How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie advised:

> Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to
> left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4".

Thanks for the detail, as all the holes I patched were screws or bolts, so,
they're pretty small, and, as others said, all were within the "tread"
area.

> Also,
> low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over
> higher sidewall tires.

That's interesting as I can infer from that the lower-profile tires have a
slightly greater area of patchability, all other things being equal.


> Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread
> portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere
> along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.

That's interesting that the patch can go to very edge of the tread.
I had previously thought it could only go in the "middle" of the tread.

> A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also
> recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is
> important to ensure that proper prep is performed.

I knew about patchplugs, but I didn't have any so I made my own patchplug
with a plug first, cut flush, and then a patch.

Seems to me, in the end, the kind of patch and then plug that I did should
work though, as they're essentially the same thing in the end, right?

> In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need
> to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside.

Thanks. I actually knew that (but you didn't know I knew that). I was
removing the tire anyway, so as to get experience with breaking the bead
and reseating the bead.

So I plugged it first from the outside, and then patched it from the
inside. Seems to me that should be good enough for government work, but I
don't know (which is why I ask).

> There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas,
> a patch/plug is better.

I agree a single-piece patch-plug is better than either a patch or a plug
alone. I suspect a two-piece patch-and-then-plug is still better than
either a patch or a plug alone.

Does that also make sense to you?

> http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id= 8800005007
> if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside
> out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out
> from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes.

That does seem like a far more elegant solution than the path-and-then-plug
that I came up with on my own.

> http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/imag...5727864-24.jpg
> You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some
> straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the
> area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush
> with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem.

Thank you for that advice. I figured it had to be flush, but your argument
that it doesn't need to be flush as it may seal better not being flush and
that it will wear with the tire makes sense.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:52:29 -0500, advised:

> And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause
> problems with tread squirm and tire integrety.

Hi Clare,

I patched five tires with the goopy string plugs, and then cut them flush
on both sides, and then put a patch on top of the plugs.

I know they sell a one-piece patch-plug, but that seemed like overkill for
my tests so I just wonder what you recommend for two-piece plugs if a
one-piece patch-plug isn't around.

Would you do it the way I did it, or differently?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:25:31 -0500, Meanie advised:

> Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or
> painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or
> plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet
> to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event.

I realize you're talking to Clare, but I want to say I agree with you that
warnings such as "don't run with scissors" are great, but they're
essentially useless because nobody ever gets hurt while running with
scissors (so to speak).

Specifically, Clare told me that my patch is a "disaster waiting to
happen", which, other than the treadwear, I don't see where he gets that
from.

Sure, I didn't use a single-piece patchplug, but, my question is whether
anyone sees a *safety* issue with the way I did these tires?

a. Is the patch too large or too small?
b. Is the goopy plug a safety issue?
c. Is the location on the tire a safety issue.

Other than treadwear, I don't (yet) see any safety issues with my repairs.


> Not
> saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I
> won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in
> place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and
> warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk.

Again, I agree with you. It's like that warning on plastic bags not to
suffocate people with them. They're not useful for someone who is thinking
about what they're doing.

Which is what I'm trying to do here.

> I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money
> while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford
> to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good
> product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but
> it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the
> 100% success rate thus far.

In an emergency, you'll be glad you have those skills!
I'm trying to obtain those skills now, before the emergency too.

On 12/21/16 2:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:
>
>> Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
>> dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)
>
> That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.
>
> Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do
> something that I *should* be able to do at home.
>
> We should all be able to:
> a. Mount and dismount a tire at home
> b. Patch a tire at home
> c. Balance a wheel at home
>
> I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be
> better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have).
>
>SNIP
>
> Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome
> because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is
> not going to be helpful).
>
>

Guess everyone needs a hobby ;-)

--
You can’t get rich in politics unless you’re a crook.
- President Harry Truman

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:25:31 -0500, Meanie > wrote:

