

>>
>>I have heard that, but have been using the Bosch for a number of years
>>on several of my vehicles and have yet to see this occur, until just
>>now. I'd be in agreement if it weren't for the fact that the other
>>plug brands are also fouling right now in the Jeep.
>>
>>
>>>I likely mentioned this before, but when you have a missing or broken
>>>ground path, the vehicle can steal grounds through things like gas
>>>cables and radios and shifters and brake pedals. This normally causes
>>>all kinds of seemingly unrelated issues usually computer or sensor
>>>related. One main computer ground tag point is usually a bolt into the
>>>block near the dipstick. There are a mess of black wires there.
>>>Sometimes one gets dropped out when it gets hooked up.
>>>Mike

>>
>>Yep, went over this near the beginning of this saga. Checked them over
>>several times and found nothing. Although, since I know some of the
>>wiring has been replaced due to damage/shorting in the accident, I
>>keep reminding the mechanics that there still may be something they
>>have yet to locate.
>>
>>Another concern mentioned to me was that the CPS (Crank Position
>>Sensor) may have a shim issue and or been damaged. I'm not too
>>familiar with how the vehicle can react with a damamged one, but I am
>>hoping this has also been looked at. I've got one mechanic saying his
>>tests show it's bad and a second mechanic saying it's good. Bear in
>>mind, it's already been replaced once, same time as the PCM.
>>
>>Thanks for the input Mike!
>>
>>`Casper
>>
>>I plan to post what the final outcome is so hopefully no one else will
>>ever have to go thru this and glean some useful information from my
>>problems and saga.

  #10  
Old August 20th 06, 05:31 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
bllsht[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!

In message >, "Casper" wrote:

>First off, thanks to Mike Romain and DougW for thier input and help
>previously. It's been a while, so if you do not remember, that's cool.
>Doug might remember putting up pictures I posted on his website of my
>post-accident '93 GCL (red).
>
>Here is the saga since my last post...
>
>Would you believe I still DO NOT have my jeep back? Yep! It's been
>over 9 months and my jeep is still not back in my drivveway and
>working! Originally I posted in this group about some problems I had
>starting the jeep where the "check engine" light was failing to light.
>This was after the first trip to the body shop where they put on the
>wrong rear hatch and parts!
>
>Everytime the CE light failed, there was no voltage to the fuel pump
>and no start. Everytime the CE light came on, the jeep started. So
>what happend you ask? Well, some months later, along with 4 spark plug
>changes (would you believe the master mechanics said the Bosch plugs
>are cheap and foul easily?), a Crank Position Sensor, a wiring
>harness, a coil and a computer later, it stil isn't running!


Bosch plugs are crap. If you have one of their universal fit, splice in, POS O2
sensors, throw that away too.

Has anyone verified a problem with any of the parts you replaced, or are we
using the shotgun approach?

Has the check engine light problem been resolved? If not, you need to start
there, since it indicates a problem with the PCM grounds, power feeds or the PCM
it's self.


>Right now, the jeep sometimes starts, but hard start. You can smell
>gas when it doesn't start and it appears to be flooded. The spark
>plugs are fouling in just a couple of miles of driving. If it does
>start (and sometimes it will not), it might run ok, or bad right from
>the start. Sometimes it runs ok for a short while, then gets rougher
>and rougher until it stalls out. Occasionally, if it doesn't start
>right off the first key turn, if you quickly press the gas pedal just
>a hair, it will start (hard).
>
>So the dealership it went to so it could be put on the MDS machine
>says it's the CPS and somewhat low fuel pressure, but they don't tell
>me the no longer use the MDS until after the diagnostics. WTF?


First, MDS doesn't even exist anymore. Second, even if it did, it wouldn't do
you any good. You need somebody who knows what he's doing to diagnose it.

>
>The original mechanic (who replaced the CPS and PCM) says he can't
>figure it out, but the plugs foul (cheap Bosch!) and seems flooded.
>
>Now I am not a genius, but my thinking here is if I brough my jeep to
>you and it was running fine, and I got it back running bad or not
>running at all, and not once, but twice and worse each time, does it
>not make sense to look at what you REPLACED???
>
>My thinking here is MAYBE the junk yard PCM you replaced my original
>with is either bad or improperly programed. Maybe for a V8 or
>different year? Or maybe it cannot communicate with a sensor??
>
>So... I gotta know what you all think of this saga. Cause I have to
>tell you, if it's not resolved soon or my vehicle replaced by the
>insurance company (guy who rear-eneded me) soon, I may go postal!
>
>Any HO's on the problem(s)? I miss my jeep!!!!


As I see it, you have 2 choices.

1) Take it to somebody who knows what he's doing.

2) Go postal.

>
>`Casper

 




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