>On 12/21/2016 5:18 PM, wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie > wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:
>>>>
>>>>> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
>>>>> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
>>>>> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
>>>>> be a reason it will fail.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking.
>>>> How close can you get to the edge, and, why.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to
>>> left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a
>>> repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area.
>>> My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires
>>> in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and
>>> because service shops will not or just to save a few buck.
>>>
>>> Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they
>>> differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive
>>> brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls
>>> than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also,
>>> low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over
>>> higher sidewall tires.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am assuming it flexes more at the edges.
>>>> I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.
>>>
>>> Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread
>>> portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere
>>> along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.
>>
>> Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is
>> manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge"
>> on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a
>> non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge
>> of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture
>> Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder
>> of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of
>> the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt
>> area.
>>
>> A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go -
>> even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to
>> our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding
>> tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished.
>
>
>I agree about the damage a tire can do
>
>Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or
>painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or
>plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet
>to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event. Not
>saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I
>won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in
>place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and
>warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk.
>
>I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money
>while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford
>to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good
>product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but
>it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the
>100% success rate thus far.
a repaired Michelin X came apart on a friend's Rover 2000 sedan in
Zambia and it took the rear febser and wheelwell apart. The rear tire
in my brothers Dodge Aspenn (a Zeta 40M from UniRoyal - back in 1972)
lost it's belt at 70mph on the Burlington Ontario Skyway bridge and
did a lot of damage and almost killed him. I've seen tires with the
steel belt badly rusted and kicked over an inch to the side without
coming apart - but the tire wagged the car like a dog's tail..
When you do something dangerous it usually DOES work just fine - until
it doesn't.
That said, the warnings ARE there to protect the manufacturer - and
are followed by concientious businesses to keep their liability
insurance rates low enough to be able to stay in business.

Repairing your own tires is your own risk, primarily.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:10:12 -0000, Frank Baron > wrote:

> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>
> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>
> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
> to the sidewall.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>
> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

They're TYRES. TIRES means run out of energy. Learn basic English.

--
The most effective way to remember your wife's birthday is to forget it once.

On 12/21/2016 12:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:
>
>> > Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
>> > dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)
> That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.
>
> Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do
> something that I *should* be able to do at home.
>
> We should all be able to:
> a. Mount and dismount a tire at home
> b. Patch a tire at home
> c. Balance a wheel at home

Next time the bike needs new shoes I'll give you a shout. Then there's
patching the tire in the woods or in some random parking lot. I don't
balance them. With knobbies, how would you ever know?

On 12/21/2016 06:57 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
> They're TYRES. TIRES means run out of energy. Learn basic English.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/56064690.cms

How does it feel to be trailing India? Stick a fork in the UK and its
quirky spellings; it's done.

Frank Baron wrote:
> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>
> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>
> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
> to the sidewall.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>
> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

None of those are sidewall related. I will plug/patch a tire with
usable tread right to the edge of the tread mold. You are still in
multiple ply area there.

I won't patch a sidewall on a passenger vehicle but on something like a
tractor, loader or skidder I don't have a problem using a chunk of live
rubber and vulcanizing it in, I've even stitched some together and
patched them. Toss a tube in to hold the air if needed.

--
Steve W.

Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:52:29 -0500, advised:
>
>> And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause
>> problems with tread squirm and tire integrety.
>
> Hi Clare,
>
> I patched five tires with the goopy string plugs, and then cut them flush
> on both sides, and then put a patch on top of the plugs.
>
> I know they sell a one-piece patch-plug, but that seemed like overkill for
> my tests so I just wonder what you recommend for two-piece plugs if a
> one-piece patch-plug isn't around.
>
> Would you do it the way I did it, or differently?

For practice on techniques the cheap string plugs are good. They will
even work on a good repair as long as you prep the hole correctly.

I have a variety of different repair materials depending on the tire and
it's intended use.

A mushroom plug gun that works great as a quick plug, and they get used
a lot on lawn, ATV and golf cart tires.
http://www.stopngo.com/

Good string plugs -
http://safetyseal.com/index.php

combo patch/plugs and boots, plus various other supplies.
http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/

--
Steve W.